A GREAT Loss (Are you involved)

[AQ]

Re: A GREAT Loss (Are you involved)

@Crescent_

Assalamalikum, peace bro,

How are you Umair :-)???

@Crescent_

That article was written by Muhammad ibn Adam al-Kawthari a prominent sunni scholar in the UK.

Few points:

• I do not know the scholar personally or every heard about him so I was only commenting on the understanding I was getting.

• I do not question credibility of any scholar because I am not entitled to. I am not a scholar myself but by attaching the title of scholar, no one is supposed to be presumed the ultimate authority on ISLAM. The authority remains with Allah and Rasool …

• We should be careful before endorsing anything just becaues IT CAME FROM A SCHOLAR. Remember Quran mentions Ulama-e-Soo as well. Please, know that I, by no means, calling anyone with that title here.

• I know many prominent scholars who have given fatwaas for Jihad being only a defensive war whereas the SEERAH of the Prophet:saw2: from the history, it is evident that The first Ghazwa - AL Ghazwat-ul-Badr was a direct consequence of an OFFENSIVE Guirella attack by Muslims on the Trade-caravan of Makkans coming from Syria.

@Crescent_

1. The person who questioned Umar r.a., was infact someone who corrected him.

on the other hand, he was corrected by the Ameer-ul-Momineen

The story goes like this. Sydena Umer:razi: was giving a sermon when a person stood up in the middle of the sermon and announce that he refuses to listen to the Ameer because he believes that Ameer did not do the justice with the booty of the war. His point was that the “kurta” ameer was wearing came from the booty of the war and it looked like that ameer had gotten more than others. Ameer was a tall person and the size of cloth everyone had received, it was impossible for ameer to have a Kurta made for him. Ameer brought his son who gave witness that the son had given his part of booty to him. After that, the issue was resolved.

@Crescent_

There was no rebellion against Umar r.a., I believe it was a woman.

The key word is Questioning of what seemed to be UNJUST.
The person was a man, and not a woman.

@Crescent_

And Umar r.a. accepted.

Subhan Allah.

@Crescent_

The issue here is, if the leader is not telling you to commit sin, then there is no need to rebel, if he is oppressive, then it is because of our own faults.

No one is talking about being rebellious. The logic that because we are sinners, hence, the leader is oppressive is quite confusing. It suggests that there is no point correcting one’s wrong doings or perhaps suggests that make yourself a pious person and leader will become/be replaced with a JUST ruler?

Where does the concept of “Am’r Bil Ma’aroof wa Nahi anil Munkar” go?
Should we place ourselves among the people with the lowest of Iman who do not use hand/force to fight oppression or use tongue for that matter; where Quran testifies: Al Fitnato Asshaddo Min al Qat’L that is Fitnah is bigger than murder…???

An unjust ruler comes in power because of the majority being sinner, does not mean that there is no one who is pious, or does it?

@Crescent_

However if he forces you into disobeying Allah swt, then you can do as you wish.

Agreed.

@Crescent_

2. As for Imam hussain r.a., thats a deep topic, and Id rather not touch on that. Different sources will tell you different things.

I do no know what do you mean by different sources. For all I know there are two sources, One Shia and one sunni.

I know Sunni perspective and in the words of Iqbal:

Sidq-e-Khaleel bhee hai Ishq, Sabar-e-Hussain bhee hai Ishq
Maa’rkaa-e-Wajood maiN badar-O-Hunayen bhee hai Ihsq

@Crescent_

I know it was on backbiting, but just thought Id post this on challenging authority. It wasn’t written by me, but imam

so, you thougt backbiting is similar to challenging authority… By the way, may I remind you brother, Back Biting does mean CORRECT information being shared otherwise, it becomes a much greater sin of BOHTAAN.

@Crescent_

It is an accepted fact among the Ahl al-Sunnah wa al-Jama’ah that to challenge authority is generally not permissible.

Reminds me of Iqbal again:

Mullah ko jo hai Hind maiN sajdaY kee ijaazat
NaadaaN yeh samajhtaa hai kaY Islaam hai Aazaad!

