What makes you say India is an illegal occupier of Kashmir ..... i would take independent sources ..... infact let me go a step further & say show me a " resolution " by OIC which says India has illegally occupied Kashmir
Read my original post again ..... take a deep breath & then read it again ...... then reply ..........
Any resolution naminig "INDIA".... if you dont have ... too bad ... the truth is there for all to see.
Abdel Yuuki,
I am an Indian, and I do understand that the majority of Indian Kashmir population wants independence from India and if I dont think based on religion or country or any kind of biases and think just as a citizen of the world, I fully support kashmiri people’s wishes.
Let’s put aside all the UN resolution stuff; because I do not think it’s about the resolution at all. No country is going to oblige the UN until it is coerced into.
A country cannot run just on ideals; history has shown that to us time and again; ‘survival of the fittest’ is the only rule that applies. If it was not India, then it would have been Pakistan. If India lets Kashmir break away from itself, then other states will follow suit. India is still not a coherent country, it has a long way to go and setting a precedent like this will be detrimental to India’s future.
You might think that India being a democratic country is not respecting democracy in Kashmir, but that’s not the case. This issue is not just about Kashmir but also about India and hence the affected people are all the 1 billion Indians and the majority among them do not want Kashmir to be an independent country. Kashmir becoming an independent country is not good for India or Pakistan or China.
I have found you to be a decent person from your previous posts unlike some of the hate filled pakistanis in this thread and that is why I am responding to your post.
Last year there was close to 3000 and you say only a few hundreds.
Who cares about the Indian army's self-reported figures.
If it is only a few, why are the militants getting upset and threatning people.
Like I said, the Kashmiri independence movement isn't made up of people like Gandhi who encourage joining forces with the colonial army.
Let me also just say how hilarious the entire premise of your argument is, especially considering the fact that right until 1947, the bulk of the British colonial army in India was made up of native Indians. By your argument, I guess that means that most Indians didn't have any problem with British rule.
Janab ...... I WANT TO SEE OIC RESOLUTION NAMING INDIA AS AN OCCUPYING FORCE ...... simple. Since there isn't anything of the kind , even by OIC which says India is an occupying power.
You're so rabidly delusional it's not even funny.
Resolution 5/11-P(IS)
adopted at Dakar, Senegal
March 13-14, 2008:
"The Eleventh Session of the Islamic Summit Conference (Session of the Islamic Ummah in the 21st Century), held in Dakar, Republic of Senegal, from 6 to 7 Rabiul Awal 1429h (13-14 March 2008)
Expressing concern at the alarming increase in the indiscriminate use of force and gross violation of human rights committed against innocent Kashmiris and regretting that India had not allowed the OIC Fact Finding Mission to visit **Indian occupied Jammu and Kashmir **or responded favorably to the offer of the Good Offices Mission made by the OIC.
Noting with regret the Indian attempt to malign the legitimate Kashmiri freedom struggle by denigrating it as terrorism and appreciating the Kashmiris condemn terrorism in all its forms and manifestations including state sponsored terrorism.
Urges the Government of India, in the interest of regional peace and security,to avail itself of the offer of Good Offices made by the OIC and also allow the OIC Fact Finding Mission to visit the Indian occupied Jammu and Kashmir."
As always I eagerly wait to see what utterly moronic excuse you cook up this time...
If India lets Kashmir break away from itself, then other states will follow suit. India is still not a coherent country, it has a long way to go and setting a precedent like this will be detrimental to India's future.
And remaining under Indian occupation has historically been, and will continue to be detrimental to Kashmir's future. We refuse to be held hostage to maintain the territorial integrity of a nation that entered our land as an occupying force, and has consistently denied us our most basic democratic rights for over 60 years.
Well Janab you did mange to pull out a fig leaf to cover yourself up … a resolution it is … tucked away in the pages of resolutions.
