“Let us make man in our image, in our likeness.”

Ibrahim,

Why is that all your responses in some way geared towards attacking Christianity or Hinduism?

One can review his many posts and you will see what I mean!

Is this what Islam, according to you, is all about: ATTACK and Hate other religions UNTIL they worship your God and follow your prophet!

You IMPLORE"
"“And there is none like unto Him”"

And, Ibrahim - "there is none like the Man"!

Making ADAM in his "Complete Shape & Form" doesn't make Adam into Allah's equal, or his partner! These are ignorant comments!

In the Quran we have Allah sayimng:

al-Hijr 15:29] "So, when I have made him and have breathed into him of My Spirit, do ye fall down, prostrating yourselves unto him."

Ibrahim,
Allah did make ADAM with his own hand and BREATHED his spirit into him with his owm mouth!

And, in Bukhari Volume 5, Book 58, Number 227:

We read that an-Hazoor ascended to the heavens on a winged white horse with a female face where he met allah. There an-hazoor negotiated & re-negotiated with Allah the prayers from Fifty daily down to the five prayers.

You see Ibrahaim,
All your exhortations are based on:
1) Telling Allah what He can be or not be!
and,
2) Attacking other religions until they become like you ! May God Forbid!

salaam,

[quote]

1.does god care which way we pray to him as long as we are praying.
2.does god only answeres prayers to the devotees who follows islamic way of adressing god?
[/quote]

filhaal:
answer to both your questions is NO!!
it does not matter how you pray, as long as your prayer is devoted to GOD ALONE!!

[quote]
Originally posted by hafeez123:
**In Sahih Muslim, Book 040, Number 6809 we read that **ALLAH is 60 cubits tall and so Adam was also 60 cubits (30 meters) tall

Abu Huraira reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: Allah, the Exalted and Glorious, created Adam in His own image with His length of sixty cubits,....." **
[/quote]

You've quoted the hadith correctly but have used His incorrectly in your above statement.. It changes the meaning.

An upper case His means Allah. A small his implies that the narrator is stating that Adam was made in his complete shape and form .. meaning as a whole.. directly, without any transformations.

I know this hadith then contradicts the Qur'an (so what else is new) which supports the concept of a controlled evolution.

[This message has been edited by PakistaniAbroad (edited August 08, 2002).]

[quote]
Originally posted by hafeez123:
Ibrahim, Why is that all your responses in some way geared towards attacking Christianity or Hinduism?
[/quote]

Ibrahim says: salaams to all

Hafeez123, amazing! Since I did not mention the word Christian or hindu but conveyed that deviants normally preach falsehoods And was specific with regards to the hadith you tried to misquote . And yes I only respond where falsehoods needs to be exposed as falsehoods.

[quote]
One can review his many posts and you will see what I mean!
[/quote]

Ibrahim says : Yes all my posts are made specifically targeting false propagators and deviants. so it should be of little surprise to you, If I responded exposing yours and others follies. And I am not here to entertain nor preach but to expose errors in religious matters, immaterial of what ever faith it may be.

[quote]
Is this what Islam, according to you, is all about: ATTACK and Hate other religions UNTIL they worship your God and follow your prophet!
[/quote]

Ibrahim says: Islam is Islam, the Only religion for mankind that had been deviated /misconstrued into many varying faiths by people like you , but since you don’t seem to know much about Islam but carry on spewing whatever comes to your mind, it takes people like me to counter balance your follies. The law of equality kicks in and in this medium where people like you thrive spreading falsehoods, the only option is to provide the details that will expose such follies.

[quote]
Making ADAM in his "Complete Shape & Form" doesn't make Adam into Allah's equal, or his partner! These are ignorant comments!
[/quote]

Ibrahim says hafeez123! what nonsense are you talking about now, where did I make such comments???? Do you have any problems in your ability to read???

[quote]
In the Quran we have Allah sayimng:
al-Hijr 15:29] "So, when I have made him and have breathed into him of My Spirit, do ye fall down, prostrating yourselves unto him."

Ibrahim, Allah did make ADAM with his own hand and BREATHED his spirit into him with his owm mouth!
[/quote]

Ibrahim says: hafeez123, what nonsense are you talking about now show me where I wrote the above????

[quote]
And, in Bukhari Volume 5, Book 58, Number 227:

We read that an-Hazoor ascended to the heavens on a winged white horse with a female face where he met allah. There an-hazoor negotiated & re-negotiated with Allah the prayers from Fifty daily down to the five prayers.
[/quote]

Ibrahim says : hafeez123! Have you been deluding yourself? Or is this hadith bothering you like it bothers the deviants in Islam?

