A Fundamental Question

Society Religion & Philosophy
1

I think the following question deserves an answer from those of you that are more knowledgeable in Islam than I am:

Why did the Prophet Mohammad have a need to wage war, killing and looting many humans when he was a prophet of Allah with tremendous powers? For example, he is believed to have been able to slice the moon into two pieces with a single movement and travel to the sky, riding a half man half animal creature in less than the blink of an eye?

If I saw someone do those miracles, I would convert immediately.

[This message has been edited by Logic User (edited October 19, 2001).]

2

*Why did the Prophet Mohammad have a need to wage war, killing and looting many humans *<<<

I don't know what do you mean by that. He didn't wage a war as all the time he was attacked and he defended. If you have something else in your mind then please provide the detail that I might be unaware of.

As far as your question regarding his powers are concerned, I think it just proves that one can be a human and still achieve without using his powers if he has got the will change something.

3

You read: Prophet Muhammad - The Most Influential Man in History

Before asking any baseless questions.

*“na maiN momin vich masiitaaN, na maiN muusaa, na fir’aun!”
*

4

Logic User

Now that you have committed yourself, can you please confirm the following questions before I give you an answer.

How many Wars did Mohammed PBUH wage?

Please name the Wars? and finally

How do you know Wars were waged?

Please don't be shy like in your previous posts, where my questions are totally ignored.

It's just that your comments seem rather stereotypical and biased in every post!

'You tend to jump into a waterless swimming pool head first and eyes closed, wishing to swim!

5

[quote]
Originally posted by Logic User:
**
For example, he is believed to have been able to slice the moon into two pieces with a single movement and travel to the sky, riding a half man half animal creature in less than the blink of an eye?

[This message has been edited by Logic User (edited October 19, 2001).]**
[/quote]

he was not able to do any of these things, as miracles are only granted to prophets by ALLAH, so it was Allah who made those things possible and prophet mohammed never asked for those miracles him self. and buddy if some one is blind to the truth it means that they will find faults with every thing. when they saw the splitting of the moon, they claimed it to be magic or hallucination, and they called prophet SAW a liar nauzubillah after hearing of mirage. so devout kafirs will never get guidance. buddy before qiamat, a huge animal will come and talk to humans to come to islam, imagine an animal takling about islam but guess what, majority will still not believe it. as allah has said that miracles do not make people muslims, they are only performed to make the hearts of the muslims stronger with faith. my two cents worth....

6

Bukhari: Narrated as-Sa’b bin Jaththama: The Prophet passed by me at a place called al-Abwa or Waddan, and was asked whether it was permissible to attack the pagan warriors at night with the probability of exposing their women and children to danger. The Prophet replied, "They are from them." i.e. the women and children are also pagans, hence it is permissible to kill them.

Abu Dawud,Kitab al –Jihad: (2632) Ayas b.Salamah reported on the authority of his father: The Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) appointed Abu Bakr our commander and we fought with some people who were polytheists, and we attacked them at night, killing them. Our war-cry that night was ‘ put to death; put to death’. Salamah said: "I killed that night with my hand polytheists belonging to seven houses."

(2664) Samurah b. Jundub reported the Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) as saying: « Kill the old men who are polytheists, but spare their children."

Sahih Muslim(4292): The Messenger of Allah made a raid upon Banu Mustaliq while they were unaware and their cattle were having a drink at the water.He killed those who fought and imprisoned the others.

Sahih Muslim: (4294) If they (the enemy) refuse to accept Islam, demand from the Jizya; If they agree to pay, accept it from them and hold off your hands. If they refuse to pay the tax, seek Allah’s help and fight them.

Ibn Khaldun: In the Muslim community, the holy war is a religious duty, because of the universalism of the Muslim mission and the obligation to convert everybody either by persuasion or by force.

7

Logic User,
I don't wanna discuss on this above. As I already gave you a link to a short "biography" of our Prophet(pbuh) and you have skipped it.
Anyway a simply question to you, which religion do you belong to? And I will never agree, that your profile says the truth.

