A clause from Shariat Bill , what a joke ....

Society Religion & Philosophy
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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Paaga| |nsaan: *
Lajawab,

No country has been created without toil & strife, but usually this is the toil and strife of the founders of the country and that of the people to a lesser extent. There is no justification for people trained and educated in Pakistan to go and capture the land of the Afghanis in the name of 'strategic depth', and then commit the most unbelievable cruelties on all the people especially the women and young girls of that country, and then say this 'toil & strife' is for the country! All Afghans truely hate Pakistan and Pakistanis for what we had done to them.

And no, if people elsewhere are terrorist, it is not even half a justification for you to become one. Are you to follow the example of prophet Mohammad, or that of Mr. Sharon?
[/QUOTE]

You need to get your facts straight before you claim something.

Before the Taliban, the women were exchanged as gifts...What more do you need? A whole contingent of women who went to weep at the Taliban cemetery, were shot at by Northern Alliance soldiers under the beneficient eye of American soldiers...

I will see if I can find the link again...

Even now artrocities are being committed in Palestine and Kashmir, yet conscientious people like yourself, fail to voice an opinion about them...

If you fail to see through a jaundiced eye, you will see that Muslims are not a bad bunch...They are the easiest to get along with...

They are constantly molding, shaping themselves to please others, so as not to offend them and make them feel welcome...Guess some guests are just prone to abusing this privilege...:)

It is only when it comes to religion that we must mold ourselves to meet the threat...It's rather tribal, true, but men were created in tribes...Some tribes get out of hand and threaten tribal beliefs and peace and those that are able must stand up to quell this mischief-causing, greedy tribe or at least, let it know that its injustice cannot be let go unchallenged and there will be a price to pay...

Allah knows best...

22

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Code_Red: *
The Talibans where Great Fighters.
[/QUOTE]

they were great fighters compared to unarmed civilians. As far as their courage and greatness we saw that all with the great resistwnce they put forth against US forces. they scurried away like the rats they were.

23

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Paaga| |nsaan: *
All Afghans truely hate Pakistan and Pakistanis for what we had done to them.
[/QUOTE]

Does that include the afghanis who do not want to return to Pakistan or those who are runnign businesses in Pakistan and travelling on pakistan passports? Maybe it even includes the afghanis who brought the drug and gun culture to Pakistan.

but thats a diff topic.

I agree with you that we need to stop this Talibanisation of Pakistan. The so called religious leaders have proven themselves to be power hungry selfish lot on numerous occassions. they can not be trusted

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Re: A clause from Shariat Bill , what a joke ....

[QUOTE]
To abandon the family planning policy because it is considered un-Islamic
[/QUOTE]

What exactly is considered un-islamic? Any method other than just abstinance?

25

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Fraudz: *

they were great fighters compared to unarmed civilians. As far as their courage and greatness we saw that all with the great resistwnce they put forth against US forces. they scurried away like the rats they were.
[/QUOTE]

I was Weakness of leadership of Taliban that made their life miserable.
The leadership was not wise enough to act according to situation. They made no friends or sympethizers even in muslim world. As far as their fighting skills are concerned, they had captured most of Afganistan and brought peace in taliban controled areas

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taleban bludy teror fools. also is all islam peapul who do jihad by saying alla name but go bombing. how you call teror mulla peapul warier? covards this peapul.

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I love the way these people come up with their own interpretation of the koran, based on limited education, ignorance and alot of bias. And then try and enforce it upon the mass population. For their much-needed information, Islam is not an institution, and family planning is not un-islamic. Surely in this day and age people need to be educated about religion and left to make up their own minds about what they do and do not do in reguards to their private life.
The children may not be a burden on the male mullahs, but I am sure that the poor man who can't afford to feed his children, reguardless of the economy, and the women who has to go through god knows what during labour-many risking death, disagree.

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lolz.

Just wondering - is there a link for any of this Shariat legislation?

