[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by queer: *
here's an outstanding ambassador to islam displaying the kind of tolerance he'd expect muslims to be handed out by non muslims.
ever heard of shame?
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ever heard of satire?
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*Originally posted by Muslim_Queen: *
matsui cousins do not bring retards into the world.That can happen whether a Chinese marries and Indian or a pakistani marries a gora.Now thats a very pathetic remark coming from you. If you agree that they should be allowed to drink cow urine- fine.You really dont have to say that cousins bring retards into the world.Its like that story about (unfrotunately) India again.The boy marries a dog and what not.You're going to say that its alright, because theres no harm coming from it? I mean come on, we're humans.Drinking cow urine is so wrong .
rvikz-- Im not here for your entertainment.And you wouldnt have a clue of my understanding of Indians.
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MQ, actually you are wrong. When cousins marry, there is a higher chance of birth defects than not. Boy marries dog is neither sanctioned bya religion nor sactioned bya gov't. But marrying cousins is quite common in some cultres and religions.
Heallty people??? you don;t mean in Pakistan right, Ravage. What is the avg life span compared to these silly indians?
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by skhan: *
ever heard of satire?
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i doubt you'd enjoy "satire" if it involved your beloved prophet.
have a good read MQ
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/05/01/i...ast/01GENE.html
Saudi Arabia Awakes to the Perils of Inbreeding
By SARAH KERSHAW
IYADH, Saudi Arabia, April 24 — When she was 17, marrying age for a Saudi girl, Salha al-Hefthi was presented with a husband.
She was lucky, her parents told her when they planned the wedding, that she was to marry such a good man, a man from her own tribe, a man who would care for their children and make a good living. He was the son of her father’s brother — her first cousin — and everyone, including the bride, agreed that “a first cousin was a first choice,” she said.
The couple had two healthy boys, now 22 and 20, but their third child, a girl, was born with spinal muscular atrophy, a crippling and usually fatal disease that was carried in the genes of both parents. Their fourth, sixth and seventh children were also born with the disorder.
Spinal muscular atrophy and the gene that causes it, along with several other serious genetic disorders, are common in Saudi Arabia, where women have an average of six children and where in some regions more than half of the marriages are between close relatives.
Across the Arab world today an average of 45 percent of married couples are related, according to Dr. Nadia Sakati, a pediatrician and senior consultant for the genetics research center at King Faisal Specialist Hospital in Riyadh.
In some parts of Saudi Arabia, particularly in the south, where Mrs. Hefthi was raised, the rate of marriage among blood relatives ranges from 55 to 70 percent, among the highest rates in the world, according to the Saudi government.
Widespread inbreeding in Saudi Arabia has produced several genetic disorders, Saudi public health officials said, including the blood diseases of thalassemia, a potentially fatal hemoglobin deficiency, and sickle cell anemia. Spinal muscular atrophy and diabetes are also common, especially in the regions with the longest traditions of marriage between relatives. Dr. Sakati said she had also found links between inbreeding and deafness and muteness.
Saudi health authorities, well aware of the enormous social and economic costs of marriage between family members, have quietly debated what to do for decades, since before Mrs. Hefthi was married 23 years ago. Now, for the first time, the government, after starting a nationwide educational campaign to inform related couples who intend to marry of the risk of genetic disease, is planning to require mandatory blood tests before marriage and premarital counseling.
Mrs. Hefthi, for one, wishes she had been given the opportunity to test for genetic risks.
“If I knew, I would have said no to that marriage,” Mrs. Hefthi, an elementary school teacher, said the other night, sitting in her living room with three of her sons.
“Why? It’s very painful. Why? If you know something is wrong, would you do it?”
Mrs. Hefthi did not know it when her daughter was born, but Ashjan, now 18, would never walk. Her childhood would be filled with terrible colds, sore throats, assorted other illnesses and an obsessive longing to walk and run like her older brothers.
“Why can’t I walk,” she would shout to her mother when she was 6.
“It is God’s will,” her mother would say. “In paradise you will walk.”
“In paradise will I have a magic carpet?” she would ask constantly. “In paradise will I have a horse with wings?”
Ashjan would never be able to comb her hair or dress or clean herself. Her body would grow only in tiny spurts, her spine curving into the shape of a half-moon. Once she reached adolescence, she would shrivel year by year, and she would most likely die by the time she turned 20.
Health officials and genetic researchers here say there is no way to stop inbreeding in this deeply conservative Muslim society, where marrying within the family is a tradition that goes back hundreds of years.