Is that alll …a couple of lines. Janab 60 years of fighting and all you get a couple of lines … i dont know what kind of support OIC intends to give Kashmiri people. I have linked the resolution pafe of OIC … see the reference to Israel and Palestine … after all you equate Kashmir to Palestine … but it seems OIC does not
Organization Of The Islamic Conference
If this means to you that the whole world considers India an occupying power then you can contunie thinking like that. But is it not going to change anything, time will show.
He surely has inspired Yasin Malik
I am no more a militant. In fact I left the gun soon after and now I believe in non-violence. I am following Gandhi and he is my inspiration
Kashmir Affairs - Security & Conflict Analysis of Kashmir
What do you have to say to that !!!
If this means to you that the whole world considers India an occupying power then you can contunie thinking like that. But is it not going to change anything, time will show.
I don't need lip service from the OIC to know that India is present in Kashmir as an occupying force. As I recall, you're the one who brought up the whole issue, and has been harping on it for the past several posts...going so far as to delude yourself into believing that the OIC is really talking about Pakistan when it refers to the "foreign occupation" of Kashmir.
He surely has inspired Yasin Malik
Who cares? Personally I think its more hilarious/ironic that MLK Jr. and Mandela idolized the man, considering all the unsavory things he had to say about black people during his African years.
And remaining under Indian occupation has historically been, and will continue to be detrimental to Kashmir's future. We refuse to be held hostage to maintain the territorial integrity of a nation that entered our land as an occupying force, and has consistently denied us our most basic democratic rights for over 60 years.
History is not just 60 years old, it can be hundreds of years old as well when India was invaded by muslims. No muslim was living in Kashmir around that time. let's not be shortsighted when we talk about history.
As I said, if kashmiris can become strong enough to wrest independence from India, they will; otherwise not.
Abdel Yuuki,
You might think that India being a democratic country is not respecting democracy in Kashmir, but that's not the case. This issue is not just about Kashmir but also about India and hence the affected people are all the 1 billion Indians and the majority among them do not want Kashmir to be an independent country. Kashmir becoming an independent country is not good for India or Pakistan or China. .
India not respecting democracy in Kashmir is and has always been the biggest problem, its the continuous rigging of votes by the central government that has given rise to the periodic uproars.
Also I can say with 100% assurance to you that the 'majority' of Indians that you are talking about who do not want an independent Kashmir only don't want it independent as it is something India has that it can prick Pakistan with any time it feels mischievous, and those specific Indians like to go on about Kargil and how they 'beat' Pakistan etc. Whilst the few Indians who do REALLY understand the Kashmiri situation, feel that self-determination is a basic human right, and that the Kashmiris are entitled to it. You only have to go to youtube and search for kargil or kashmir and all you'l see is thousands of comments of Indians and Pakistanis fighting and cursing at eachother...Kashmir and cricket are the two things they can fight/socialise over...lol, its sad but true.
kashmir doesnt have the resources nor the backing it needs to become independent, and its increasingly starting to look like India wants troops to remain in Kashmir so that it doesn't develop and doesnt ever have enough resources it would need to declare independence, rather than looking at it in the point of view of making kashmiris happy with India.
Anywhoooos bottom line: Policies are flawed & India is insecure :o.
I still think having Han Chinese people in Srinagar might be pretty cool lol, so yah hand it all over to china (ladakh probably wont be to happy), but it would leave the rest totally lost & confused for a good decade which might be a good thing? \o/ We'd probably manage fine with the Ughyrs of China, theyr just across the border and theyr muslim too.
Who cares? Personally I think its more hilarious/ironic that MLK Jr. and Mandela idolized the man, considering all the unsavory things he had to say about black people during his African years.
Janab you can delude yourself about what Gandhi stands for ..... it doesn't matter .... he is idiolized by a number of black people .... even Obama is one of them. Frankly your opinion on Gandhi does not matter, he is what he is.
