1965 War

mo293 · September 19, 2009, 8:57am

Did any one see Bill Clintons intreview to BBC? Its amazing what India could not achieve with its whole army US could with a stroke of a pen...

niden · September 19, 2009, 3:11pm

Why facts always create pain in the arse? What do you want to say which is different than mine? I am not an Indian. I am starter of this thread and read it from the begining you arse hole.

ehsan · September 19, 2009, 5:22pm

700 intruder, 70,000 Indian soldiers, 4 months to clear the area with heavy casualities. Salute to the brave Indian army.

Reverse_Swing · September 19, 2009, 5:55pm

That is unacceptable language niden :)

niden · September 19, 2009, 8:35pm

Kargil adventure was ill planned most probably by Mush and according to ex-pm NS, he was not aware of this mission. He was lying to Bill Clinton.

Same ratio of Pakistani army in 1965 war, Indain army ko lohay ke chanay chabwa deyay thay.:)

niden · September 19, 2009, 8:53pm

Calling me an Indian is also un-acceptable. When ever some one asked me in NA whether I am an Indian, I always say that I am Pakistani. What ever condition of Pakistan is I am born Pakistani. Since centuries my ancistors were born, died and burried in that part of sub-continent which is now Pakistan.

Not towing some ones biased and prejudice line of thinking does not make you an Indian though there is absolutely nothing wrong being an Indian.:)

Reverse_Swing · September 19, 2009, 9:27pm

I was a bit puzzled and about to repeat your own words...

yeh andaz-e-guftugoo kya hai bhai :)

Don't know the history b/w you two but Mysterious Guy is actually quite a reasonable guy. He is above petty party or regional (not saying it is a good or bad thing but he actually supports ZAB and Musharraf and hates NS) affiliations, that much I know...

niden · September 19, 2009, 9:37pm

^^^

If some one who does not agree with you and say "Your Indian PM" what will be your reaction? I think I have explained in detail. No further comments are needed here.

mYsTeRiOuS_gUy · September 19, 2009, 11:25pm

Wah wah, doosron ko andaz e guftagu pe lecture aur khud itni ghatya language????

I asked that question to an Indian who spends day and night on this forum to spread false propaganda but your answer is by no means something a Pakistani will come up with, all you are trying to do is to score some cheap points just to prove that a certain party leader was at fault????

Rahi baat sach ki tou itnay saaray sach hain k i can shut you up in a minute but there is time and place for everything. You are just being a PPP supporter first and then a Pakistani whereas i don't give a damn about any Sharif, Bhutto or Chaudhary.

mYsTeRiOuS_gUy · September 20, 2009, 3:41am

That's it Reverse Swing.
I think ZAB was a GREAT leader but don't have much respect for his own daughter or son in law.
Musharaff (in my opinion) was also a very sincere leader but lost the plot in the end.
But some people on this forum will support even a crook like Zardari only because he represents a certain party and belongs to a certain province.
They won't hesitate to put their own country down just to prove that the PML leader made a mistake, then they wonder why i chose the word "your Indian PM".

ehsan · September 20, 2009, 6:48am

Re: 1965 War

[admin]Can we please refrain from personal attacks.[/admin]

niden · September 20, 2009, 2:49pm

[quote]
I asked that question to an Indian who spends day and night on this forum to spread false propaganda but your answer is by no means something a Pakistani will come up with, all you are trying to do is to score some cheap points just to prove that a certain party leader was at fault????

Rahi baat sach ki tou itnay saaray sach hain k i can shut you up in a minute but there is time and place for everything. You are just being a PPP supporter first and then a Pakistani whereas i don't give a damn about any Sharif, Bhutto or Chaudhary.
[/quote]

Topic has gone off tangent. The main topic was remembering heroes of 1965 war. You may open another thread I would be happy to discuss the faulty and wrong notions in your mind.

I am not scoring here cheap points nor you have correct and enough knowledge to shut me up. Zardari is a legally elected President of Pakistan. Majority of Pakistanis have given their consent to be president for five years. It is not you or me who has made Zardari as President. When majority of Pakis have given vote in favor of Zardari, I think it is every paki's duty to respect the majority vote and keep personal hatred to oneself. He is legal president for five years whether you like it or not. Calling him crook, you are insulting Pakistanis mandate and it transpires that all Pakis including yourself are crooks.

No one put own country down by quoting the mistakes committed and continuously committing by PML (N) leader NS. This is information age. Every one in the world knows that what is happening even in Kana Kaacha. So hiding stupidity of NS from Indians will not make him superior as they already have better knowledge than yourself. You can not defend your country by up holding the stupidity of NS.

