5 Differences between the Mujahideen and the 15 British Sailors

Society Pakistan & World Affairs
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Re: 5 Differences between the Mujahideen and the 15 British Sailors

I think it's even worse than this. The concept of "Mujahideen" has been glamorized and made fashionable. Perhaps the Quranic scholars here can help me, but the Quran has to have sections on the virtue of peace, prosperity, coexistence, and tolerance eh? Why are these concepts so secondary to the concept of Jihad? If you look, there are fights all over the world, the vast majority of which involve Muslims. Is the whole world against you, or are you against the whole world? I suspect the latter.

If you take the Palestinians as an example, they have continued to fight as a matter of principle, to the point where the entire social structure and fabric of their society is jeopardized. Instead of making peace, they have kidnappings, unemployment, and their people being killed by flooding sewage. Who is first on the scene of that particular catastrophe? Not firemen, or civil engineers, but Hamas gunmen. When "Gunman" is the the most frequent job description in your society, things are out of control. Jihad has become a culture of extreme violence and conflict, not a point of divine guidance and scriptural knowledge. It is a cultural addiction, not wisdom.

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Re: 5 Differences between the Mujahideen and the 15 British Sailors

yup, in Rambo 2 or was it 3? also in James Bond's Living Daylights. Dont forget the 'mujahideen' got tons of good press in US when they were fighting the Soviets.

the rest of the glamour has been due to self serving corrupt ppl whether it was yasser arafat, or it is the MMA goons in Pakistan.

moi no scholar, but yep, there are sections

Because those principles do not help groups like L-K-da or Izlameek geehad, or ham-ass etc

If you look, there are fights all over the world, the vast majority of which involve Muslims. Is the whole world against you, or are you against the whole world? I suspect the latter.

yup a cultural addiction supported by people who have their own power and agenda in mind. Only way to get thru is to change the culture and to stop the militants from further brainwashing people.

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Re: 5 Differences between the Mujahideen and the 15 British Sailors

I dont know about good press but USA did ratched up its propoganda machine agaisnt the Soviet Union in the 1980's

The reason that Muslims are at conflict with so many countries is because many muslims are poor and illiterate and thus are easily brain washed by Saudi funded schools which preach hatred towards anyone who is not a Muslim.

agreed

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Re: 5 Differences between the Mujahideen and the 15 British Sailors

People who glamorize their national armies are no better or worse than those who glamorize the duty of the Mujahids...one in the same.

What gets me is the servile attitude of those here who on the one hand will condemn the attitudes of Jihadis, yet fail to point out the utter hypocrisy of those who demand peace from Muslims (with the apparent idea that Muslims should never as a group fight for anything) yet refuse to reciprocate.

The rubric of chastising Muslims excessively out of dire concern for fellow Muslims falls rather short here...

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Re: 5 Differences between the Mujahideen and the 15 British Sailors

^ Comparing national armies and radicalized mercenaries doesn't compute. Curious, do you think Christians should fight as a group? What other religions fight as a group?

You post implies that Muslims are being singled out and attaked for being Muslim. They aren't.

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Re: 5 Differences between the Mujahideen and the 15 British Sailors

come on, how is having students dressed up as ninjas attached to 'lal masjid" with threats of suicide bombings if the goverment does not enforce ban of video shops jihad? the world is becoming absured.

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Re: 5 Differences between the Mujahideen and the 15 British Sailors

.
nicely said

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Re: 5 Differences between the Mujahideen and the 15 British Sailors

Ther issue here is that Muslim armies dont stand up for their own so civilians end up havng to do things...

And plenty of mujahideen are educated doctors and the like...it just makes a lot of you feel better to assume they are illiterate and stupid for what they do...a lot of them are very rational and know exactly what they are doing...

They stand up for their deen cos the armies dont...

Please tell me what Pakistan does for Kashmir or the Afghans and please tell me what help any Arabs provide for the Palestinians and better yet who provides help for the Chechens...nobody so at the end of the day its going to be the civilians who fight cos nations are too busy listening to their western masters to give a damn about their own...