Today, when most unions are still arranged by parents, marrying into wealth and influence often means marrying a relative. Social lives are so restricted that it is virtually impossible for men and women to meet one another outside the umbrella of an extended family. Courtships without parental supervision are rare
Among more educated Saudis, marrying relatives has become less common and younger generations have begun to pull away from the practice. But for the vast majority, the tradition is still deeply embedded in Saudi culture.
Statistics on the prevalence of genetically based diseases and the extent to which they are a direct result of marriage between close relatives — second cousins or closer — are scarce or unreliable because many Saudi parents raise their disabled children in obscurity, ashamed to seek services.
That has begun to change as more programs intended to educate disabled children open in Saudi Arabia, where there were almost none until a decade ago. Genetic research is emerging here and several projects have recently begun in an effort to document the connection between inbreeding and disease and to quantify the prevalence of the diseases.
“Saudi Arabia is a living genetics laboratory,” said the executive director of the Prince Salman Center for Disability Research, Dr. Stephen R. Schroeder, an American geneticist who has been doing research in Saudi Arabia for the last year. “Here you can look at 10 families to study genetic disorders, where you would need 10,000 families to study disorders in the United States.”
One of the oldest and best known educational programs for disabled children in Saudi Arabia is the Disabled Children’s Association in Riyadh, which opened in 1986. There, 200 children from infancy to age 12 suffering from a variety of diseases and disorders attend day care programs and classes. At the school, the director, Sahar F. al-Hashani, pointed out at least one or two students in each of six classrooms whose parents were related.
Not all marriages between close relatives produce children with genetic disorders. In fact, most do not. But testing could identify couples who test positive for serious diseases. Under a fatwa issued by the World Islamic League in 1990, Islam permits abortions up to 120 days after conception if an unborn child tests positive for a serious disorder.
In the case of spinal muscular atrophy, if both parents are carriers of the gene, the couple has a 25 percent chance of having a child with the disease — or one in four children. The percentage regrettably turned out to be much higher for Mrs. Hefthi and her husband, with four out of their seven children afflicted.
Mrs. Hefthi said she would not allow any of her three healthy boys to marry a relative. In a society that places such a premium on having children, she said, many people would choose to find another mate if they learned that they were at risk of having severely disabled children and if their parents supported their decision.
“I suffered,” she said. “People, sometimes when they see me they say how tired I am. They tell me I could put my children in an institution. But I tell them I am a mother.”
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*Originally posted by queer: *
i doubt you'd enjoy "satire" if it involved your beloved prophet.
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People are free to say whatever they want, but they shouldn't whine if someone has a difference of opinion.
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*Originally posted by Matsui: *
MQ, actually you are wrong. When cousins marry, there is a higher chance of birth defects than not. Boy marries dog is neither sanctioned bya religion nor sactioned bya gov't. But marrying cousins is quite common in some cultres and religions.
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Even perfectly healthy people can have babies with birth defects.This has nothing to do with drinking cow urine. I could say sleeping around is wrong because it increases chances of a person coming down with AIDS or something.
I just think that for humans to drink cow urine is just so wrong. You're bringing up silly topics to defend drinking urine. Yes you also admit its gross and disgusting. But does it have anything to do with the religion itself?
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*Originally posted by skhan: *
People are free to say whatever they want, but they shouldn't whine if someone has a difference of opinion.
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so i take it if you will not whine if my opinion went something like skhan is a sunnavabich.
DO you have trouble understanding the concept that marrying yur cousin, incraeses the chances of having kids with webbed feet?
Have a good read Matsui.
“Menarikam is a marriage, among many tribes/castes of Andhra Pradesh and other South Indian states, between a maternal uncle and his niece or between cousins”
This means deformed and retarded kids are being born in India too, but they seem to blend in pretty well so no one notices the difference :bummer:
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Matsui: *
DO you have trouble understanding the concept that marrying yur cousin, incraeses the chances of having kids with webbed feet?
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What in the world does that have anything to do with this thread? You think religion bashing will do any good? For heavens sake.Iv worked with disabled children.I know how hard and painful it is.Its sad yes, and people who suspect that they might have unhealthy babies should get tested.But matsui if two people are healthy and related then what? Its only if one or both of them carries some gene that could cause an unhealthy baby. Im not saying cousins should marry each other.Far be it for me to say something like that.But thats not the issue here. People who have no relation what so ever have disabled children. Why are you picking on cousins who marry?
