A Dilemma, and my responsibility

Lifestyle Relationships
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Re: A Dilemma, and my responsibility

First off you failed as a brother BIG TIME!
when she asked for a phone you should have stood up against it and simply said NO. I am sure you know a lot of people there was nothing wrong in having a check up on her. Once you found out that she does not wear scarf once she goes out of the house. It was time for you to make her take off in front of your parents and let her be who she is. Force is wrong! Ipod? i dont think its a big deal but i would keep a check on what type of songs are on it. No swearing is allowed!

[Just sharing one story of a sibling]I am sorry i have 4 siblings younger then me and believe me they all had their fair share of this crap. There is a way to handle it. The moment i found out my sister was having some sort of butterfly feelings in ther stomach at the age of freakin 15. I took her in our basement with ami ji confronted her and beat the HELL out of her for good 2 hours....we talked as well........ Today mashallah she is a very good girl has a 3.9 gpa, studies well has a lot of friends and we know all about them. Even guys..I even have people who keep an eye on her she is turning 21 and mashallah is in Deans list, extra activities etc and a very well respect girl among her friend's parents.
Today she is 21 we talk all the time we have very open conversation and i am always part of her life and it takes a lot that i can tell you for sure. I want my sister to find her prince charming on her own. There should be a guy who is literally crazy about her and she is in love with him as well. Why its her life i want to see her happy for next inshallah 60+ years of her life :) she has reached that age now...

My parents have been pretty liberal- lets say after talking them out of their shells. I always had this philosophy there is Nothing wrong in making male friends as long a they are friends. Once you do reach certain age there is nothing wrong having those type of feelings for opposite sex. But one must be able to contorl their hormones. We even know familes of my sister's friends[male] as a matter or fact they even come over to our house for tea every now and then. A child need a parent and a friend at the same time once they seek friendship outside the house thats when things get pretty rough.
My mother comes from a very conservative family she didnt even see my father. My father is pathan so go figure that out *grin we didnt have phone in our house in Jeddah because dad thought it was wrong. Once we came here and as i grew up while understanding the American and Paksitani Culture i knew there has to be balance otherwise my siblings will go on wrong path.

Every house has the same problem that you are having. It all comes down to how you handle it. How good are you at it etc. As being an older sibling you cant just get yourself out of parenting role you have to play part in it as well. I play role of a mentor, friend and a sister in their lives. My parents can be typical parents sometimes i can talk to them and make them understand how things work etc and how their kids view it.

In your sister 's case pani sar se upar guzar gaya hai. If she was my sister! at the age of 17 its tough to control them. I would trick her into going back to Pakistan and give her 2 choices either to go to strict islamic school or get her married to someone there. Or may not give her any choice since she failed at making choices for herself - * -please dont take me wrong here ghat i dont mean to insult you or family in any way i appologize if thats how you felt.

We all wear hijab Alhumdulilah. You cant just play part of a parent in a child life you have to be their friend as well . Force of anything is not good but in your sister's case force is a MUST.

My 12 year old sister begs for phone. She is not getting her phone until she reaches college. She likes to put makeup on and she knows her apa [me] will have a nice talk with her. Sometimes pyar se sometime dant ke sath and very rare thapar. When she is in school i have other people keeping an eye on her. She knows she does batameezi apa will go nuts

My brother i do have problem with her every now and then. he is a guy i do try to handle it as much as i can sometimes i fail sometimes i succeed.

Ghat- be part of her life try taklign to her even though it does seems its a little late. When you see somethign is wrong do something about it dont just pretent its not there.

I am not saying my way is the right way at all but just a thought. It worked! or atleast i think it did. Today my siblings do come to me when that special someone comes in their life. My brother is 18 so figure that out i do know each crush he has and we do discuss it over lunch and dinner. I take them out every now and then and we have our long chats...

Oh My siblings tell me everything if they dont then i find out through people through phone bills through bank statements through friends etc] and i share it with my mother. she is their mother she MUST know even though they think i dont tell ami ji and ami ji always plays a role as if she has no idea and it has been working very well*

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Re: A Dilemma, and my responsibility

^ relationship of an elder sister vs younger brother/sister is completely different then of an elder brother to a younger sister/brother nia, nevertheless good points but the beating should not be apply here, its a brother to sister, wrong. Rather be firm and direct with her.