** BTW do you want me to quote the complete hadith as referenced by the above number and expose you as a fabricator of facts too????**

[quote]
You see Ibrahaim,
All your exhortations are based on:
1) Telling Allah what He can be or not be!
and,
2) Attacking other religions until they become like you ! **May God Forbid!
[/quote]

Ibrahim says; You see hafeez123, you seem to talk nonsense, since all I did was prove that you had no knowledge as to what the hadith you quoted meant, now you end up making a mockery of yourself by saying more irrelevant nonsense and claiming I am attacking other religions in order to escape from your own delusions.

Now, you should have been more careful as to what you say or try to imply in your posts, failing which If not me, someone else by the Grace of Allah (swt) will expose you as an incompetent person talking nonsense about religious matters. Sorry there is no other option, since in this medium every tom dick and harry can say what he/she likes and get away with it so long as they have worded it eloquently .

Was salaam
Ibrahim

** You have built castles in the air, now put some pillars for them **

Firstly on hadith they can't be taken literally. Scholars are the only ones qualified to interpret the meaning of the hadeeths and be careful with which ones you use because you could be using it out of context.
The scholars have given tafsir to tell us what everything means and we should follow that.

Allah can't be comprehended by man. Allah is unlimited, human is limited. You can't link Allah to his creation. There are many tjings we are unable to comprehend such as Heaven, Hell for instance. We are unable to comprehend them so how can we make imagery of Allah when we don't know what Allah is?
That is from logic and for those that are Muslim Allah has forbidden worshipping him through idols for instance. How can we link Allah to a creation, how can Allah be linked to an elephant. It makes no sense.

sheik how do we know god rejects if someone
prays ceratin way or certain objects?

what do muslims expects when they pray to
god ? material things or health while
on this earth or want something after death?

Well as a Muslim, Allah tells me to pray in a certain way so i do it.
The reasons Muslim should pray five times a day is simply because Allah commands us to do so. That is it. Muslims can do duwa for things like material things and for the hereafter,ask for forgiveness etc but the specific five times prayer is just because Allah commands Muslims to do so. This is the method of worship prescribed upon us. Nothing else. Allah tells us to worship him in a certain way so who am i to disagree and worship him in some other way.

[quote]
Originally posted by rvikz:
**sheik how do we know god rejects if someone
prays ceratin way or certain objects?

what do muslims expects when they pray to
god ? material things or health while
on this earth or want something after death?**
[/quote]

SHEIKH,
You should speak the truth!

To rvikz:

You have been on this board debating Islam for a fw years and I have to tell you that you have not LEARNED anything!

HERE frame this response or ETCHED in your memory as this is CORE of what Ibrahaim, Sheiks's creed teaches:

According to these two and those like him:

"Those who accept a religion other than Islam(their Islam) are doomed to hell fire"

Therefore all your prayers and prayers of all ahle kitabi is KUFR!

Because those prayers are not to Allah (their allah) and not said in their allah's house of worship (mosque) but said in houses of kufr!

[quote]
Originally posted by Ibrahim:
"Ibrahim says : Yes all my posts are made specifically targeting false propagators and deviants. "
[/quote]

Dear readers,
Pls make note:
IBRAHIM is here to guide us all, as the mullahs have done to this date, to their blazing path based on hate & ignorance!

IBRAHIM, How do you know that YOU are not the deviant from the PRINCIPLES of peace & equity?

[quote]
from IBRAHIM:
"Ibrahim says; You see hafeez123, you seem to talk nonsense, since all I did was prove that you had no knowledge as to what the hadith you quoted meant, now you end up making a mockery of yourself by saying more irrelevant nonsense and claiming I am attacking other religions in order to escape from your own delusions."
[/quote]

I sincerely WISH these people would desist from poleymics and respond to questions!

This what Ibrahim had posted in his previous post of August 07, 2002 06:21 PM:

"contemplate based on the fact that from ancient times Allah (swt) had repeated over and over again that **Allah (swt) does not have an image or form that man can see or imagine or construct for himself.*

This was a safeguard against the spread of evil or deception concerning Allah (swt) . meaning there can be no imitation or imitating or incarnation or reincarnation of God."*

AFTER I responded to his blarney, with the VERSES that show:
** Allah did make ADAM with his own hands and Breathed His own spirit with his own mouth into ADAM;

and,

the hadith - where an-hazoor ascends into the 7th heaven on a WINGED white horse with a female face where he met allah (obviously, allah had a form when an-hazoor was a guest)**;

IBRAHIM tones down but the cynicism and arrogance is still there. PLEASE refer to his post of August 08, 2002 05:31 AM .