@Crescent_

Imam al-Tahawi (Allah have mercy on him) states in his famous al-Aqida al-Tahawiyya:

@Crescent_

“We do not recognize uprising against our Imam or those in charge of our affairs even if they are unjust, nor do we wish evil on them, nor do we withdraw from following them. We hold that obedience to them is part of obedience to Allah, The Glorified, and is therefore obligatory as long as they do not order us to commit sins. We pray for their guidance and their wrongdoings to be pardoned”. (al-Aqida al-Tahawiyya with the Sharh of al-Ghunaymi, P. 110-111).

Is this a personal opinion of Imam Rahemaullah or is it based on Quran and Sunnah?

@Crescent_

The commentators of al-Aqida al-Tahawiyya have mentioned many evidences for this. Allama al-Ghunaymi al-Maydani and other commentators on this work elaborated on this topic by mentioning the relevant evidences.

Allah Most High says:

1. “O you who believe! Obey Allah, and obey the Messenger, and those charged
   with authority among you” (al-Nisa, 59).

and ofcourse, this ayah has a context that obey those charged with authority so long as they do not order you anything against Islam.. right?

@Crescent_

2. Sayyiduna Abu Huraira (Allah be pleased with him) narrates that the Messenger
   of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) said: “Whoever obeys me, obeys Allah,
   and whoever disobeys me, disobeys Allah. And whoever obeys my ruler (amir),
   obeys me, and whoever disobeys my ruler, disobeys me” (Sahih al-Bukhari, no.
   6718 & Sahih Muslim, no. 1835).

key words: obeys my amir... I also recall a hadeeth where Prophet:saw2: mentioned the RULE of his Khulafa-e-Rashideen and in another hadeeth the time period is mentioned as 30+ years. By cross referencing, it can very well be concluded that the hadeeth quoted refers to The Four rightly guided Caliphs and since they were rightly guided, there is no reason that they would have ever gone against Islam.

@Crescent_

3. Sayyiduna Anas ibn Malik (Allah be pleased with him) narrates that the
   Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) said: “Listen to and obey
   your ruler, even if he is an Abyssinian slave whose head looks like a raisin”
   (Sahih al-Bukhari, no. 6723 & Sahih Muslim).

does the hadith mention that obey him if he orders you something unjust?

@Crescent_

4. Sayyiduna Ibn Abbas (Allah be pleased with him) narrates that the Messenger
   of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) said: “Whoever sees his ruler doing
   something he disapproves of, he should be patient, for no one separates from
   the (Muslim) group even for a span and then dies, except that he will die a
   death of (pre-Islamic) ignorance. (Sahih al-Bukhari, no. 6724 & Sahih Muslim,
   no. 1849).

The hadith is very well talking about something of what the person disapproves on the basis of personal opionion and not becaue he finds it against Islam. The difference of opinions in executing same type of work do arise. The point is that hadith does not forbid to be patient on seeing some Unislamic ruling… or does it?

@Crescent_

5. Sayyiduna Abd Allah (Allah be pleased with him) narrates that the Messenger
   of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) said: “A Muslim must listen to
   and obey (the order of his ruler) in things that he likes or dislikes, as long
   as he is not ordered to commit a sin. **If he is ordered to disobey Allah, then **
   **there is no listening and no obedience. **(Sahih al-Bukhari, no. 6725 & Sahih
   Muslim, no. 1839).

Sadaqa Rasoolulah:saw2: wa howa Sadiq al Masdooq.

So it means, challenging authority in such matters is a duty?

@Crescent_

The above evidences are clear in establishing the fact that one must obey
the ruler even if he is corrupt or a sinner (fasiq).

ummm… clear evidences for that conclusion…?? errrmmm!!

@Crescent_

The reason for this, in
the words of Allama al-Ghunaymi, is that, there have been many corrupt rulers
in Islamic history and never did the predecessors (salaf) rebel against
them, rather they used to submit to their rule and establish Jumu’ah and Eid
prayers with their permission. Also, piety is not a pre-requisite for leadership.
(Sharh al-Ghunaymi, p. 110).

That is more like a personal opinion through LOGIC.

@Crescent_

Other scholars emphasize that uprising against corrupt leadership results
in more tribulation and destruction then the initial oppression of the ruler.

That negates the teaching and Sunnah of almost all Prophets where the themselves uprose against corruption.