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Re: A Dilemma, and my responsibility

From your replies, i think a talk is the best way to confront her head on, and i will have to do it since the parents wont. What stops me is that since i am the eldest no one ever had that talk with me, i sort of picked it up and knew what was right vs wrong. So many things i abide by are there just because they are the way for us to life. But i fear that these alone are not strong reasons to convince her. Not like she hasnt heard this from someone already. What do i tell her otherwise? Im leaning towards the friendliness side and dont wish to blackmail her or impose my will.

Nia, the spirit within your ideas is good, but a bit on the harsh side. You beat your sister in the basement? You were fast to jump on me that i failed her. May be i did. But what grantee do you have that your siblings aren't putting a facade in front of your eyes and deep down they really hate you as a nosey intrusive crazy sister beater? Your sis has good grades? a near perfect gpa? Well so does mine. She changed subjects to get into easier ones to lessen the damage on her grades. But maybe you they are really honest with you. I just dont like that mushy feeling of discussing crushes over dinner.

Taqlee had it right though, there are definitely underlying problems in our family which stem from the parents. Mainly the distance at which dad is who can never be approached. An almost absence of communication amongst family... This of course runs into all of us and we are on the quite side but we try to do our parts. But what i never signed up to play the part of a parent and frankly i feel that due to the non responsiveness of my parents their duties and responsibilities are automatically dumped on me. I also trying to grow out of my self to reach a level that one day involves me having a family too. But seeing all these responsibilities I'm also thinking maybe parenting isn't the thing for me.

No we are not taking her to Pk to get her married. The idea was that since it is a all girls college back home she can find less distractions since most of her emails to her friends and journal entries are about boys and who is hot and who is not. She enjoys hooking, and i'm ashamed to say , pimping her friends to guys. Her most enjoyable activity that she is proud of is this match maker ability. In PK it will be a bus pickup service from the college to drop her off at home which means that she cannot be on her own on an excuse of extra class while she is making out in the back of a theater with her friends. Her friends were worried that in PK she wont be able to communicate back, but who says you cannot use the Internet at college? In my opinion i still think PK is not the right thing for her. She needs to change her if there is any hope that she will change.

Also what skhan said is true, we hope that in the company of elder cousins she can find a good role model.

And no, we never forced her to observe hijab. It was purely volunteer thing. My mother herself wears one. She went to a new high school and the first day in hijab as my mother showed her how to wear it. Then it started to slide and finally became a scarf, then something to tie around the neck and finally came off. We dont mind that its totally her choice and she is free to do it or not. But what hurts is that she was parading in the school like a hooker wearing skimpy little cloths. The t-shirt comes off right as she reaches school. Even the pictures she has at her girl friends places involve her wearing odd clothes which she changes into after leaving house. What purpose she has to wear revealing cloths if not to attract attention? No wonder she has not a single muslim or pakistani friend. Only i and mother know about this. Her emails are full of such pictures. Nosey as this sounds but for a person who lies everyday she gives us no choice but to spy on her privacy. And come on, what 17 yr old has 'activities' so private that even her parents cant find out unless she is upto no good.

I am not for force. I think the inspiration for decency and morality has to come from within or be inspired by someone. Still it is an internal function that cannot be imposed or forced upon someone. She prays (though most of the time it seems she is on her days off) but even that seems to be an act of in her split life.

So any advice on where to begin? You dont just pop in with your sister and and start talking stomach ache and etc. She is moving to pk in 2 weeks and knows about this. She has not rebelled against the idea but yeh doesnt like leaving her friends. I also fear that she will make her fake apology to me, stop writing her journals or hide them, change her emails and then there will be no way for us to know what she is upto, while underneath, her life of lies will continue. If it is a friend or a stranger, you can stop there and say Ive done my part, but seeing a family member like this especially a sister, one cannot stop but wonder if you are doing your duty right. Im ready to do mine. I need to play this part and she clearly needs direction and a friend.

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Re: A Dilemma, and my responsibility

nia's advice is harsh but oddly its true!

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Re: A Dilemma, and my responsibility

Beating an under-aged child can result in a visit from Child Protective Services. And the removal of the beating victim from the home. Aside from the fact that it will do nothing more than inspire fear and resentment, beating her senseless isnt the way to go in a western country anyway.

You are a caring and wise brother! You're so right about morality and behavior needing to come from within. Perhaps you can help guide her to understanding that her actions all have consequences. If she wants to dress all slutty, she will be viewed as a slut. If she fools around with a guy and gives up her maidenhood then when she does meet the one she wants to spend the rest of her life with, she will no longer have that greatest gift to give him. Take her thru the what-ifs of the path she's been following....ie., what will she be doing a year from now by following that path? Five years? etc. Tell her that you will always be around to help her, show your support for her but also your disappointment in the path she's on. At age 17, i think especially in the west, the all-consuming goal is to fit in and not consider any consequences, just fit in and be popular. Once she matures enough to understand that it really doesnt matter how popular you are in high school and realizes that her actions arent conductive to a good future for her, I think she may WANT to turn herself around.