Also I can say with 100% assurance to you that the 'majority' of Indians that you are talking about who do not want an independent Kashmir only don't want it independent as it is something India has that it can prick Pakistan with any time it feels mischievous, and those specific Indians like to go on about Kargil and how they 'beat' Pakistan etc.
Anywhoooos bottom line: Policies are flawed & India is insecure :o.
I still think having Han Chinese people in Srinagar might be pretty cool lol, so yah hand it all over to china (ladakh probably wont be to happy), but it would leave the rest totally lost & confused for a good decade which might be a good thing? \o/ We'd probably manage fine with the Ughyrs of China, theyr just across the border and theyr muslim too.
Well Indian's don't need to prick Pakistan , they are good at pricking themselves. Kargil would be the latest example ..... even the commanders from Pakistan agree it was a foolish move. But then they dont learn. I sincerly hope that the civilian governemtn in Pakistan is given a chance to work, for they are the only hope. Otherwise the military establishment needs a situation with India to survive.
I am sure now some kashmiri's are looking at China, after all they have been left high & dry by Pakistan. These are the people in Kashmir which are responsible for all the trouble in the valley.
You’re absolutely right. His disgustingly racist racist statements speak for themselves, amply demonstrating his utter and complete disdain for native Africans:
For those who aren’t familiar, “kaffir” in this context is a slur used by European settlers to refer to native Africans…
“A general belief seems to prevail in the Colony that the Indians are little better, if at all, than savages or the Natives of Africa. Even the children are taught to believe in that manner, with the result that the Indian is being dragged down to the position of a raw Kaffir”
Collected Works of Mahatma Gandhi, Volume 1, p193
“Ours is one continued struggle against degradation sought to be inflicted upon us by the European, who desire to degrade us to the level of the raw Kaffir, whose occupation is hunting and whose sole ambition is to collect a certain number of cattle to buy a wife with, and then pass his life in indolence and nakedness.”
Collected Works of Mahatma Gandhi, Volume 1, p410
“We believe as much in the purity of race as we think they do, only we believe that they would best serve these interests, which are as dear to us as to them, by advocating the purity of all races, and not one alone. We believe also that the white race of South Africa should be the predominating race.”
Collected Works of Mahatma Gandhi, Volume 3, p255-256
“Why, of all places in Johannesburg, the Indian location should be chosen for dumping down all Kaffirs of the town, passes my comprehension…Of course, under my suggestion, the Town Council must withdraw the Kaffirs from the Location. About this mixing of the Kaffirs with the Indians I must confess I feel most strongly. I think it is very unfair to the Indian population, and it is an undue tax on even the proverbial patience of my countrymen.”
Collected Works of Mahatma Gandhi, Volume 4, p58-59
Don’t believe me? Think it’s all part of some Pakistani-Kashmiri-Chinese conspirancy to malign India? Thankfully, the entire Collected Works of Mahatma Gandhi have been posted online by the GandhiServe Foundation…feel free to check them out:
Collected Works of Mahatma Gandhi
India not respecting democracy in Kashmir is and has always been the biggest problem, its the continuous rigging of votes by the central government that has given rise to the periodic uproars.
Also I can say with 100% assurance to you that the 'majority' of Indians that you are talking about who do not want an independent Kashmir only don't want it independent as it is something India has that it can prick Pakistan with any time it feels mischievous, and those specific Indians like to go on about Kargil and how they 'beat' Pakistan etc. Whilst the few Indians who do REALLY understand the Kashmiri situation, feel that self-determination is a basic human right, and that the Kashmiris are entitled to it. You only have to go to youtube and search for kargil or kashmir and all you'l see is thousands of comments of Indians and Pakistanis fighting and cursing at eachother...Kashmir and cricket are the two things they can fight/socialise over...lol, its sad but true.
kashmir doesnt have the resources nor the backing it needs to become independent, and its increasingly starting to look like India wants troops to remain in Kashmir so that it doesn't develop and doesnt ever have enough resources it would need to declare independence, rather than looking at it in the point of view of making kashmiris happy with India.