So, then, why even the pious people of SABT (Sabaath), who did not say a word to the corrupts of their nation, were destroyed as a punishment with others?

@Crescent_

With forbearance and tolerance, one’s sins will be forgiven.

True but raising voice against oppression is Jihaad-bil-Lissaan and it is also reason for getting rewards besides tolerance and patience…

@Crescent_

And in reality,
the corrupt ruler is imposed by Allah due to our own wrongdoings, thus it becomes
necessary that we repent and seek Allah’s forgiveness coupled with good actions,

and a good action will be in the words of Prophet that stop the oppression with your hand…

@Crescent_

as Allah Most High says: “Whatever misfortune happens to you, is because of
the things your hands have wrought” (42:30)…….. And He says: “Thus do we make
the wrongdoers turn to each other, because of what they earn” (6:129).

so, does it mean that once an oppressor becomes a ruler, we should just wait for our punishment???

@Crescent_

Therefore,
if a nation wants to free themselves from the oppression of their leader, they
must refrain themselves from oppressing others.

true but following is a must along with it.

@Crescent_

**However, if the ruler commands to do something that is a sin, then there **
**is no obedience, as mentioned earlier in light of the many evidences found in **
**the Sunnah. **

**Also, uprising and challenging a corrupt ruler becomes permissible when **
**he openly transgresses in a way that his action is not open to any interpretation, **
provided one has the means to do so.

[Monk]

Re: A GREAT Loss (Are you involved)

khushaamdeed brother!!

[Submission_To_Peace]

Re: A GREAT Loss (Are you involved)

May Allah (swt) forgive me if I am wrong, but following is what I sincerely understand/feel from the lives of the Prophets, Suhabas, saints…etc.

1. Never did they participate in arguements against the character, habbits, personal lifestyles…etc. of even the worst rulers of their times, instead they prayed for their guidence & (if necessary) took “practical” measures (with wisdom) that were “USEFUL” to the nation & humanity. Even if they spoke against anyone, it was merely to warn people of good and bad (with very limited words), WITHOUT pointing at any one in “particular”.

2. They spent “MOST” of their time in encouraging good and discouraging bad with their own practical examples. Even if they felt the “need” to warn people against the actions/ deeds of anyone, it used to be a very SHORT statement with pain in their voice & heart (WITHOUT enjoying, mocking, de-grading), without DIRECTLY mentioning ANY names. BUT they did use to pray “from heart” (with tears in their eyes) by specifically mentioning to Allah even people like Abu Jehal to be guided towards Islam because they didn’t have any “PREJUDICE” against him, but disliked his actions. A doctor never hates the patient but the disease he is suffering from, so instead of mentioning to other people, the doctor tries to cure his disease by making efforts along with “sincere prayers to ALLAH (swt)”.

I am sure that if all of these years instead of criticizing had we spent our valuable time in praying for the guidence of the Rulers and the Ummah, and performed from our heart (& to our level best) the duty of the Prophets (encouraging good, discouraging bad and making ourselves a practical example) Allah (swt) would have turned around the hearts of even the most cruel rulers.

The Prophet (saw) made his place in the hearts of stone hearted rulers not by criticizing them, but through a “Beautiful Character” which couldn’t get unnoticed because of the attraction Allah (swt) blessed it with.

^ Having said this, I do understand that we should educate people to be able to differenciate between good and bad rulers, politicians (whoever effect their practical lives ) BUT it should NOT be more than required.** The best way of sincere criticizm would be to chose a way /source by which our words could reach the person himself regarding whom we are talkig, like that youngster did to Musharraf on a public forum.** Mostly we get carried away with words that are of no benefit to either the nation or humanity.

Allah knows BEST!

p.s. JazakAllah Khair everyone for sharing your kind words of wisdom and discouraging back biting. I really appreciate different perspectives here which educates me to look at the matter from different angles. (ALhamdulillah)

Very well said, thanks Pinks, AQ (May Allah reward you for kind prayers and words of encouragement), X2, crescent_ for detailed replies concerning the topic.

[AQ]

Re: A GREAT Loss (Are you involved)

Thanks STP:

As usual, your response was nothing but source of guidance :)

Jazak Allah Khair and AsSalaam-O-Alaikum.