[quote]
from Ibrahim:
"BTW do you want me to quote the complete hadith as referenced by the above number and expose you as a fabricator of facts too????"
[/quote]

IBRAHIM,
please be my guest and do explain in Bukhari Volume 5, Book 58, Number 227 and this time - do not try to change any words!

[quote]
from Ibrahim:
" You have built castles in the air, now put some pillars for them"
[/quote]

Ibrahim,
I do not build castles or lies in the air. To me - all are EQUAL before God!

It is you and your rabid mullahs that preach Inequality and 'castles or heaven in the air' stocked with houris for those who 'believe & BLINDLY follow'your blarney!

[quote]
Originally posted by s_H_e_I_k_H:
Firstly on hadith they can't be taken literally. Scholars are the only ones qualified to interpret the meaning of the hadeeths and be careful with which ones you use because you could be using it out of context.
[/quote]

Actually, this is not entirely correct!
Sunni islam is based on following quran as it appears or literally i.e. word per word! To help understand the quran - we have the hadiths / sunnahs considered DIVINE!

The scholars can write tafseers BUT cannot deviate or EVOLVE from its core literal meanings!

[quote]
from SHEIKH:
Allah can't be comprehended by man. Allah is unlimited, human is limited. You can't link Allah to his creation. There are many tjings we are unable to comprehend such as Heaven, Hell for instance. ....
[/quote]

SHEIKH,
Allah is indeed incomprehensible, so let's leave it that!

But no, you INSIST that you have the monopoly of knowing allah and this allah according to you does have human forms! Pls refer to my response today to Ibrahim!

[quote]
Originally posted by hafeez123:
Dear readers, Pls make note: IBRAHIM is here to guide us all, as the mullahs have done to this date, to their blazing path based on hate & ignorance!
[/quote]

Ibrahim says: salaams to all

Hafeez123, don’t be silly! I am here to clean up the mess you try to create in ignorance and arrogance of what has been revealed to mankind BY Allah (swt). I am not here to teach or preach but to correct your sayings before some other ignorant/deviant like you also ends up being fooled like you and your kind that thrives in this medium, propagating one folly after another without being exposed as a deviant talking nonsense.

Now I cannot stop you from vomiting all over the place on the net but I can warn others about your vomit and by the Grace of Allah (swt) people may realize your incompetence and save themselves from being misguided/misled by people like you.

That is a choice they will have to make.

[quote]
IBRAHIM, How do you know that YOU are not the deviant from the PRINCIPLES of peace & equity?
[/quote]

Ibrahim says : that is easy for those who have sincerity in their hearts and have eyes to see and ears to hear, you see what I say is backed up by revelations and what you say is based on misguidance and your own whims and fancies. Thus when I respond to idiotic suggestions and false propagations like yours, what I say will demolish what you say.

Simply put you have built your castle on air and mine is on solid ground. In other words I defend the scriptures and yours are deceptions of the shaitan which cannot be defended but only arguable based on your own delusions till the cows come home.

[quote]
I sincerely WISH these people would desist from poleymics and respond to questions!
[/quote]

Ibrahim says. You sincerely wish??? O lord you snipped away my many questions in order to avoid them and you talk about sincerity?? Which question has been avoided by me that is relevant to this thread ??

[quote]
This what Ibrahim had posted in his previous post of August 07, 2002 06:21 PM:

  • "contemplate based on the fact that from ancient times Allah (swt) had repeated over and over again that Allah (swt) does not have an image or form that man can see or imagine or construct for himself. This was a safeguard against the spread of evil or deception concerning Allah (swt) . meaning there can be no imitation or imitating or incarnation or reincarnation of God." *

AFTER I responded to his blarney, with the VERSES that show:
Allah did make ADAM ** with his own hands ** and Breathed His own spirit ** with his own mouth** into ADAM;
[/quote]

Ibrahim says: Hafeez123, Stop trying to deceive others and do not add into verses . That amounts to fabrications of revelations and a grave sin when revealed scripture is concerned.

The verse you quoted was

15: 29 "When I have fashioned him (in due proportion) and breathed into him of My spirit fall ye down in obeisance unto him."

Now show me where in the above verse are hands and mouth like a human being is mentioned by Allah (swt) that YOU added on your own????

** So you see, you are a deceiver who adds his own words into revealed /sacred texts , it could be due to ignorance or arrogance , either way it amounts to vomit and not fit for a religious forum or any trust to be placed on you or your words from now on until you show remorse for inventing and fabricating revealed texts. **

Now read why you cannot understand why revelations are revealed in such a way that not all can comprehend them.