Anywhoooos bottom line: Policies are flawed & India is insecure :o.
I still think having Han Chinese people in Srinagar might be pretty cool lol, so yah hand it all over to china (ladakh probably wont be to happy), but it would leave the rest totally lost & confused for a good decade which might be a good thing? \o/ We'd probably manage fine with the Ughyrs of China, theyr just across the border and theyr muslim too.
Tell me which country has respected democracy when it is about a state breaking away from it?? At the most you'll find a handful of cases. You need to think from the India's point of view to understand that.
It's a free world, but only for namesake; there has always been a price for freedom and always will be.
My heart would tell me to give kashmiris their independence, but my mind wont. And a country cannot be governed by heart. Do you agree with this?
Assuming that a pro independence government comes to power in kashmir after the vote rigging has stopped, India will still not give kashmir independence, it's not possible.
About the Indian policies being flawed, I agree with that. About India being insecure, any country would be; pakistan much more. When religion is being used as a criteria to mark states and countries (in a country like India), no stable and peaceful solution is possible; you only have to look at your Pakistani neighbors. I would love India to win over kashmiris' hearts but I don't know if that's possible with the religion playing it's part.
I still get confused sometimes thinking about why pakistan failed or is failing. Is it because it was created on the basis of religion or was it because that particular religion was Islam, **majority **of the followers of which are so blinded by their gurus that they have only disrespect for other religions and have stopped using their god given brains for making decisions.
Re: 9 Indian Soldiers killed,16 hurt around Srinagar
^
Hmmmm...I wonder if you're this keen on rationalizing/justifying the use of brutal suppressive measures against an entire people in order to maintain the territorial integrity of a nation when it comes to the E. Pakistan issue. I know the situations aren't exactly analogous...after all, the Bengalis actually chose to join Pakistan back in 1947 and were never under illegal occupation per se...but I still doubt you're this understanding when it comes to the Pakistani government's attempts to bludgeon the Bengali separatists into submission.
^ Hmmmm...I wonder if you're this keen on rationalizing/justifying the use of brutal suppressive measures against an entire people in order to maintain the territorial integrity of a nation when it comes to the E. Pakistan issue. I know the situations aren't exactly analogous...after all, the Bengalis actually chose to join Pakistan back in 1947 and were never under illegal occupation per se...but I still doubt you're this understanding when it comes to the Pakistani government's attempts to bludgeon the Bengali separatists into submission.
Who talked about E Pakistan??? I did ask you a question though in my previous post.
Anyways, with all due respect, I am discussing this issue with Abdel Yuuki and do not want to enter into a discussion with you; have read enough of your posts.
^ Hmmmm...I wonder if you're this keen on rationalizing/justifying the use of brutal suppressive measures against an entire people in order to maintain the territorial integrity of a nation when it comes to the E. Pakistan issue. I know the situations aren't exactly analogous...after all, the Bengalis actually chose to join Pakistan back in 1947 and were never under illegal occupation per se...but I still doubt you're this understanding when it comes to the Pakistani government's attempts to bludgeon the Bengali separatists into submission.
Janab there is no comaprison between the situation in East Pakistan and Kashmir. There is much more political space in Kashmir then was ever there in East Pakistan.
Even if you compare the violence levels, there is no comparison. The brutal repression used in East Pakistan has no comaprison. The number of police and army personal of Bangla origin killed by own army has no precedent. Not to mention the way the local populance was brutalized.
That is teh irony ...... Bangla people willingly joined Paksitan and look at the way they were treated ....... as second class citizens in their own country. That is my point for people who claim that Kashmir should join Pakistan, why do they think they would not be treated the same way as the Bangla's !!!
Indian loss of lives will make some Pakis happy and Pak loss will instill the same in some Indians.