[Submission_To_Peace]

Re: A GREAT Loss (Are you involved)

Walaikum Assalam AQ brother,

JazakAllah Khair for your sincere words of encouragement. I don't deserve appreciation, but it is an honor for me to be encouraged by pious people like you (Masha'Allah) who have been a source of inspiration, guidence and motivation for me since the time I joined this forum.

May Allah (swt) accept your efforts and put Barakah in you.:)

It is nice to see you back. May Allah (swt) bless you and your family with all the blessings of this life and hereafter.

[AQ]

Re: A GREAT Loss (Are you involved)

Thanks STP but I certainly do not deserve all that praise for praises remain for Allah and His Rasool:saw2: … We are but ignorant sinners at the end who need guidance in any walk of life.
Thanks for such beautiful supplications and I pray the same for you brother.

Anyway, so, what do you have to say regarding my FIRST post? Isn’t that correct from Islamic point of view given that there is a hadeeth of Prophet:saw2: that The greatest Jihaad is to speak up in front of an unjust ruler.

[Dushwari]

Re: A GREAT Loss (Are you involved)

totally agree. excellent topic, STP.
but the sad thing and what is so hurtful is that those whom you thought idealized with you, the same that you do but they turn out to be weak.
idealizing is a noble thing. yet, people must live up to the ideals they idealize.

yet the public figures are nothing. they are working in their fields to either so something good for others or bad. they even hurt themselves in the process.

what must be recognized is that each person who individually idealizes a good ideal, must live it too.
or simply not deceive others by stating some ideal when that person cannot live it.
sadly people get easily influenced.
weaker characters and weak in resolve, are the first ones to go that route of self-deception and then there comes a time when it is that much harder for them to regain trust an help, regard and honesty in kind as they lose it before they even fully gain it.

best,
Dushwari

@Submission_To_Peace

It seems that people like Britney Spears , Dr. Tahir-ul-Qadri ,** Imran khan** , Nadia Khan, Altaf Hussain , Meera, Shoaib Akhatar, Qazi Hussain, Musharraf **, **Nawaz Sharif, Bush, Zardari, Maulanas, Dr Zakir Naik, Actor, Actress, Singer (A, B, C.....X, Y, Z), *might be clenching a lot of collars on the day of Judgement, when the *"Hisaab Kitaab" would be done in front of Allah (swt). I would have to bear a GREAT Loss by giving away my good deeds to them and taking in return their bad deeds. (May Allah forgive my sins).

At times we spend hours in criticizing whom we don't like or supporting whom we like / idealize. Celebrities, actors, sportsmen, scholars, politicians....etc. Isn't it better to discuss "ideas and concepts" rather than people.

[Submission_To_Peace]

Re: A GREAT Loss (Are you involved)

@AQ. Brother I agree, no doubt all the praises remain for Allah (swt) and the Prophet (saw). It was just that I wanted to show my gratitude for your efforts and sincerity which Allah (swt) blessed you with. (Masha'Allah)

Yes, I read your post, and totally agreed. Infact there is a verse in Quran also which mentions that Allah (swt) would reward those who say "Kalma-e-Haq" infront of "Zalim Badshah" (may Allah (swt) forgive me if I made any mistake)

The intention behind my post was to humbly request people who spend hours talking against Musharraf & other leaders (like talking for the sake of criticizing, with bad language & a mocking manner while they can spend that time in creating awareness among people regarding the TRUTH )

I personally am not a fan of Musharraf but I feel that the best way to do anything against "his policy" would be to take a step "Within the limits of Sunnah" which is not only effective against "his policy", but also according to the moral standards/ rules that the Prophet (saw) has set for us. If we want to express our views, we should mainly talk about his policy and how it has effected muslims in Pakistan, and avoid going to an extent where our words do not serve any useful purpose but only become backbiting of a leader.

p.s. The above post mainly elaborated "Jihad of words" (with wisdom). IF Allah (swt) blesses me with a chance of doing a "Jihad of action" against an unjust ruler under the leadership of a true leader, let say someone desperately needed in present times, like Imam Mehdi, it would be an honor for me to participate in that Jihad.