“na maiN* momin vich masiitaa*N, na maiN* muusaa, na fir'aun!”
*

[This message has been edited by Ali_R (edited October 20, 2001).]

8

[quote]
Bukhari: Narrated as-Sa’b bin Jaththama: The Prophet passed by me at a place called al-Abwa or Waddan, and was asked whether it was permissible to attack the pagan warriors at night with the probability of exposing their women and children to danger. The Prophet replied, "They are from them." *

Ibrahim says; Shaitan and his followers will NEVER desist in trying to defame Islam by dissemination of misinformation.

** So let us read what that hadith actually conveys and note how “logic user” had altered it or invented it. **

Sahih Al-Bukhari Hadith Hadith 4.256 Narrated by As Sab bin Jaththama

The Prophet passed by me at a place called Al-Abwa or Waddan, and was asked whether it was permissible to attack the pagan warriors at night with the probability of exposing their women and children to danger. The Prophet replied, "They (i.e. women and children) are from them (i.e. pagans)." I also heard the Prophet saying, "The institution of Hima is invalid except for Allah and His Apostle."

Ibrahim says: Notice how this shaitan had added the following (** hence it is permissible to kill them. ** ) which is not found in that hadith

Such are the ways of the deceivers so Muslim’s BEWARE AND ALWAYS VERIFY WHAT IS BEING POSTED or CONVEYED BY DEVIANTS AND PAGANS & Judeo Christians

[quote]
Abu Dawud,Kitab al –Jihad: (2632) Ayas b.Salamah reported on the authority of his father: The Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) appointed Abu Bakr our commander and we fought with some people who were polytheists, and we attacked them at night, killing them. Our war-cry that night was ‘ put to death; put to death’. Salamah said: "I killed that night with my hand polytheists belonging to seven houses."
[/quote]

Ibrahim says: ** No such hadith exists in Sahih Muslim Ref no 2632 is Kitab Al Sawm and not kitab al jihad, hence this is a malicious fabrication with no foundation **

quote Samurah b. Jundub reported the Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) as saying: « Kill the old men who are polytheists, but spare their children."

[/quote]

Ibrahim says: ** Again this is a fabrication and ref 2664 is part of Kitab al Hajj **

[quote]
Sahih Muslim(4292): The Messenger of Allah made a raid upon Banu Mustaliq while they were unaware and their cattle were having a drink at the water. He killed those who fought and imprisoned the others.
[/quote]

Ibrahim says; Notice what is being snipped off and what is being stressed by shaitan. This hadith was just an inquiry but the hadith 4294 below and the foot note of 4292 explains why this was done on account of necessity and not the normal course of action once war has been declared.

Sahih Muslim Hadith Hadith 4292 Narrated by Ibn Aun

I wrote to Nafi *inquiring from him whether it was necessary * to extend (to the disbelievers) an invitation to accept (Islam) before engaging them in fight . ** He wrote (in reply) to me that it was necessary in the early days of Islam. ** The messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) made a raid upon Banu Mustaliq while they were unaware and their cattle were having a drink at the water. ** He killed those who fought and imprisoned others ** (read foot note 2220) On that very day , he captured Juwairiya Binti al-Harith. Nafi said this tradition was related to him by Abdullah b. Umar who (himself) was among the raiding party.

Foot note 2220….According to Imam Nawawi. This hadith shows that those ** unbelievers who have received the message of Islam can be attacked unaware if the need so arises. ** The correct view is that those that have not received the message if Islam ,** it is essential to give them divine Message before giving them ultimatum of war. ** But those who have received this message , it is desirable to inform them before entering into battle. ** Exceptions can , however be made in this case when there is dire necessity ** (Vol. 11 p-81)

[quote]
Sahih Muslim: (4294) If they (the enemy) refuse to accept Islam, demand from the Jizya; If they agree to pay, accept it from them and hold off your hands. If they refuse to pay the tax, seek Allah’s help and fight them.
[/quote]

Ibrahim says; Notice how this hadith is being edited! Omitting the pre conditions .