3:7 He it is Who has sent down to thee the Book: in it are verses basic or fundamental (of established meaning); they are the foundation of the Book: ** others are allegorical.** But ** those in whose hearts is perversity follow the part thereof that is allegorical seeking discord and searching for its hidden meanings ** but no one knows its hidden meanings except Allah and those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say: "We believe in the Book; the whole of it is from our Lord"; ** and none will grasp the Message except men of understanding.**

Ibrahim says: Hafeez123 , Hence you just proved that you are an untrustworthy person who talks nonsense based on your inability to understand what is being conveyed in the above verses and why what I have said will stand out as being TRUE.

Let me repeat in case it eludes you.

The keyword in all scriptures being: ** “And there is none like unto Him” **

[quote]
the hadith - where an-hazoor ascends into the 7th heaven on a WINGED white horse with a female face where he met allah (obviously, allah had a form when an-hazoor was a guest);
IBRAHIM tones down but the cynicism and arrogance is still there. PLEASE refer to his post of August 08, 2002 05:31 AM .
[/quote]

Ibrahim says; hello hafeez123, I asked you earlier do you understand what you read??? Apparently you don’t seem to understand English ( we can excuse you to a certain extend for your follies in that case) but on the other hand ** If you dared to teach be prepared to learn.**

The hadith refers to the** meeting of prophets in the heavens and discussions with Allah (swt) and NOTHING in that hadith will convey any face to face meeting with Allah (swt) by the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) **

All it establishes is that Allah (swt) talked with the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) just as He has talked with Prophet Moses (pbuh) in the Arabian desert and nothing more.

Such notions like Allah (swt) having an image like a human being are your own imaginations/delusions which you have added into that hadith just like you have added ** WINGED white horse with a female face**

Whereas that hadith only talks about Al-Buraq, a white animal, smaller than a mule and bigger than a donkey

** So how long do you think you will get away with vomiting your follies in a religious forum??? **

If you had just vomited about what you think it would not bother me much, just like rviks and his sayings but since you quoted scripture and tried to misguide others I have to respond and demolish your follies or else others will be misguided like you.

[quote]
IBRAHIM, please be my guest and do explain in Bukhari Volume 5, Book 58, Number 227 and this time - do not try to change any words!

[/quote]

Ibrahim says hafeez123, you need serious help not on what that hadith conveys that will be of no use to you. but on your additions to revealed verses and hadiths that you conjured based on your own delusions which amounts to GRAVE sin , since you spread them around on the net in ignorance and arrogance misguiding others as you have misguided yourself.

[quote]
Ibrahim, I do not build castles or lies in the air. To me - all are EQUAL before God!
[/quote]

Ibrahim says hafeez 123, when will you stop talking nonsense and start THINKING?? , what I am saying is that you have deluded yourself and If you want your delusions to remain INTACT you need to put pillars to support them which you cannot do because they are just delusions based on your own imaginations and had no root in scripture.

[quote]
It is you and your rabid mullahs that preach Inequality and 'castles or heaven in the air' stocked with houris for those who 'believe & BLINDLY follow' your blarney!
[/quote]

Ibrahim says: Now hafeez123, earlier you tried to claim I attacked other religions in order to escape from your follies , that FAILED and you ended up making a fool of yourself ,

now you claim

1) I preach inequality and

2) Castles or heaven in the air stocked with houris and

3) believe and blindly follow me

Ibrahim says : Now I expect you to PROVE all of the above being mentioned by me in this thread , ** failing which you have just branded yourself as a “LIAR” too in addition to the fabrications to revealed texts and incompetence in religious matters that you have advertised in this thread. **

Hope all this helps you to reflect, FEAR Allah (swt) and repent before you die

Was salaam
Ibrahim

** Anger makes you mad and makes you talk nonsense , why not be sensible? **

God is God. Like air is air. You cant fully describe how air looks even if it surrounds you all the time. Same with god, Allah exists in eveything and everywhere. Someone told me God is closer to you that your Jugular vein....so god cannot possibly have shape as he difes the very concept of shape, time and space. For he created it all in the first place.....

Dear all,

Where do they - the Ibrahims of this world get their ego?

[quote]
from Ibrahim:
"Anger makes you mad and makes you talk nonsense , why not be sensible?"
[/quote]

Someone(I forget the name)said :
"if you repeat or keep repeating falsehood it will eventually become the truth!"

This is precisely what Ibrahim keeps doing! He represents the Mullah - the source of decay & everything gone rotten in the world of Islam!