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Re: A Dilemma, and my responsibility

tsk, do this its a three step plan.
1)Talk to her.
2) then tell her you understand she needs to have fun and go to these parties. Make friends with her, get her laughing, then tell her you need a night out urelf.
3) Go with her.

Whilst ur at the party, stick urself like glue to the pimple face, letting drop that you are very very overprotective and more than a little neurotic. Stop hints about the guys you've mashed up. Scare the kid a little. He shall soon back off. But dont be direct.

This will only solve this particular crisis. For the rest, you eed to talk to ur sis directly and make her understand that being a hoe gets you a reputation, that this has nothing to do with her, but rather the trouble ur parents went through to raise herin the best way they knew how - and that anything she does is a direct reflection of their parenting. Get her to understand that being ungrateful is the biggest sin ever.

O and Goris are usually more understanding of cultural boundries than pakis, who can usually only think about how to transgress.

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Re: A Dilemma, and my responsibility

For one, I think you have done more than enough Sherlock Holmes stuff on your sister already. I don't think its a bad idea necessarily to keep tabs on what youngsters are up to, but I do believe they should be told about it upfront. As many people will tell you, there needs to be some level of trust between the two of you, if you intend to be her friend/confidant/advisor. Sadly that trust will be much more elusive if she finds out that you are reading her journal/emails/etc. Get over this.

Being a parent myself, I can certainly sympathize with your parents as well as yourself. Each child brings their own personality. Atmosphere at home, quality of friends, education and communication can circumvent most issues but you can't really change the inherent nature of a child. Beating them or forcing them to do something will hardly work. The best gift you can give your children (or in your case your sister) is knowledge and skills to make good judgements and decisions. The rest is really up to them.

I am sorry, I don't think there are any easy solutions in your case. Sending her to an all-girls college in Pakistan is like putting band-aid to cure cancer. She needs to have her attitude altered, else she will get into similar issues whereever she is. Best approach is to give her a good role model. Whether that is in Pakistan or where she is right now is up to you guys. Someone who can convince her that she is better off taking the right road, and help her navigate peer pressure issues. In most cases, for girls, such role models are mothers or a good friend. You should figure out who that can be. It will take time and won't be easy but really thats your best bet.

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Re: A Dilemma, and my responsibility

I don't really like to give advice on personal issues particularly as sensitive as this.

But my observation is similar to that of Nia Khan. I don't think that you have done her any favours. She has constantly betrayed the trust of the family. A problem needs to be nipped quickly in the bud. I don't think she will change now....its too little too late. Maybe sending her to Pakistan will remove the peer pressure that she faces and she may change. Leaving her here...I suspect will result in her continuing on her current journey deeper and further.

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Re: A Dilemma, and my responsibility

The only thing I agreed with. Let her be herself and be honest about it. Remember honesty begets honesty and so the older siblings and parents need to be honest with themselves first.

Woooooo.... that is harsh and illegal and immoral besides. That is awful parenting if the only way you can reach the child/teen is by physical force.

Trick her? You know that is illegal right? A good prosecuter could find a thousand ways to throw you in jail if you do that. It has been done.
Besides which you ever heard about being honest? If you are, only then you can afford to give younger siblings advice. All your snooping does not indicate that.

You make me laugh girl! Hehehehehe.. yeah right they tell you everything and yeah sure you have to snoop through thier phonebills because they tell you everything. They probably tell you only what you want to hear. Perhaps if they actually trusted you they would tell you something.
For all thier hijabs and friends spying on them and stuff they probably lead lives that you have no connection with. I grew up with kids like that.....lololol.. and thier siblings and parents thought they knew everything!

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Re: A Dilemma, and my responsibility

You are putting actions in front me that i don't condone of myself. I too was beaten so i don't think it is a good idea but only adds hatred. I'm comparing all my actions and strategies by placing myself in her position. Asking questions like If i would like someone to do that to me? Yes i could use some advice if i was her, also a friend to confide in would be nice too. But im not expecting overnight changes, and im feeling weak myself to confront of. My own insecurities are surfacing too and im finding myself in an uneasy place.
Issue of Hijab is such that i think it is a beautiful thing if a girl wears one. I would certainly like her to wear one but if she doesnt i cant force her and i wont. But i am drawing the limit when it comes to her having affairs and acting all loose stripped of dignity. Of course, hijabs do nothing if she is not right in her heart.