Sahih Muslim Hadith Hadith 4294 Narrated by Burayd

When the Messenger of Allah (peace be upon him) appointed anyone as leader of an army or detachment he would especially exhort him to fear Allah and to be good to the Muslims who were with him. ** He would say: Fight in the name of Allah and in the cause of Allah. Fight against those who do not believe in Allah. Wage a holy war: do not embezzle the spoils, do not break your pledge, do not mutilate (the dead) bodies and do not kill the children. ** When you meet enemies who are polytheists, invite them to three courses of action. ** If they respond to any one of these, you also accept it and restrain yourself from doing them any harm.** Invite them to (accept) Islam; if they respond to you, accept it from them and desist from fighting against them. Then invite them to migrate from their lands to the land of Muhajirs and inform them that, if they do so, they shall have all the privileges and obligations of the Muhajirs. If they refuse to migrate, tell them that they will have the status of Bedouin Muslims and will be subjected to the Commands of Allah like other Muslims, but they will not receive any share from the spoils of war or Fay' except when they actually fight with the Muslims (against the nonbelievers). If they refuse to accept Islam, demand from them the Jizyah. If they agree to pay, accept it from them and hold your hand. If they refuse to pay the tax, seek Allah's help and fight them. When you lay siege to a fort and the besieged appeal to you for protection in the name of Allah and His Prophet, do not accord to them the guarantee of Allah and His Prophet, but accord to them your own guarantee and the guarantee of your companions. It is a lesser sin that the security given by you or your companions be disregarded than that the security granted in the name of Allah and His Prophet be violated. When you besiege a fort and the besieged want you to let them out in accordance with Allah's Command, do not let them come out in accordance with His Command, but do so at your (own) command, for you do not know whether or not you will be able to carry out Allah's behest with regard to them.

[quote]
Ibn Khaldun: In the Muslim community, the holy war is a religious duty, because of the universalism of the Muslim mission and the obligation to convert everybody either by persuasion or by force.

[/quote]

Ibrahim says; ** hey logic where is the reference number for this , did you invent it yourself or is this a splice job from elsewhere ?? **

** Grow up inwardly; do not just grow old and die ***

9

Ibrahim,

Your mentality is about at the same level as your ability to write simple English sentences. The way you describe me as "shaitan" speaks volumes about your educational background and the difficulty in general the civilized world faces in modifying Islam and its totalitarian and violent teachings. It may take an entire generation to re-educate people like you, much as it had to be done with the communist totalitarians and the fascists. I hope it won't take a big war to do so.

You jump to calling me a satan, ready to wage a "jihad" against me, whereas my education teaches me to respect your beliefs as long as they don't directly harm anyone else. If your religion in truly peace loving then you should be able to stay on the issues and stop attacking me in person.

If you follow the Mecca surahs of the Quran, before Prophet Mohammad gained strength, you should be able to be somewhat tolerant and maybe we can learn from each other.

I believe that Prophet Mohammad's teachings were very much in-line with the Arabic culture, Arabic beliefs and the Arabic society of the 7th century. He believed in and preached expansion of Islam at virtually all cost. To get the real truth about the prophet, you have to read non-religious text along with the usual Islamic, Christian, Jewish and Hindu writers. Obviously, a religious writer is looking from his perspective which is very possibly tainted by his or her religious background. Most Muslims like you learn about the prophet, the Quran and the Islamic history, primarily from Muslim text. If I quote you non-muslim writers, you will just ignore everything. Obviosly the hadiths are also subject to various versions and translations.

So let me use the words of Prophet Mohammad himself. Here is the text of the message the Prophet Mohammad sent to the Julanda brothers through the intermediary of his Messengers, 'Amr bin al-'As al-Sahmi and Abu Zaid al-Ansari: "Peace be upon the one who follows the right path. I call you to Islam. Accept my call, and you shall be unharmed. I am God's Messenger to mankind, and the word shall be carried out upon the miscreants. If, therefore, you recognize Islam, I shall bestow power upon you. But if you refuse to accept Islam, your power shall vanish, my horses shall camp on the expanse of your territory and my prophecy shall prevail in your kingdom."