Check out some of his comments from his last post and he accuses me of:
"Anger has made me talk nonsense":

This is Ibrahim talking:

1)Hafeez123, don’t be silly! I am here to clean up the mess you try to create in ignorance and arrogance of ..

2)Now I cannot stop you from vomiting all over the place on the net but I can warn others about your vomit ....

3)Thus when I respond to idiotic suggestions and false propagations like yours, what I say will demolish what you say.

4)In other words I defend the scriptures and yours are deceptions of the shaitan which cannot be defended but only arguable based on your own delusions till the cows come home.

5)So you see, you are a deceiver who adds his own words into revealed /sacred texts , it could be due to ignorance or arrogance , either way it amounts to vomit..

6)Hence you just proved that you are an untrustworthy person who talks nonsense based on your inability to understand ..

7) I asked you earlier do you understand what you read??? Apparently you don’t seem to understand English ( we can excuse you to a certain extend for your follies in that case)..

8)So how long do you think you will get away with vomiting your follies in a religious forum???

9)but since you quoted scripture and tried to misguide others I have to respond and demolish your follies or else others will be misguided like you.

10)Ibrahim says hafeez123, you need serious help not on what that hadith conveys that will be of no use to you.

11)Ibrahim says hafeez 123, when will you stop talking nonsense and start THINKING?? , what I am saying is that you have deluded yourself

12)Now I expect you to PROVE all of the above being mentioned by me in this thread , failing which you have just branded yourself as a “LIAR” too in addition to the fabrications to revealed texts and incompetence in religious matters that you have advertised in this thread.

13)Hope all this helps you to reflect, FEAR Allah (swt) and repent before you die..

That was what his last post is all about!What do you think?

In the previous post of August 08, 2002 05:56 PM on Page 1, he DARED the following:

*"Ibrahim says : hafeez123 do you want me to quote the complete hadith as referenced by the above number and expose you as a fabricator of facts too????" *

This was in reference to the hadith Bukhari Volume 5, Book 58, Number 227 and the followung from that authenticated hadith:

"We read that **an-Hazoor ascended to the heavens on a winged white horse with a female face where he met allah.* There an-hazoor negotiated & re-negotiated with Allah the prayers from Fifty daily down to the five prayers."*

NOTE:

Ibrahim has chosen not to quote the complete hadith instead he chose to say the following:

[quote]
from Ibrahim:
"All it establishes is that Allah (swt) talked with the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) just as He has talked with Prophet Moses (pbuh) in the Arabian desert and nothing more.

Such notions like Allah (swt) having an image like a human being are your own imaginations/delusions which you have added into that hadith just like you have added WINGED white horse with a female face

Whereas that hadith only talks about Al-Buraq, a white animal, smaller than a mule and bigger than a donkey

So how long do you think you will get away with vomiting your follies in a religious forum??? "
[/quote]

Ibrahim,
Pls quote the complete hadith and let the people decide!

MOREOVER,

I care not if Allah has no forms or if he is 30 metre tall, these are the attributions of the sunni scholars.

**I would rather surmise that: Allah is incomprehensible.

To insist, as Ibrahim does, upon what He (Allah) can be or not be - is blasphemy.

[quote]
from Ibrahim:
"15:29 When I have fashioned him (in due proportion) and breathed into him of My spirit fall ye down in obeisance unto him."

Now show me where in the above verse are hands and mouth like a human being is mentioned by Allah (swt) that YOU added on your own????
[/quote]

FOLKS,
Such impertinence from this copy & post specialist.

Maybe, he has been taught only those things that he needs to know to teach his one-sided DOGMA!

DOESN"T he know that there exists other verses:

[HQ Saad 38:75]It is not only that He created human being, but He created our father Adam, the first human being, by His own two hands. (Allah) said: "O Iblis! what prevented you from prostrating yourself to one whom I have created with My two hands? Are you haughty? or are you one of the high (and mighty) ones?"

There you go Ibrahim! Allah has hands. And, since He breathed His own spirit into Adam, Allah did it with His mouth!

Here is another Hadith Qudsi that, like the hadith about the 30 metre tall allah, speaks of in similar terms:

*Hadith Qudsi: I have created Adam on my image (ala Surati). *

Before you opne your mouth, this time, maybe about other verses, I SUGGEST you EDUCATE yourself!

[This message has been edited by hafeez123 (edited August 10, 2002).]

Islam accepts the virgin birth of jesus christ but never explains why it occurred.
is it correct assumption?

Hafeez123

What do think is the way forward for Humanity and what Religion/ System/ Way of Life/ Cult/ Guru etc etc, do you follow?