This weekend, she is off with relatives to another city. I have from today until next Saturday to reach her. One part of me was thinking about writing to her. I dont know how effective an idea that would be, but i think it surely will be something she can physically see, feel and touch instead of an uneasy conversation she will have with me. Its an easy route for me too but perhaps again an ostrich strategy.

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Re: A Dilemma, and my responsibility

Mama and Faisal had some good advice. I dont think its too late to turn her around.

To be able to have someone trust you, you want them to trust you. I would rather not mention the fact that you are going through her emails. Try talking to her as a friend. You cannot on the first day, expect to talk about her problems. You have to make her realise that she can talk to you and trust you and you wont judge her or tell on her to your parents etc. You have to build th trust. This will happen gradually. And maybe when you are more closer to her, and just by spending time with her, you can be her role model. And when she sees and realises that if you can be a good Muslim while growing up in the same situation as she is in, she can do the same as well. It will take some time but i believe it can be done.

Going to Pak maybe a good idea in some ways but trust me, similiar stuff goes on in all-girls colleges as well, perhaps more so than in co-ed schools. I agree it may not be as bad but its still bad. So if you are there for her as a sibling and as a friend, it shouldnt matter whether you live in Japan or South Africa.

THis just makes me even more concious. People seem to have kids so easily but to raise them the way they should be and giving them the skills required to live in this world, requires some real hard grunt work. Your parents may not be able to do it or perhaps they dont know how, but someone has to play their part. And only because you care.

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Re: A Dilemma, and my responsibility

fuv, dont write to her. Talk to her. Treat her like a sister, that she is to you. All your insecurities aside, remind her that you have seen and gone through similiar stuff. Remind her that she has two choice to make. Either to do the slutty performance and then labeled as such for the rest of her life. Give her examples of ppl in your community if you have to. Or she can live through it all but save herself at the same time. There are a million other things kids these age should be thinking about. Hold her hand through it all if you can. Your presence seems like not an option anymore.

I would suggest you dont talk abt this right away. Just gain her trust first and then go from there. But you know your situation better. If you were to come talk abt it right out of the blue, it may feel to her as if a stranger from the train station is talking to her abt her issues. would she be able to trust you insteadof closing down? You know her personality better than any of us so proceed as you feel.

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Re: A Dilemma, and my responsibility

Fuhuvughat, you have a lot of thinking to do for yourself in this coming week.
This is what you can do.

You need to prioritise what you want to achieve and how important each item on that list is to YOU not to her. After all you need to be convinced about the importance of each item on that list before you can tell her anything at all.

She will make a decision about each item only after she has listened to you and has weighed it according to her attitudes and moral judgement. She may listen to you, use some of your advice and discard the rest. She is 17 and has not been raised in a vacuum. She has some ideas about her life already and some direction she wants for her life. She is NOT a child. She is a thinking human being.. a young person.. but one with a brain. Please give her that respect when you speak with her.

The very first and most important problem is dishonesty. However in your sisters case this dishonesty has been forced on her by conflicting values expected of her. Being dishonest is the only way she knows to cope with her dilemmas of fitting in. It could become a habit. Apart from lying being an essentially immoral way to live, it will also prevent her from seeking permanent solutions to any problems in life. She will learn that to cover things up and not solve issues. It is already a bad, bad precedent for all her life if she has to lie about regular everyday things in order to keep some peace with her family.

Your parents brought her over here to live a good life. Essentailly we are all economic migrants and want to be happy in the West. You need to make clear in you head, what exactly this means to you. Is it the happiness of assimilation or is it the happiness of keeping culturally "pure" or is it a judicious mix of the two and how to charecterise this mix. The lines are finely drawn and can shift very easily. Unless you are clear in your head about this, any words from your mouth will seem false and cease to have any meaning.

Think about what is important... reinforcing the cultural values expected by parents who are not forward thinking or reinforcing the values that you have had to deal with everyday of YOUR life in the west, in high school/college/work etc. Also factor in what it means to be a woman both in desi and western situations. You have lived in the west long enough to be aware of what makes lives tick here.