A quote from the Kitab al-Tabaqat al-Kabir" written by Ibn Sa'd, Vol 2, page 168:

"The apostle of Allah entered through Adhakhir, [into Mecca], and prohibited fighting. He ordered six men and four women to be killed, they were (1) Ikrimah Ibn Abi Jahl, (2) Habbar Ibn al-Aswad, (3) Abd Allah Ibn Sa'd Ibn Abi Sarh, (4) Miqyas Ibn Sababah al-Laythi, (5) al-Huwayrith Ibn Nuqaydh, (6) Abd Abbah Ibn Hilal Ibn Khatal al-Adrami, (7) Hind Bint Utbah, (8) Sarah, the mawlat (enfranchised girl) of Amr Ibn Hashim, (9) Fartana and (10) Qaribah

A quote from Sirat Rasul Allah originally written by Ibn Ishaq:

"The apostle had instructed his commanders when they entered Mecca only to fight those who resisted them, except a small number who were to be killed even if they were found beneath the curtains of the Kaba. Among them was Abdullah Sa'd, brother of the B. Amir Luayy. The reason he ordered him to be killed was that he had been a Muslim and used to write down revelation; then he apostatized and returned to Quraysh [Mecca] and fled to Uthman Affan whose foster brother he was. The latter hid him until he brought him to the apostle after the situation in Mecca was tranquil, and asked that he might be granted immunity. They allege that the apostle remained silent for a long time till finally he [Muhammad] said yes [granting Abdullah immunity from the execution order].
When Uthman had left he [Muhammad] said to his companions who were sitting around him, "I kept silent so that one of you might get up and strike off his head" One of the Ansar said, "Then why didn't you give me a sign, O apostle of God?" He answered that a prophet does not kill by pointing."

Bukhari's Hadith about Khatal, volume 5 #582.

"Narrated Anas bin Malik: "On the day of the Conquest, the prophet entered Mecca, wearing a helmet on his head. When he took it off, a man came and said, "Ibn Khatal is clinging to the curtain of the Kaba." The prophet said "Kill him."

Bukhari, Volume 9, Book 84, Number 57:

Narrated 'Ikrima: Some Zanadiqa (atheists) were brought to 'Ali and he burnt them. The news of this event, reached Ibn 'Abbas who said, "If I had been in his place, I would not have burnt them, as Allah's Apostle forbade it, saying, 'Do not punish anybody with Allah's punishment (fire).' I would have killed them according to the statement of Allah's Apostle, 'Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him.'"

BUKHARI, VOLUME 5, #369

Narrated Jabir Abdullah: Allah's messenger said "Who is willing to kill Kab bin al-Ashraf who has hurt Allah and His apostle?" Thereupon Maslama got up saying, "O Allah's messenger! Would you like that I kill him?" The prophet said, "Yes". Maslama said, "Then allow me to say a (false) thing (i.e. to deceive Kab). The prophet said, "You may say it."

After the Muslim victory in the Battle of Badr, when the Muslims are on their way back to Medina, the following is reported in Ibn Hisham's "Sirat Rasul Allah", page 308-312:

Then the apostle went forward until when he came out of the pass of al-Safra' he halted on the sandhill between the pass and al-Naziya called Sayar at a tree there and divided the booty which God had granted to the Muslims equally. ...

When the apostle was in al-Safra', al-Nadr was killed by Ali, as a learned Meccan told me. When he was inIrqu'l-Zabya Uqba was killed. He had been captured byAbdullah b. Salima, one of the B. al-`Ajlan.

When the apostle ordered him to be killed Uqba said, 'But who will look after my children?' 'Hell', he said, andAsim b. Thabit b. Abu'l-Aqlah al-Ansari killed him according to what Abu Ubayda b. Muhammad b.Ammar b. Yasir told me. [page 308]

The apostle arrived in Medina a day before the prisoners. ... [page 309]

Musab b.Umayr ... said: "Bind him fast, for his mother is a wealthy woman; perhaps she will redeem him for you." ... [page 309]

Then the Quraysh sent to redeem their prisoners ... [page 312]

I hope this is something for you to chew on. I will collect more examples as I get more time. My question remains the same. Why was it necessary for a true prophet of God to be invloved in bloodshed and plunder, regardless of the justifications?