It would be good to know where you are coming from, before I start responding to your comments in some of the threads, as I would hate to make assumptions!

Look forward to hearing from ya!

[quote]
Originally posted by Shah Jahan:
God is God. Like air is air. You cant fully describe how air looks even if it surrounds you all the time. Same with god, Allah exists in eveything and everywhere.
[/quote]

I agree with you here. Allah is incomrehensible. You should have left it at that and not go into the next part!

[quote]
from Shah Jehan:
Someone told me God is closer to you that your Jugular vein....so god cannot possibly have shape as he difes the very concept of shape, time and space. For he created it all in the first place.....
[/quote]

I keep hearing this that allah cannot occupy space because he created space! That is putting LIMIT upon allah by these mortals!

Maybe, these people know allah better than others or it is DRIVEN in the ONLY EFFORT to discredit christianity!

ALLAH does have a form and does occupy space; So - He can be, contrary to you, be whatever He wants. He is without LIMIT.

You decide:
[HQ Saad 38:75]It is not only that He created human being, but He created our father Adam, the first human being, by His own two hands. (Allah) said: "O Iblis! what prevented you from prostrating yourself to one whom I have created with My two hands? Are you haughty? or are you one of the high (and mighty) ones?"

[HQ 15:29] "When I have fashioned him (in due proportion) and breathed into him of My spirit fall ye down in obeisance unto him."

Here is another Hadith Qudsi that, like the hadith about the 30 metre tall allah, speaks of in similar terms:

Hadith Qudsi: I have created Adam on my image (ala Surati).

Hafiz123: Hats off to you for atleast standing your ground. The technique of haranguing and physically threatening by the mullahas works very effectively in the physical world, especially in the muslim world. On the internet, the technique is not as effective but still quite annoying. So keep it up!

[quote]
Originally posted by hafeez123:

[quote]
Dear all, Where do they - the Ibrahims of this world get their ego?
[/quote]

Ibrahim says: Salaams to all

hafeez 123, this thread is not about my ego but about your foolish suggestions which you implied and pointed the finger at the Qur’an and hadith whereas those verses that you point to, does not convey such a thing.

Now I have already proven that you fabricated the quotes by adding into the quoted verse and hadith.

Do you think you will be human enough to show otherwise? Failing which I have already done my job, which was to establishe that you are a misguided/deviant vomiting your follies on the board .

[quote]
This is precisely what Ibrahim keeps doing! He represents the Mullah - the source of decay & everything gone rotten in the world of Islam!
[/quote]

Ibrahim says: hafeez 123, Now you add I represent the mullah ?? which mullah do I represent?? So again in your haste to escape you snipped away all my questions only to make new accusations, now what does that tell us?

My point being , You added things into hadiths and Qur’anic ayahs when cornered , you start claiming I have attacked Christianity and Hinduism, after which you claim I have preached inequality and talked about heavens in air with houris and I have been instructing others to follow me blindly. To all this now you add, I represent the mullah! ???

Than you go even further in order to switch the scene to repost what I have said concerning you, rather than proving what you have said.

Now so far, you have on your own proven to all the readers , that

1) you will alter/modify verses as you please

2) you will lie

3) you will deceive

Now I have proven this much in this thread and I see NO rebuttal from you concerning such things, meaning you are indeed a fabricator of revealed texts and will lie and deceive to promote your own delusions.
Which means I have achieved my objective.

[quote]
Ibrahim has chosen not to quote the complete hadith instead he chose to say the following:
[/quote]

Ibrahim says hafeez123, I am shocked that you are still having problems understanding what I am saying.

You see, when you claimed that such and such hadith (Sahih Bukhari 5:227) had these words “WINGED white horse with a female face “ ** and I have conveyed it says no such thing.

I have proven you are a liar and fabricator, is this too hard for you to understand??? **

Let me run this past you again, since English does not get through to you too well , that hadith has no such words as mentioned by you { “WINGED white horse with a female face”}

now show the readers that you did not invent this but is actually mentioned in that particular hadith you say is having such words??

** Last chance to come clean failing which you branded yourself a LIAR and untrustworthy person **

[quote]
Ibrahim, Pls quote the complete hadith and let the people decide!
[/quote]

Ibrahim says: what! I will be led by you to spin this thread into another ?? Sorry, you quote it and show us, it has such words, failing which I have established you are a deviant and a liar who has no fears in infusing his own words into sacred texts.