Yup, it is absolutely disgusting SK. I am glad we agree.
Free speech, pretty cool eh? And I thought Indians were the superpower 
:k:
MQ, you are denying cousin marriages can lead to previously undetected recessive disorders turning up in offsprings, despite there being a whole bunch of medical evidence for it. while on the other hand, you insist cow urine is bad, when medical studies have shown certain benefits, and even western medicines incorporate cow and horse urine products in medicines as common as fertility pills.
whats the dealio?
ps: next time you get a cut and cant reach antiseptic, remember to pee on it, urine is antiseptic.
MQ, the point is that there is no scientific reason you ahve given to suggest that what these people are doing is wrong. Again, if the harmful agents are removed from the urine, then what is the big whup. If tomorrow it turns out to be some elixir, then I will mix it with Scotcha nd have a drink. As far as religion goes, hinduism doesn;t say go drink cow urine. If that is what you are looking for. Vedas have mentioned some medicinal aspecs of it, whether people believe in that or not, is their issue. It doesn;t make them more or less hindu. this is how hinduism difers from the rigidness of abrahamic faiths. If you have a gash and you have no antiseptic, then pee on the wound.
Conversely, we know the affects of marrying cousins. It can be avoided, yet I am not sure if it is sanctioned as ok in islam. If not, then my bad. If so, then it is shortsightedness on part of the religion and not quite a good thing.
Queer I Never said people should marry cousins.What exactly are you saying? I know there is medical evidence that two people who carry defective genes might have disabled children.Im not denying anything.I think this can happen in any two people, they dont have to be just cousins.As far as Im concerned just as many cousins in India marry each other as do those in Pakistan and other places.
next time I get a cut, I'd rather get an infection then do any such thing.Or maybe I'll just get some meds from the hospital.What a great idea.
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*Originally posted by Muslim_Queen: *
next time I get a cut, I'd rather get an infection then do any such thing.Or maybe I'll just get some meds from the hospital.What a great idea.
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See, this is why we are different. In the absence of hospitals, my flexible being suggests peeing ont eh wound to save my limb. Your dogmatic being suggests getting your limb amputated.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Matsui: *
MQ, the point is that there is no scientific reason you ahve given to suggest that what these people are doing is wrong. Again, if the harmful agents are removed from the urine, then what is the big whup. If tomorrow it turns out to be some elixir, then I will mix it with Scotcha nd have a drink. As far as religion goes, hinduism doesn;t say go drink cow urine. If that is what you are looking for. Vedas have mentioned some medicinal aspecs of it, whether people believe in that or not, is their issue. It doesn;t make them more or less hindu. this is how hinduism difers from the rigidness of abrahamic faiths. If you have a gash and you have no antiseptic, then pee on the wound.
Conversely, we know the affects of marrying cousins. It can be avoided, yet I am not sure if it is sanctioned as ok in islam. If not, then my bad. If so, then it is shortsightedness on part of the religion and not quite a good thing.
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Thank you for making that clear.Just as Hinduism doesnt tell Hindus to go out and drink cow urine ; Islam doesnt tell Muslims to go off and marry their cousins. People who suspect that they might be carry defective genes are responsible for their decisions to have children.
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*Originally posted by Muslim_Queen: *
Queer I Never said people should marry cousins.What exactly are you saying? I know there is medical evidence that two people who carry defective genes might have disabled children.Im not denying anything.I think this can happen in any two people, they dont have to be just cousins.As far as Im concerned just as many cousins in India marry each other as do those in Pakistan and other places.
next time I get a cut, I'd rather get an infection then do any such thing.Or maybe I'll just get some meds from the hospital.What a great idea.
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does it strike you that cousins, since they share common parentage, tend to carry exactly the SAME recessive genes, even if they appear healthy, and hence have a MUCH elevated chance than general population to produce offsprings that display the recessive disorder?
and this is not an india vs pak issue. i am showing you why perfectly disgusting things appear okay if you are used to it. and how disgusting sounding things are actually not so if you knew what it involved.
sure if you have meds and hospitals and all, fine. if you live in a village in a 3rd world country, and all you have is a cow, would you just wait for sepsis to seep in?
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*Originally posted by Matsui: *
See, this is why we are different. In the absence of hospitals, my flexible being suggests peeing ont eh wound to save my limb. Your dogmatic being suggests getting your limb amputated.
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But since the chances of that happening are very slim, Im sure I'll never have to go through something like that. I would rather skip a meal if I dont like it.Using urine is another story.