I respect your beliefs and I wish you peace and prosperity.

[This message has been edited by Logic User (edited October 21, 2001).]

10

Ibrahim says; Hey Logic, are you drunk? or is there a problem in your ability to understand simple English?

I have to ask you this question, since you keep writing about things you don’t understand whereas my questions to you were very simple ( which had been ignored) , let me repeat them for you, since you just vomit in this forum unnecessarily .

Now when I say * Shaitan and his followers will NEVER desist in trying to defame Islam by dissemination of misinformation. *

I mean exactly what I say , now I don’t believe you authored the earlier post because, you may have just cut and paste from some other sources for it is obvious you have very little knowledge about Islam.

It does not take a rocket scientist to know that! since you have been unable to answer questions that were addressed to you by Bro. Sholay. instead you start talking nonsense.

When I say, ** So let us read what that hadith actually conveys and note how “logic user” had altered it or invented it. **

Note in the second part of it I have used your name , but notice I did not use the word shaitan, ( meaning I know what shaitan and their followers do, but I am not sure If you had anything to do with it, although I am suggesting that you may have altered it or invented it, ** it was up to you to prove your innocence by answering my questions. **

IF you failed to answer my questions or clarify the fact that you had nothing to do with the alterations than I have to conclude that you are indeed a follower of Shaitan, without any reservations, ** since you have altered and invented sacred teachings of Islam with an intent to deceive Muslims. **

Now the choice is yours………………

** You can either prove that you had nothing to do with altering and fabricating hadiths ( by producing the URL or publication where you got those contents) or you can try and divert the issue as you have been attempting to do in your reply

The choice is yours **

My questions to you with regards to the earlier post are ………….

  1. Ibrahim says: Notice how this shaitan had added the following (** hence it is permissible to kill them. ** ) which is not found in that hadith
  • Meaning who did this, you or someone else …comprende? *
  1. Ibrahim says: ** No such hadith exists in Sahih Muslim Ref no 2632 is Kitab Al Sawm and not kitab al jihad, hence this is a malicious fabrication with no foundation **
  • meaning who wrote this? …comprende? *
  1. Ibrahim says: ** Again this is a fabrication and ref 2664 is part of Kitab al Hajj **
  • meaning who wrote this? …comprende? *
  1. Ibrahim says; Notice what is being snipped off and what is being stressed by shaitan. This hadith was just an inquiry but the hadith 4294 below and the foot note of 4292 explains why this was done on account of necessity and not the normal course of action once war has been declared.
  • meaning who did the splice job on this? …comprende? *
  1. Ibrahim says; Notice how this hadith is being edited! Omitting the pre conditions .
  • meaning who did the splice job on this? …comprende? *
  1. Ibrahim says; ** hey logic where is the reference number for this , did you invent it yourself or is this a splice job from elsewhere ?? **
  • meaning, I want the references for this, such that I can verify its authenticity.. ….comprende? *

NOW, YOU HAVE A CHOICE….( pisss..not shouting at you, just trying to make sure you took note)

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif

  1. YOU CAN EITHER PROVE THAT I AM WRONG and You have actually quoted the hadiths accurately and had NO malicious Intent whatsoever and it is me who is in error

  2. ** Or ** YOU CAN POST EVIDENCE OR URL TO SHOW THAT YOU HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH IT

  3. ** Or ** you can try and twist and turn, like your reply with more nonsense about matters that you have little knowledge about., so that you can avoid providing the answers .

** The choice is yours, because, based on your reply to my above questions I will be able to conclude whether you are indeed a shaitan follower who had maliciously distorted and invented sacred teachings or just another pathetic blind person making a fool of himself/herself. On this forum : ) comprende?