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Re: 5 Differences between the Mujahideen and the 15 British Sailors

So you support Mujahideens who are after the blood of your President Musharraf and your army officers?

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Re: 5 Differences between the Mujahideen and the 15 British Sailors

and you tell us who swallowed the huge amounts sent by Christian countries for the help of poor palestines?

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Re: 5 Differences between the Mujahideen and the 15 British Sailors

Grow up. Was it a coincidance the afhan Jihad sponsered by US/Saudis and run by Pakistan Army/ISI was a sucess? withought their help they would have been ran over.

What about Darfur? why dont you lot stop muslims massacring black muslims. How is killing other muslims in Iraq jihad?

Most are brainwashed plonkers.

Put it this way Gulf countries give more aid than Osama ever did to Palestine.

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Re: 5 Differences between the Mujahideen and the 15 British Sailors

is there anything like a 'muslim' army? or do you mean armies of mulsim majority countries? Since theya re national armies by their charter they are respnsible to defend their country and watch out for its interests.

while there are educated people among them, majority is still illiterate or semi literate.

I dont question that some of them, especially the top leadership is very intelligent and is doing what they consider to be rational. But your average foot soldier is an order following automaton.

They do not stand up for their deen, they also stand up for a piece of land.

Lets see, if Pakistan was not helping kashmir, then there would not be any dispute with India on this topic. the wars related to kashmir would not have been fought, and ill advised approach of Zia of proxy wars by using madrissa brainwashed militants would not have created the mess we see in our cities now.

now what does Pakistan do for afghans, Pakistan threw its weight behind Afghans, while one of the superpowers had taken it over, Pakistan welcomed millions of refugees to Pakistan.

You mean funding? just go do a google search and you will find out how much money arab countries give to Palestinians so they can run their affairs. sadly it appears a lot of that money ends up lining th pockets of the corrupt leadership.

Arabs also fought wars with Israel, and in the process lost part of their land to Israel.

so what have arabs done for Palestinians, I have given you a peek.

If you look at your "mujhaideen" who you claim have such a pain for the ummah in their hearts, when was the last time you saw some mass demonstration by Hamas folks in support of Kashmiris, or Chechens? when was the last time you saw some large show of support by Chechens for Kashmiris? what about darfur? I dont see scores of Hamas or taleban or other folks going into darfur to stop the bloodshed?

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Re: 5 Differences between the Mujahideen and the 15 British Sailors

Fraudz, sad reality is that army used these Mujahideen for their own purposes. They trained them gave them arms, prepared them for "jihad" and sent them to Afghanistan and Kashmir. How can you uproot an ideology that yourself has perpetuated for a decade. Long ago when these people were "officially" mujahideen and fighting in Kashmir, i used to say to my fellow Pakistanies, we cannot change world map by fighting a guerilla war, these people are laying their lives for cause which is not materialising. Now all of a sudden you want this end? isey kehtey haiN
"hor chupoo"

There have been a generation of people in Pakistan with Jihad ideology, there were scores of young men who did not know anything but to fight. When Afghan war ended, there were scores of young men who suddenly realised key sawai lerney key unhaiN koi dhang ka kaam nahiN aata.

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Re: 5 Differences between the Mujahideen and the 15 British Sailors

I agree. it was a bad move. sanctioned by Afghanistan, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia and USA. It apears that it has come to bite all 4 countries in the butt.

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Re: 5 Differences between the Mujahideen and the 15 British Sailors

It certinaly does, especially when the rhetoric employed by nationalists is akin to that of the religious. It may be self edifying to suggest that all those who fight for the sake of religion are radicalized, and rabid. The fact is there is a mix...you get crazy radicals who'll do anything for their cause..but then, the nationalist analog is apparent to anyone who has lived through the cold war and remembers it.