Is hijab or wearing a tight T shirt or talking to a boy on the phone or listening to rock music going to create a untenable situation for your sister? Is it life threatening? Probably not. It could be.. if she intends to be in pakistan forever, but certainly not if she will live here. Think about each thing and also decide what is acceptable if she lives here and what is not. She may or maynot agree with everything, but atleast you will have made your case. Most importantly, get a grip on the nitty gritty and see if these things are really important enough to lose a relationship with your sister over. Because nothing will kill your relationship with your sister faster than unreasonableness and lack of communication.

So she has a boyfriend? Okay, so deal with it by trying to befriend the guy and finidng out more about him.. not by snooping but being upfront with him. Perhaps he is a better guy than you thought. Perhaps he is not. But atleast you will have made the effort to find out and will be able to be convincing in any arguments about him.

Give her the courage to be honest, to talk about her feelings without being threatened by anger from the family. Be a brother and friend.

Hang out with her... dont be a leech but involve yourself in her life. Drive her to the mall, offer to help her shop, treat her friends and her to a meal sometime at a restaurant and find out about them through conversation. She does not have Desi friends.. so what.. whoever said desi kids are paragons of all virtue. Be a little non judgemental and listen and learn. Only then talk to her.

And do not trick her into anything. That spells doom for any relationship she may have with the family. She will not grow and blossom into a thinking and happy individual if she feels she must hide her entire life from her family.

The bottom line is....Having a sister is more important than having a sister who wears hijab or does not talk to boys. The human being and your relationship comes first. So be reasonable. Do not just mouth the culturally accepted desi lines.

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Re: A Dilemma, and my responsibility

^I think the whole dating/sex scene has become to common among muslims these days, rather than accept it, we shud be looking to stop it, as per his story, its obvious that its the western type dating relationship, which i dont think any muslim should be supporting. Its not just cultural, its also religious.

Basically all you said is for him to accept everything shes doing, encourage her, and change hs religious, cultural views.

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Re: A Dilemma, and my responsibility

okay beating up doesnt mean she was left with bruises she is my sister not my enemy :rolleyes: i do not raise hands at my siblings for no reason thats stupid *smack ----but sometimes kids ask for these things.. In her situation it worked out fine

fuhubghat No my sister tells me everything :smiley: i even know the deepest secrets that she wont even share with someone else and like i said i keep an eye on everything.. I like to know whats going on where its going on etc…

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Re: A Dilemma, and my responsibility

I agree sometimes the way i get around things can put me in serious legal situation but Shukar hai they have all grown up so there is no worry :~)…

checking phone bill is not the only thing.. there have been time where i have followed my brother just to make sure where he is …

I am not saying they are perfect kids.. the point here for mr. ghat is to talk to your siblings and you have to put your foot down if you dont even do it right at this very moment you might as well sit back in your room.. close your eyes and have a nice cup of tea…

Mogarkali i am not freakin 30 plus that i wont understand them :smiley: believe me i have done things myself but not this stupid…

Enlighten us mogarkali how you handle your siblings?

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Re: A Dilemma, and my responsibility

I said nothing of the sort. Please read my message a couple of times and think carefully about what I said.

He needs to list his priorities, understand them in context of time, place and culture, factor in a woman's experiences and view them all through the prism of his own experiences of living in the West.. if his sister is to continue living here and flourish as a happy and thinking individual. Only then can he talk to her with conviction.

I never told him what to say... he is an adult and is very bright I am sure. He can make up his own mind, so how can I even presume to tell him what to say. No one can. I told him to listen and learn about her without being judgemental and then speak to her as a brother and friend. He also should think about why he is speaking to her and how his relationship with his sister is important to him and the family.

Comprende?

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Re: A Dilemma, and my responsibility

I do not "handle" them. All they have to do is to be honest with themselves and everyone around them. That leads them to wisdom and leading productive lives of growth. They and I make many mistakes, but if the underlying honesty is there, we learn from our mistakes. We do not cover up mistakes and pretend they never happened. We talk about them, cry about them, joke about them and decide what to do next.

My parents have never put undue cultural pressure on us and have always told us that whatever happens .. good or bad... they will always support us in times of trouble. Unconditional love makes us want to be open with them and each other.

And most importantly we give each other the respect of ackowledging that we all have brains to think for ourselves!

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yea, ur saying the same thing again, let them do whatever they want, but ur using "let them be happy and flourish" to say it.

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Re: A Dilemma, and my responsibility

Whatever!

Dude, I can lead the horse to the water, but I cannot make him drink it. I am not going to explain everything to you again.

If you do not want to think about it.. nothing can be done.

Think what you will.