@ Dushwari sister. Sister, I respect and appreciate your perspective, but I am a bit confused about idealization. As far as I know "Shakhsiyat parasti" is haraam in Islam. We could only be "inspired" by people whom we look forward to in terms of good deeds. Besides I remember a hadith that on the day of judgement everyone would be raised with the ones whom they loved the most. I am not sure most of us muslims (in present times) would be raised with the prophets, suhabas, saints,....etc. or with some actor, sportmen, actress, singer,....etc. because when we appreciate someone we spent "a lot" of our time discussing them.

[smooth_guy]

Re: A GREAT Loss (Are you involved)

When did commenting and discussing the governor and opposition politicians fall under GHIBUT ? They rule public and we have all the rights to discuss them.

[hareem01]

Re: A GREAT Loss (Are you involved)

So we can't dis a muslim for hanging around with a whore in public when other muslims are becoming proud of his unislamic actions? (I used the example of the recent story of a British muslim and a non muslim singer/dancer)

[Submission_To_Peace]

Re: A GREAT Loss (Are you involved)

Brother I agree we (the public) have a right to discuss them, till the time we keep the limits set by our prophet (saw), i.e. not using degarding words, but only discussing to create awareness among people regarding the rulers. At times we get carried away with talks (without having authentic inofrmation) which might not serve any benefit to the general public but only create a bad image of the leader.

Suppose I keep forwarding e-mails to people which shows information against a leader and on the day of judgement it is proved that the email was fake, then I would be held from the collar by that leader infront of Allah, where I would have to pay the price of Gheebah in terms of either giving away my good deeds or taking his bad deeds.

[Gamma_Dilation]

Re: A GREAT Loss (Are you involved)

this is the funniest post ever. Move this to the joke section. Submission To Peace, brag about your terrorist ways in the religion section. Leave the general section to the peace loving individuals.

Moderator can you please warn this guy upto 90%. Sick of this bullcrap

[Submission_To_Peace]

Re: A GREAT Loss (Are you involved)

[quote]

So we can't dis a muslim for hanging around with a whore in public when other muslims are becoming proud of his unislamic actions? (I used the example of the recent story of a British muslim and a non muslim singer/dancer)

[/quote]

Sister we don't need to dis-respect or de-grade him, he is already doing it himself. We just need to tell people the difference between the good and bad without mentioning names. Let people themselves judge.

What we can do is to either tell "that" muslim ourselves that he is not doing something good, or if we can't do that, than we can at least pray to Allah to bless him and "that" girl towards the right path.

IF we would make fun of them, then Allah (swt) might punish us by replacing the situation of their heart with that of our hearts, that is blessing them with guidence and vice versa. Human being is too weak. Let us pray to Allah to bless us with the strength and wisdom to maintain "Imaan" and bless others to achieve it whoever lacks "Imaan"

I remember a hadith in which Allah blessed a prostitute with guidence when she did "tauba" and a great scholar was misguided because of his arrogance.

May Allah (swt) forgive us all and bless us towards the right path

[goodnews]

Re: A GREAT Loss (Are you involved)

@Submission_To_Peace

**I remember a hadith in which Allah blessed a prostitute with guidence when she did “tauba” **and a great scholar was misguided because of his arrogance.

May Allah (swt) forgive us all and bless us towards the right path

Waisy aisi kahanion sy tu yehi nateeja niklta hy ky sab ortin twaifin ban jaain on ki bakhshish ky ziada chances hain naik mardon or orton ky muqably main:hoonh:

[Submission_To_Peace]

Re: A GREAT Loss (Are you involved)

May Allah (swt) forgive me if I said anything wrong, but I would share what I sincerly feel from heart.

Even if we are talking against a person considered as "worst on earth" by ALL the People of the world, Allah (swt) does NOT like a criticizm filled with "hate" or "prejudice", it should be with tears of sincerity for that person, with the intentions that may Allah (swt) guide that person towards the right path, and also guide us to the right path.

[Submission_To_Peace]

Re: A GREAT Loss (Are you involved)

@goodnews

Waisy aisi kahanion sy tu yehi nateeja niklta hy ky sab ortin twaifin ban jaain on ki bakhshish ky ziada chances hain naik mardon or orton ky muqably main:hoonh:

oh..no sister, actually the purpose of such stories is only to give hope to those people who spent all their life doing so much wrong that they lose hope in Allahs mercy.