As for Christans fighting as a group...if they did, who am I to fault them? The point is, why can 'The West' fight as a group, but not Christans, Muslims, Hindus, etc?

[quote]

You post implies that Muslims are being singled out and attaked for being Muslim. They aren't.
[/quote]

I think we most certainly are.

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Re: 5 Differences between the Mujahideen and the 15 British Sailors

Shall I support Musharraf (not my Pres. btw), who is going all ape in the North, and allying himself with a party that threatened to 'end
Pakistan?

Anyway, this isn't about taking 'sides', but pointing out their similarities.

With regards to the Afghan war, yes...the Muj did a great job. I know Russians who served in Afghanistan, and even they admit their behavior was only slightly better than savage.

The question I have, is when is enough, enough? When do the self proclaimed enlightened here think that Muslims are more than justified to take up arms?

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Re: 5 Differences between the Mujahideen and the 15 British Sailors

Exactly.

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Re: 5 Differences between the Mujahideen and the 15 British Sailors

1) hari krishnas!!!!
2) whirrling derveshes
3) druids...no one remembers druids..

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Re: 5 Differences between the Mujahideen and the 15 British Sailors

Risc...
When did anyone claim Darfur to be Ilsmaic and since when did fighting alongside the Americans against Communism become Islamic...

Sure you posted in the right thread?...

MrFraudia...

is there anything like a 'muslim' army? or do you mean armies of mulsim majority countries? Since theya re national armies by their charter they are respnsible to defend their country and watch out for its interests.

Exactly...Muslim armies fight to protect their national interests not Muslims hence why Muslims who do fight to protect Muslims end up being civilians...

*while there are educated people among them, majority is still illiterate or semi literate.

I dont question that some of them, especially the top leadership is very intelligent and is doing what they consider to be rational. But your average foot soldier is an order following automaton.*

Isnt this the case for any national army also...The educated ones will be the planners and strategists and those who arent capable of that will be the foot soldiers...since when did being uneducated effect your ability to fight for a cause...you dont need a degree to fight in the way of Islam you need to have belief and courage...

*They do not stand up for their deen, they also stand up for a piece of land. *

Muslim land...

*Lets see, if Pakistan was not helping kashmir, then there would not be any dispute with India on this topic. the wars related to kashmir would not have been fought, and ill advised approach of Zia of proxy wars by using madrissa brainwashed militants would not have created the mess we see in our cities now.

now what does Pakistan do for afghans, Pakistan threw its weight behind Afghans, while one of the superpowers had taken it over, Pakistan welcomed millions of refugees to Pakistan.*

Afghans were acceptable when they were fighting the Soviets...the Afghans and Pakistanis werent fighting for Islam they were fighting for their boss the Americans...once that bond was over with the Afghans are no longer acceptable...Pakistan showed it care for its brothers when they provided airspace for them to be bombed...

The thing with Kashmir is Pakistan does as its told...and what with the plausible deniability in 99...

*You mean funding? just go do a google search and you will find out how much money arab countries give to Palestinians so they can run their affairs. sadly it appears a lot of that money ends up lining th pockets of the corrupt leadership.

Arabs also fought wars with Israel, and in the process lost part of their land to Israel.

so what have arabs done for Palestinians, I have given you a peek. *

Are we talking about Arab leaderships or wealthy Arabs...its funny cos a lot of Israels resources have to travel through the Arab countries...and a lot of resources come from the Muslims next door...its rich Arabs and militant organisations that help the Palestinians no-one else...

If you look at your "mujhaideen" who you claim have such a pain for the ummah in their hearts, when was the last time you saw some mass demonstration by Hamas folks in support of Kashmiris, or Chechens? when was the last time you saw some large show of support by Chechens for Kashmiris? what about darfur? I dont see scores of Hamas or taleban or other folks going into darfur to stop the bloodshed?