** Never promise something to a child and not give it to her, because in that way she learns to lie **

so “ Logic User” , remember you can prove your innocence or end up a liar…what will it be?

11

My above post is sufficient to prove my point that Prophet Mohammad was involved in bloody undertakings in the process of spreading Islam. If you are still not convinced, I will, yes, cut and past a hundred other writings from Islamic sources to prove this to you.

12

[quote]
Originally posted by Logic User:
My above post is sufficient to prove my point that Prophet Mohammad was involved in bloody undertakings in the process of spreading Islam. If you are still not convinced, I will, yes, cut and past a hundred other writings from Islamic sources to prove this to you.
[/quote]

He did it for self-defence. Believe it or believe it. You have no choice.

“na maiN* momin vich masiitaa*N, na maiN* muusaa, na fir'aun!”
*

13

Logic User

Please use at least a little Logic if you still want to repair your credibility (whats left of it) that is.

Before you reach Mohammed PBUH, let's deal with the Prophets that came before him who killed according to Scriptures and not A'Hadeeths.

Mohammed PBUH was the last of Prophets.

Exodus 2
11
One day, after Moses had grown up, he went out to where his own people were and watched them at their hard labor. He saw an Egyptian beating a Hebrew, one of his own people.
12
Glancing this way and that and seeing no one, he killed the Egyptian and hid him in the sand.

Exodus 17
9
Moses said to Joshua, "Choose some of our men and go out to fight the Amalekites. Tomorrow I will stand on top of the hill with the staff of God in my hands."
10
So Joshua fought the Amalekites as Moses had ordered, and Moses, Aaron and Hur went to the top of the hill.
13
So Joshua overcame the Amalekite army with the sword.

Exodus 32
27
Then he said to them, "This is what the LORD, the God of Israel, says: `Each man strap a sword to his side. Go back and forth through the camp from one end to the other, each killing his brother and friend and neighbor.'"
28
The Levites did as Moses commanded, and that day about three thousand of the people died.

Numbers 25
4
The LORD said to Moses, "Take all the leaders of these people, kill them and expose them in broad daylight before the LORD, so that the LORD's fierce anger may turn away from Israel."

14
Moses was angry with the officers of the army--the commanders of thousands and commanders of hundreds--who returned from the battle.
15
"Have you allowed all the women to live?" he asked them.
16
"They were the ones who followed Balaam's advice and were the means of turning the Israelites away from the LORD in what happened at Peor, so that a plague struck the LORD's people.
17
Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man,
18
but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

Joshua 10
28
That day Joshua took Makkedah. He put the city and its king to the sword and totally destroyed everyone in it. He left no survivors. And he did to the king of Makkedah as he had done to the king of Jericho.

Joshua 10
30
The LORD also gave that city and its king into Israel's hand. The city and everyone in it Joshua put to the sword. He left no survivors there. And he did to its king as he had done to the king of Jericho.

Judges 1
8
The men of Judah attacked Jerusalem also and took it. They put the city to the sword and set it on fire.

Judges 16
30
Samson said, "Let me die with the Philistines!" Then he pushed with all his might, and down came the temple on the rulers and all the people in it. Thus he killed many more when he died than while he lived.

1 Samuel 18
27
David and his men went out and killed two hundred Philistines. He brought their foreskins and presented the full number to the king so that he might become the king's son-in-law. Then Saul gave him his daughter Michal in marriage.

Matthew 10
34
"Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.
35
For I have come to turn "`a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law--

I can go on and on and on.

However, I will give you ample opportunity to give a valid answer and not your usual responses like 'the cow jumped over the moon'.

'Before you critisize your neighbours garden, ensure yours is in pristine condition'.

14

Hey Logic user!

I am still waiting for you to prove your innocence or be condemned as a liar . Now either redeem you credibility or loss it altogether.

The choice is yours.

Was my request too hard for you to comprehend?