Islamabad, Out of curiosity, which clauses in the above seem “ok” to yourself? The one about pregnant women not having access to male doctors - (even though there will be a risk of causing further complications with their pregnancies if they can’t find sufficient qualified female doctors)? Whoever drafted these bills, really needs to tighten a few screws in their head. They could have concentrated upon primary education for all children, ensuring access of potable water to all villages, creating a welfare system for the poorest farmers in each village…but nah. To the contrary they chose to focus upon dictating that male tailors shouldn’t stitch women’s clothing and no images of women on billboards. :k: Shabaash. Good to see they are focusing on all the life-saving priorites.

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Why does everyone have to turn black and blue at everything the mullahs do? No one ever speaks out against things like the invasion of Afghanistan because it was a just cause (memorized), invasion of Iraq was right (subliminal), support of Israel is a sacred duty (brainwashed), but whenever these mullahs say anything, everyone explodes…Is it because they don’t have a channel to control what you should think? If you all are so smarter than mullahs, perhaps you should do something about it…

Anyways, don’t you think, behan, that these would open up more seats for women doctors? Women doctor’s would be more in demand? They could visit houses and be more independent?

Maybe some Muslims are comfortable with letting male doctors touch their wives…I don’t know any…

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Before we make any judgments on whethere or not the "no male doctors for female patients" will be problematic or not, does anyone have any figures on the number of male and female doctors in the NWFP?

If there are in fact sufficient female doctors, then there is no problem. If, however, there are insufficient female doctors to ensure that women in the NWFP get the medical help they need to maintain their health, then there is grounds to question the wisdom of the elected officials in the province.

I've always been reserved about making judgements without statistics.

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Ok, I have figures from last year.

http://www.dawn.com/2002/07/14/nat12.htm

About 25% of doctors available in the NWFP are female. So the situation isn’t as bad as it may seem at first glance.

In rural areas, there would probably not be female doctors available, but I’m stereotyping and saying that in rural areas, in nowadays without regulation they probably for cultural reasons would not let a woman be treated by a male doctor.

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Originally posted by Lajawab: *
**these would open up more seats for women doctors? Women doctor's would be more in demand? They could visit houses and be more independent? *

would'nt that mean a phased approach will be needed? you cant disallow women from being treated by male doctors one day and have a whole crop of new female doctors emerge the next day. even if.. and that is a big if, there are more seats for women in med schools, it will take a few years for more female docs to be out there.

as far as visiting houses, we are talking about the same area where women travelling alone is considered a taboo in some cases. How will a female doc visit houses. if all these treatments are by indpendent docs visiting homes, what about standards of care? qualifications of docs..and will they also perform surgeries at houses?

*Maybe some Muslims are comfortable with letting male doctors touch their wives...I don't know any... *

if there is no doctor available, or if there is no specialist available and its a life or death situation would you have an issue with a male doc attending to your mother, wife, sister or daughter? or would you rather that they perish?

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by mAd_ScIeNtIsT: *
About 25% of doctors available in the NWFP are female. So the situation isn't as bad as it may seem at first glance..
[/QUOTE]

Maddie good research, now to put a clearer pic on it you need to provide 4 more bits of data.

1) total population ratio and growth rates by gender
2) urab/rural divide of population by gender
3) benchmarks of physician/population ratio for what is considered adequate coverage.
4) urban-rural divide of physicians by gender.

The ground reality of what is the situation now and what it can become will be apparent after that.

if you need to further develop this model, you may also want to look at total number of female med students in the province, rates of flight of physicians from the province i.e. what %age of med students stay in the province after their graduation and for how long. factoring in specializations in med field by gender is also going to be important.

In my view that is the sor of analaysis and assessment that needs to be done to develop a graduated program and then take appropriate actions to increase female enrollment, encourage and support specialization, encourage and support rural service centers, etc etc. I think the proposed law is ridiculous to begin with but even if it were to be suggested and all, that is the sort of factors one should have looked at.

But I do not expect that sort of analysis, planning and sensible approach from the MMA folks.