Im not going to judge individuals...im not suggesting that for some people they may be fighting for their nation and not Islam and for them there is no martyrdom...but there are infact Muslims of all nations fighting everywhere...There were all sorts in Kosovo...Chechnya and Afghanistan are full of Arabs and so forth...just cos your a Palestinian fighting in Palestinian doesnt make you a nationalist...last time i checked Hamas's charter was to raise the banner of God over each inch of Palestine...Muslim land remember...

And they are fully justified when you have cowards who practice diplomacy with the enemy...*

*

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Re: 5 Differences between the Mujahideen and the 15 British Sailors

Naughty by Nature nay farmaya

** Exactly...Muslim armies fight to protect their national interests not Muslims hence why Muslims who do fight to protect Muslims end up being civilians...**

I see people fighting for land or for political interests? btw do you consider the junjaweed mujahideen too? what about the death squads in baghdad?

Isnt this the case for any national army also...The educated ones will be the planners and strategists and those who arent capable of that will be the foot soldiers...since when did being uneducated effect your ability to fight for a cause...you dont need a degree to fight in the way of Islam you need to have belief and courage...

Yeah but when these jahil foot soldiers are being led by manipulative self serving idiots in teh guise of Islam, then we have a problem because these automatons think whatever they are being told is some religious ruling.

**
Muslim land...**

what is muslim land? what is non mulim land? this is an interesting discussion because using te logic of land belonging to people of different faith you may end up in a situation that a particular part of land actually belongs to druids, zoroastrians, etc.

**
Afghans were acceptable when they were fighting the Soviets...the Afghans and Pakistanis werent fighting for Islam they were fighting for their boss the Americans...once that bond was over with the Afghans are no longer acceptable...**

so the mujahideen were not mujahideen they were not fighting for god but for US and for their own political interests? so tell me why did they do so in the name of islam and hoodwink the automatons to serve as war fodder? that is the problem with these 'mujahideen' being jahil.

Pakistan showed it care for its brothers when they provided airspace for them to be bombed...

Pakistan told those idiot taleban to think logically, and they would not. Pakistan was one of the few countries that were actively advising US not to attack and trying to convince taleban to hand over OBL. But when it became the issue of Pakistan;s interests at stake because of taleban, fine let them deal with what they have to deal with.

Are we talking about Arab leaderships or wealthy Arabs...its funny cos a lot of Israels resources have to travel through the Arab countries...and a lot of resources come from the Muslims next door...its rich Arabs and militant organisations that help the Palestinians no-one else...

as I said, utilize the wealth of information easily accessible and see how much aid the palestinians got and from what countries..I am talking official govt aid and not private donations

Im not going to judge individuals...im not suggesting that for some people they may be fighting for their nation and not Islam and for them there is no martyrdom...

I would suggest that all are fighting for land and political interests, even if they say they are fighting for God. How is a suicide bomber killing innocent civilians in israel fighting for God? how are the chechens who gassed a bunch of innocent ppl fighting for God? they are fighting for their political autonomy and all. Not Islam.

but there are infact Muslims of all nations fighting everywhere...There were all sorts in Kosovo...

although the war really ended after US decided that what was going on was too much and started bombing the serbs...remember that?

Chechnya and Afghanistan are full of Arabs and so forth...

These are the same people mostly whom you earlier described as people fighting for their master USA and not god? right?

just because someone thinks and says that he is fighting for god, does not mean he is now does it?

just cos your a Palestinian fighting in Palestinian doesnt make you a nationalist...last time i checked Hamas's charter was to raise the banner of God over each inch of Palestine...Muslim land remember...

PLO was a nationalist organization, Hamas was supported by none other than Israel to give palestinians another venue and break PLO's stronghold. secondly if hamas was so concerned with Islam and not land, why would thet limit themselves to that part of land.

And they are fully justified when you have cowards who practice diplomacy with the enemy...

diplomacy with opponents reminds me of sulah e huadibya, dont think that was cowardly, but a smart move.

and ...these fighters..they are then justified in killing innocent civilians??