** If your secret intentions are righteous, your outer conduct will be righteous **

15

sholay,

I agree with what you say. Indeed the Biblical and Quranic prophets before prophet Mohammad were also invloved in bloodshed. As I mentioned to you before,

  1. The life of Prophet Mohammad and other prophets was in-line with the ways of their respective times. The 7th century was a violent time to live in, particularly in Arabia. The Holy Quran and its teachings and the sunna are a reflection of those times and that culture.

  2. I would like to question if these prophets truly had these supernatural powers that is written about if they needed to shed blood of humans to convert and convince them.

Ibrahim,

I indicate when and if I add something to a direct quotation. I can assure you that it would not be necessary for me to invent or modify hadits to make the points that I am making to you here. Any modification that you noticed were unintentional and I will make every effort possible in the future to be completely accurate in quoting Islamic text.

16

Ali,

If you read my previous posts, you will see that much of the violence was NOT in self-defense but for the purpose of the promotion of the religion he was preaching and his authority.

17

well there r many reasons u have to go to war....
why do u think america has gone to war against afghsnistan....

the first war fought by the Prophet Muhammad was when the infidels of Mecca waged a war against Muhammad (pbuh) and his followers....
it was an act of self-defense....
most of the wars that followed were as a defensive measure....

after the death of te Prophet, wars were fought outside Arabia to carry the message of Islam, which was not allowed to be taken to people and required military action.....

Even Jesus(pbuh) had great miracles but people denied....
and as Quran states, that those who have a problem with their heart will never see the truth....
so those who saw the Prophet perform miracles (by the will of Allah) denied it and called him a magician and his miracles as illusiosn....


        MUGHAL          ya mujhe afsar-e-shaahana banaaya hota
         _.+._          ya mera taaj gadaayana banaaya hota 
       (^\/^\/^)        
        \@*@*@/         nashaa-e-ishq ka gar zarf diya tha mujh ko
        {_____}         umar ka tang na paimaana banaaya hota
18

[quote]
Ibrahim, I indicate when and if I add something to a direct quotation.

[/quote]

Hey Logic User, you seem to be evading the questions, I simply want to know why you posted those hadiths the way you did…

1) were you the author?

2) Did you copy it from else where?

I hope this time you can give me the answers straight forward , unless off course you have problems answering my questions.

[quote]
I can assure you that it would not be necessary for me to invent or modify hadits to make the points that I am making to you here.
[/quote]

Ibrahim says; Good, so explain to me who fabricated the other hadiths whose references are false, provide the URL or publication name and page references for me to verify them as true or false.

[quote]
Any modification that you noticed were unintentional and I will make every effort possible in the future to be completely accurate in quoting Islamic text.
[/quote]

Ibrahim says; this does not resolve the problem you have created in this thread, you are merely trying to evade the issues I raised , repeatedly.

I repeat

Hey Logic user!

I am still waiting for you to prove your innocence or be condemned as a liar . Now either redeem you credibility or loss it altogether.

The choice is yours.

Was my request too hard for you to comprehend?

** Hope you can provide the answers as requested that is If you want to be considered a honest human being in this forum. **

I have not examined the other stuff you posted as a rebuttal which I intend to do so, after I have your answers , It is a crime to edit , omit or fabricate sacred texts and who so ever does them, have indeed opened the door to hell for themselves , but that is not the reason why I am very particular on this matter. I am basically trying to stop the spread of evil and what you posted has to be considered as evil so either prove your innocence or admit guilt.

The choice is yours………. I am not asking for the moon!

** Never throw mud, you will have dirty hands **

[This message has been edited by Ibrahim (edited October 22, 2001).]

19

[quote]
Originally posted by Logic User:
**Ali,

If you read my previous posts, you will see that much of the violence was NOT in self-defense but for the purpose of the promotion of the religion he was preaching and his authority.**
[/quote]

The best defence is to counter attack.

“na maiN* momin vich masiitaa*N, na maiN* muusaa, na fir'aun!”
*

20

[quote]
Originally posted by Logic User:
**....

If I saw someone do those miracles, I would convert immediately.

[This message has been edited by Logic User (edited October 19, 2001).]**
[/quote]

nay, you'll say he is a majician.

We oughta be Changez like, don't we?