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Did anyone read my post about the actual text of the Shariah Bill (it's not an act till it's signed by the governor)? Very little of the text has anything to do with the original points made by the guy who started this thread.

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Fraudz: *

Maddie good research, now to put a clearer pic on it you need to provide 4 more bits of data.

1) total population ratio and growth rates by gender
2) urab/rural divide of population by gender
3) benchmarks of physician/population ratio for what is considered adequate coverage.
4) urban-rural divide of physicians by gender.

The ground reality of what is the situation now and what it can become will be apparent after that.
[/QUOTE]

I came across the ground reality whilst researching that figure.

The ground relaity is that currently, without any laws banning women from being seen by male doctors, in rural areas of the NWFP where female doctors are not available women do not receive medical treatment, because of tribal customs forbidding them from that kind of contact with men.

The ground reality is that rural health schemes for women are focused on training women with medical skills, because today in rural areas women are not permitted to see male doctors. Where trained female medical personnel are not available, women don't get medical treatment.

The law will have little impact here, as it will merely lead to a continuation of the current policy of training female medical staff.

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Lajawab: *
Maybe some Muslims are comfortable with letting male doctors touch their wives...I don't know any...
[/QUOTE]

illness is not a comfort thing.. I know there may be muslims who will let their wives rather die than let them have treatment from a male docter.. as they assume its their property rather than human beings.. though lady doctersis a prefer way to go for women in Paksitan but without providing lady docs to far flung areas it would be true hardship for women..

37

Degas

Its not only far flung areas with limited basic medical care,. its also in major cities when a specialist is needed. My daadi, khala and mom all had to see male specialists because of their expertise. oh and btw all three of teh ladies mentioned do hijab and are fairly religious, but if ther eis an ailment where you need treatment and the available physician is a man they did not say no, They all preferred to have female docs, but had to go with the best option for their treatment.

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Originally posted by mAd_ScIeNtIsT: *
**I came across the ground reality whilst researching that figure.*

good bro, tahts always helpful.

The ground relaity is that currently, without any laws banning women from being seen by male doctors, in rural areas of the NWFP where female doctors are not available women do not receive medical treatment, because of tribal customs forbidding them from that kind of contact with men.

right so now we legitmize those idiotic tribal customs under the title of shariah and let women suffer if they cant find female physicians for their ailment or in their area.

The issue is not limited to rural areas but to urban areas as well, that is why a list of specialists will be very helpful, maybe even teh ailmets that affect men and women and how many specialists focus in those areas.

*The ground reality is that rural health schemes for women are focused on training women with medical skills, because today in rural areas women are not permitted to see male doctors. *

and would you not say that this practise is idiotic? it would have been much better to make it illegal to prevenmt women from seeling treatment or would have made it mandatory for physicians to share clinics on a part time basis in some rural area while maintaining their urban practices, even if it was twice a month.

*The law will have little impact here, as it will merely lead to a continuation of the current policy of training female medical staff. *

so the law is not actually improving the life of women, that much we knew. but is actually going to do harm. Lets assume some guy who is in avillage where women are not permitted to see male docs, and his mother is ill, he takes her to local med staff and they say, we can help u a little btu u need to see a specialist, so the guy takes his mother to the nearest city to see a specialist..now what if the only soecialist who could help her was a man? all of a sudden this sort of bill if pased, will take away the ability of this man to help his mother or for teh physician to provide treatment and care.

Thus, its idiotic.

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Don’t forget the lengthening of the medical college coat for females at KMC :rolleyes: Not a Sharia bill, but close enuff.

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Lajawab: *

You need to get your facts straight before you claim something.

[/QUOTE]

Sir,
You need to explain the same to the 3 thousand men who attacked the Pakistani embassy in Kabul :) They somehow do not see any justice on the 'afterbirth of Pakistan' ruling them in the name of Islam for them and strategic depth for us!

And that happened this morning, much after my post. Either they read my post to form their opinion, or this incident proves my views on what the Afghans feel about Pakistan and Taleban.