I hope you do understand that these are works of Gandhi & he stood by what he wrote. Now quoting out of context and without bearing in mind the timeline, anything can be given a negative connotation. I can direct you to website / writing saying the same thing about “holy books”. Does that mean that these "holy books"are racist and barbaric. Hope you do undertsand.
Well let me given a taste of that …
The presidential speech by Allama Iqbal … which is perhaps the genises of Paksitan theory… he writes
I would like to see the Punjab, North-West Frontier Province, Sind and Baluchistan amalgamated into a single State. Self-government within the British Empire, or without the British Empire, the formation of a consolidated North-West Indian Muslim State appears to me to be the final destiny of the Muslims, at least of North-West India.
For India, it means security and peace resulting from an internal balance of power; for Islam, an opportunity to rid itself of the stamp that Arabian Imperialism was forced to give it, to mobilise its law, its education, its culture, and to bring them into closer contact with its own original spirit and with the spirit of modern times.
Of course no mention of Kashmir … but then that is not my point. The way he has described the creation of Paksitan, an enclave for muslims … carved from India. But today if you look at history of Paksitan, they will go around saying they were always separate from Indian and the Arabs were their saviours… However he doesn’t think so …Specifically refering to Arab imperialism, which in current Pakistan history you find no mention of.
Read http://www.columbia.edu/itc/mealac/pritchett/00islamlinks/txt_iqbal_1930.html
Tell me which country has respected democracy when it is about a state breaking away from it?? At the most you'll find a handful of cases. You need to think from the India's point of view to understand that.
It's a free world, but only for namesake; there has always been a price for freedom and always will be.
My heart would tell me to give kashmiris their independence, but my mind wont. And a country cannot be governed by heart. Do you agree with this?
Assuming that a pro independence government comes to power in kashmir after the vote rigging has stopped, India will still not give kashmir independence, it's not possible.
About the Indian policies being flawed, I agree with that. About India being insecure, any country would be; pakistan much more. When religion is being used as a criteria to mark states and countries (in a country like India), no stable and peaceful solution is possible; you only have to look at your Pakistani neighbors. I would love India to win over kashmiris' hearts but I don't know if that's possible with the religion playing it's part.
I still get confused sometimes thinking about why pakistan failed or is failing. Is it because it was created on the basis of religion or was it because that particular religion was Islam, **majority **of the followers of which are so blinded by their gurus that they have only disrespect for other religions and have stopped using their god given brains for making decisions.
lol, no country will want to let what it conceives a 'part' of it go, but time and the ground realities wont allow it to go any other way, just look at Kosovo as the newest example, and surprise surprise, India doesn't recognise it, as doing so will legitimise the Kashmiri freedom struggle. America, EU, UK all have recognised Kosovo.
All I will say is that, Kashmir need not be independent, it can work within India, but India doesnt want it to work, Kashmir people themselves are not a fighting people, they just want to be left alone, and India wont even give them that!
Seems like India is waiting for Kashmiris to pop the lid, that is when you will see Kashmiri militants on the Delhi RTS or parliament building or busy shopping areas. And that is when it will be too late for India to do anything, it will probably reply with a surge in the valley, which will just gain more international recognition for the self determination of the people of Kashmir and independence will be imminent.
Pakistan isn't failing, they're doing fine, they have kept on par with a much larger, wealthier and resourceful India. Up until 1991, India was close to bankruptcy just as Pakistan was, both were in a mess. Pakistan has been falling behind India though 1995 onwards, I think.
All I will say is that, Kashmir need not be independent, it can work within India, but India doesnt want it to work, Kashmir people themselves are not a fighting people, they just want to be left alone, and India wont even give them that!
You seem to be a bit confused in what you are trying to say ..... you say Kashmiri's don't want to be independent ... they just want to be left alone. What does that mean !!!!!
Why would India not want Kashmir to work within India? Can you clarify on this point a bit.