[quote]
I care not if Allah has no forms or if he is 30 metre tall, these are the attributions of the sunni scholars.
[/quote]

Ibrahim says : hafeez123, you see it was you who claimed Allah (swt) was 30 meter tall, when that hadith says Adam (as) was 60 cubits and that hadith you quoted was fabricated/misquoted by you which I corrected earlier. The only reason for me to respond in this thread was because you in ignorance or arrogance infused your own words into that hadith.

[quote]
I would rather surmise that: Allah is incomprehensible.
[/quote]

Ibrahim says: hafeez123, what you surmise has no consequence for Muslims since you are a deviant who lies and invents on his/her own but what the scriptures conveys, that , when quoted accurately will convey that

112:4 ** “And there is none like unto Him” **

[quote]
To insist, as Ibrahim does, upon what He (Allah) can be or not be - is blasphemy.
[/quote]

Ibrahim says; hello hafeez123! still dreaming?? or has this still eluded you

Read!

112;4 ** “And there is none like unto Him” **

[quote]
FOLKS, Such impertinence from this copy & post specialist. Maybe, he has been taught only those things that he needs to know to teach his one-sided DOGMA! DOESN"T he know that there exists other verses:
[/quote]

Ibrahim says; hafeez123, in other words you lied earlier, when you said verse 15:29 was having such words like hands and mouth mentioned in it??? Which was false !

Now you did not quote any other verse and

but did claimed this :-

[quote]
AFTER I responded to his blarney, with the VERSES that show:

Allah did make ADAM ** with his own hands ** and Breathed His own spirit ** with his own mouth** into ADAM;
[/quote]

Ibrahim says : Instead of admitting to your deceiving ways you now say

[quote]
[HQ Saad 38:75]It is not only that He created human being, but He created our father Adam, the first human being, by His own two hands. (Allah) said: "O Iblis! what prevented you from prostrating yourself to one whom I have created ** with My two hands?** Are you haughty? or are you one of the high (and mighty) ones?"
[/quote]

Ibrahim says : Firstly 38:75 does not include your own words as quoted above, which means you will not hesitate to add anything you like into the Qur’an to misguide others or you just cannot be trusted even when you quote any scripture.

Now I already told you why you cannot understand the Qur’an when I quoted Verse 3:7, where Allah (swt) conveyed that some verses in the Qur’an are allegorical and only those who have knowledge will understand them but here you demonstrate once again your ignorance .

The above ayah simply means that Adam (as) was created by Allah (swt) alone and no one else except Him was the Creator . This is what the earlier ayah also conveyed in essence but you added the hands and mouth to it

Which is why I have to insist that you are a deviant who fears not but adds his own construct into revealed texts and sacred texts ( due to ignorance or arrogance) in order to deceive others..

[quote]
There you go Ibrahim! Allah has hands. And, since He breathed His own spirit into Adam, Allah did it with His mouth!
[/quote]

Ibrahim says: hafeez123, Don’t be silly, The Qur’an has allegorical verses in them , such that mankind may be able to understand them . Your problem is that you have deluded yourself into adding your own words into such verses to construct your own follies.

I suggest you read

7: 11 It is ** We who created you** and gave you shape; ** then We bade** the angels bow down to Adam and they bowed down; not so Iblis; he refused to be of those who bow down.

Ibrahim says: the above verse does not mean Allah (swt) has partners, even though it says ‘We” created Adam. Similarly when an ayah says Allah (swt) has two hands it does not mean Allah (swt) is like a human being having two hands ** but means it is was done by Allah (swt) alone. **

Now let me point you the correct direction as to How Allah (swt) creates.

Read and contemplate and avoid making a fool of yourself even though it is anonymous in this medium.

3: 59 This similitude of Jesus before Allah is as that of Adam: ** He created him from dust then said to him: "Be" and he was.**

Ibrahim says : thus all you delusions about hands and mouth amounts to Nothing since when Allah (swt) intends a thing He only says “BE” and it will come to pass

In case you will still remain deluded read!

36:82 Verily when He intends a thing ** His command is "Be" and it is! **

83 So glory to Him in Whose hands is the dominion of all things; and to Him will ye be all brought back

Ibrahim says: hafeez123 notice the hands in the above ayah??? Now work on it you may someday find out what that means, when Allah (swt) so willed.

[quote]
Here is another Hadith Qudsi that, like the hadith about the 30 metre tall allah, speaks of in similar terms:
Hadith Qudsi: I have created Adam on my image (ala Surati).
Before you opne your mouth, this time, maybe about other verses, I SUGGEST you EDUCATE yourself!
[/quote]

Ibrahim says: Hafeez123! before you quote anymore hadiths or verses to delude others, ** make sure you quote them as is and give full references for them** failing which I won’t be so tolerant or hesitate to flatly call you a liar from now on.