BUT ofcourse prevention is ALWAYS better than cure, but “that prevention” should not give rise to arrogance, and “that cure” should lead to repentance in front of Allah and sincere determination of not repeating mistakes / sins

[Sharaabi]

Re: A GREAT Loss (Are you involved)

@Crescent_

1. As for Imam hussain r.a., thats a deep topic, and Id rather not touch on that. Different sources will tell you different things.

Okay...i'll give you another one.

Why did Abdullah bin Zubair (rah), a Companion and son of Asma bin Abu Bakr (rah), rebel against Hajjaj bin Yousuf?

[Mirch]

Re: A GREAT Loss (Are you involved)

@Gamma_Dilation

this is the funniest post ever. Move this to the joke section. Submission To Peace, brag about your terrorist ways in the religion section. Leave the general section to the peace loving individuals.

Moderator can you please warn this guy upto 90%. Sick of this bullcrap

Yo Grandma, sorry Gamma,
I do not agree with the point of view of Submission to Peace either but I do not like the way you are behaving. STP is not preaching any terrorist ways in this post. But he is asking a genuine question about the issues he is confused.
If you do not like this thread you do not have to read and respond. If you do respond be respectful please.
Having said that STP ,
ideas and concepts come from people, leaders , celebrities , etc. So it is quite appropriate to see who is saying what he/she is saying. To validate an idea or concept we need to look at the person presenting it.

Why do we believe that There is no Allah but Allah and Mohammad:saw2: is his messenger ? Because he was a man of good character , well behaved person and had very good manner. The personality behind our religion is a powerful one with a very powerful message.

Why is it appropriate to discuss Britney Spears , Dr. Tahir-ul-Qadri ,** Imran khan** , Nadia Khan, Altaf Hussain , Meera, Shoaib Akhatar, Qazi Hussain, **Musharraf **, Nawaz Sharif, Bush, **Zardari, Maulanas, Dr Zakir Naik, Actor, Actress, Singer (A, B, C…X, Y, Z). **
Because these people are either proponents of certain ideology or support certain ideology which touches the lives of millions of humans , they are heroes or role models of millions anything they say of do has bearing on the lives of millions of their fans.
We have the duty to point out what is good or bad about their ideology , their view points and what is good or bad about whatever they represent. I would agree to the extent that while we are discussing them we should hold our tongue and not use any bad or abusive language.

[Sharaabi]

Re: A GREAT Loss (Are you involved)

@Crescent_

However, if the ruler commands to do something that is a sin, then there **is no obedience, as mentioned earlier in light of the many evidences found in ***the Sunnah. *

Also, uprising and challenging a corrupt ruler becomes permissible when ** *he openly transgresses in a way that his action is not open to any interpretation, *provided one has the means to do so.**

This is exactly what the rulers of today are doing. Throwing the Qurans behind their backs, and ruling by secular laws. Legalizing that which is haraam and banning that which is Fardh.

Todays rulers are guilty of apostacy by two ways. By replacing the Shariah and by allying the Kuffars against the Muslims. Any of these acts nullifies the Islam.

What would be a greater transgression than banning the tafseer and study of certain Surahs of the Quran.

[Submission_To_Peace]

Re: A GREAT Loss (Are you involved)

@Mirch

We have the duty to point out what is good or bad about their ideology , their view points and what is good or bad about whatever they represent.

Exactly brother Mirch, the emphasis should be on the bolded part, i.e. their "ideology" but the emphasis should not be on "who" is doing so. I agree that a lot of people who are promoting evil actions are touching the lives of millions of people, but if we look at the style of preaching of the prophet (saw), the suhabas (r.a) and the saints, they never use to make a popular person a subject for preaching the difference between good and bad. The prophet (saw) used to avoid mentioning particular names in his discussion unless it was very necessary to specifically warn people to avoid the company of any specific person, but that too was done in limited words (to the point). A lot of times when we mention names in discussion we open a door for some people to pass judgement on "those celebrities" due to which people easily deviate from the main topic and a lot of back biting / false appreciation becomes difficult to avoid.

The difference between good and bad should be done through the words of wisdom. When good words of Quran and sunnah comes in the heart, evil automatically perishes away as mentioned in the Quran " Haq agaya aur batil mit gaya, beshaq batil mitney ke liye hai "