The choice is yours, IF you quote any verse or hadith, make sure you quote only what it says and not what your evil mouth has conjured and added into them and give full references for them

I also expect to see answers for my earlier questions ( failing which I only need to address you as liar and deviant from now on, which I have proven in this thread. )

Sorry this is a religious forum, not a chat or fun site where you can talk according to your whims and fancies about scripture. I have already pointed to three different places where you have willfully added your own fabrications/conjectures into revealed and scared texts.

** Let me make them clear to you once again. **

1) you claimed Allah (swt) was 30 meters tall by misquoting a hadith

2) you claimed Allah (swt) had mouth and hands by misquoting and adding into Verse 15:9

3) you claimed there was a winged horse with a female face by misquoting a hadith

4) Now you say another hadith says such and such without any reference or full texts

In addition to all this you have accused me of

1) Attacking Christianity and Hinduism

2) Preaching inequality and preaching

3) Castles or heaven in the air stocked with houris

4) To believe and blindly follow me

5) I represent the mullah

6) I am a Copy & post specialist

Ibrahim says: now let us see you have an ounce of trustworthiness or sincerity in you. Which means you have to establish your above statements as true, failing which as I have said, you are a deviant and a liar and I need not elaborate any further as this thread establishes it .

Was salaam
Ibrahim

** you have built castles in the air . now put foundations under them **

This is veering off topic people!

[This message has been edited by Sugar and spice (edited August 11, 2002).]

Dear all,

Pls allow me to surmise so, we know why we got to this stage!

First I have no issue whether Allah is visible or not. I have issues when someone suggests - What Allah can be or not be and in the manner Ibrahim did and continues to!

This exchange got started on page 1 when I posted, in response to the question asked, hadith Sahih Bukhari: Volume 8, Book 74, Number 246:

Narrated Abu Huraira:

The Prophet said, "Allah created Adam in his complete shape and form (directly), sixty cubits (about 30 meters) in height.

To read the complete hadith, pls go to Page 1.

I suggest you read Ibrahim's response which starts as:

"For those who may be misled by the suggestions of the shaitan, let me reveal the meanings in this hadith..."

Then he proceeds, like he does in EVERY of his post, to attack Christianity & Hinduism!

I posted the following to further substantiate the point that Adam was created by Allah in his image:

[HQ 15:29] "So, when I have made him and have breathed into him of My Spirit, do ye fall down, prostrating yourselves unto him."

and, also this sahih Bukhari:

Bukhari Volume 5, Book 58, Number 227:

We read that "an-Hazoor ascended to the heavens on a winged white horse with a female face where he met allah. There an-hazoor negotiated & re-negotiated with Allah the prayers from Fifty daily down to the five prayers."

Our self-proclaimed expert on islam had this to say:

  • "Ibrahim says: Hafeez123, Stop trying to deceive others and do not add into verses . That amounts to fabrications of revelations and a grave sin when revealed scripture is concerned.*

The verse you quoted was

15: 29 "When I have fashioned him (in due proportion) and breathed into him of My spirit fall ye down in obeisance unto him."

Now show me where in the above verse are hands and mouth like a human being is mentioned by Allah (swt) that YOU added on your own????

So, I SHOWED him:

[HQ Saad 38:75]It is not only that He created human being, but **He created our father Adam, the first human being, by His own two hands.* (Allah) said: "O Iblis! what prevented you from prostrating yourself to one whom I have created with My two hands? Are you haughty? or are you one of the high (and mighty) ones?" *

I also provided a HADITH QUDSI that affims the above:

*Hadith Qudsi: I have created Adam on my image (ala Surati). *

This must have shocked because he was unaware of these two verses!

How does our scholar react? In the following way:
"Now so far, you have on your own proven to all the readers , that

1) you will alter/modify verses as you please

2) you will lie

3) you will deceive "

Finally,

If Adam was made in Allah's image dosn't make Adam into Allah's equal or his partner? These are ignorant comments!

*I have no doubt that the motive behind Ibrahim's telling Allah what he can be or not be is to DISCREDIT the christian belief in their Lord Jesus and/or the hindu belief in manifestations of many FORMS of the One God

I would like to end this with what zaksnoor posted on Page 1:

**No Limitations for God*
"We do not believe that God the Almighty has any limitations, nor can He ever be limited to any specific dimensions. What we know about God is that just as He is there on the heavens so He is there on the earth as well. .......
......He is very much manifest but at the same time He is very much hidden. The more a man acquires true purification the more he begins to understand God."

(Malfoozat vol. 10, pg. 426) *