By the way in 1999, I was the only one on this forum who condemned Mush for kicking out NS being legal PM of Pakistan, not because I liked him. I said that it was big blunder committed by Mush to do that. NS as legal PM had full rights under constitution to replace his army chief. NS should have completed his tenure and then replaced through elections. He should not have removed in unceremonious manner which was the norm of Paki generals to insult and degrade the position of elected PM of Pakistan. (and you are talking about insults byIndians here). Later events proved that I was the only person on this forum who was on the right track where as every one was praising Mush for kicking NS due to huge corruption, mismanagement, prejudism against other provinces and nepotism.

For your information if Qazi Hussain Ahmad of JI would have been elected by people of Pakistan, I would have respected that mandate too even though since school days, I hate JI to the core of my heart. If choice is given to me between JI and PML (N), I would vote for PML (N). So don't judge people at your home, you never met and you don't know their back ground.

Sarsaparilla · September 29, 2009, 7:12pm

pak-one:

India's losses have nothing to do with "trusting" either China or Pakistan. India and Pakistan had already fought in 1948 where (if you take the Indian perspective) 1/3 of Kashmir was lost to Pakistan and Aksai Chin to China, so it's not like the Indian leadership was completely unaware of the regional hostilities.

Indira was definitely the Iron Lady of India. The losses in 1971 were incredibly decisive for Pakistan, but let us not forget that the local population (E. Pakistanis) was openly hostile to Pakistani military due to the political repression and military violence before India had gotten involved. But a loss is a loss.

I am not sure how much worse of a loss it would have been in 99 with Kargil. Unlike the previous wars, Pakistan, newly a declared nuclear power would always have that option and with the impending loss of the major population centers, would exercise it. Pakistani military and command structure is surprisingly apocalyptic in that respect.

I don't think Pakistan represents that threat to India, as eyes have turned to China. I don't think China would attack India at any juncture, but Indian anxieties clearly reaching a fevered pitch vis-a-vis the rise of China's military power. If you make an honest assesment of India's capabilities versus China (an equal regional power) the situation turns bleaker for the Indian side.

Like I have been saying in the past, wars with India are not to Pakistan's benefit economically. Even the '65 wrecked our economy for DECADES. I don't think an open firendship with India is possible either, so the idea of "good fences make good neighbors" is probably the way to go.

Personally I don't mind working with Indians or even Israelis where the collaboration yields the best outcomes. In the global context economic interests should be separated from political ones.

Biggest losses Pakistan has suffered due to conflicts with India are not military but economic. Pakistan which is a beautiful country with a long common history with India has a stupendous potential for tourists rupees from India. I have a travel agent friend in Mumbai who says he alone can send 1 crore rupees of tourists to Pakistan if Pakistan was not so hostile to India. Even muslims in India will not travel to Pakistan. At some point Pakistan has to assess if this continuous hostility to India is affordable to it economy. India can well afford the military budget that it wastes on Pakistan. Pakistan can ill-afford to waste that money. The keyboard jihadis that spout anti-India venom don't pay their own bills, their parents do.

Reason · September 29, 2009, 7:44pm

It cannot. The root is a Pakistani delusion regarding Kashmir. Pakistan will never be able to take over Kashmir. India is simply far more powerful than Pakistan and there is also the possibility that India would use nuclear weapons to prevent the loss of territory. The smart thing would be for Pakistan to accept reality and give up on Kashmir and work to build bridges to India, not Ghauri missiles to India. India is a rising power projected to become a superpower in a few decades. Pakistan is located to it and China. Those two nations will be the two largest economies in the world in 45 years. Pakistan should make peace with India, tether its economy to that of China and India and try to reap as much benefit as it can from the growth of its two giant neighbors.

As things stand now Pakistan risks disintegration and isolation. The terrorism problem in Pakistan in large part exists because Pakistan wanted an army of jihadis to send to Kashmir. Now they are turning their sights on Pakistan and Pakistan has become the world center of international terrorism with Arab terrorists coming to train at terrorist bases on Pakistan. The risk of disintegration is obvious when you have armed groups within a country opposing the government. The risk of isolation is often overlooked. If Pakistan remains the headquarters for global jihad in 5-10 years it would not be surprising if the rest of the world sought to minimize its ties to Pakistan. Why invest in Pakistan when it is unstable? Why send businessmen to Pakistan to encourage trade when they risk being blown up? And so on. Instead of Pakistan benefiting from the growth of China and India, both nations may put up barriers between them and their chaotic neighbor.

Here are Pakistan’s largest trading partners:

                    [Exports - partners](https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/docs/notesanddefs.html?countryName=Pakistan&countryCode=pk&regionCode=sas#2050):                        
                                                                                                          [https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/graphics/field_listing_on.gif](https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/fields/2050.html?countryName=Pakistan&countryCode=pk&regionCode=sas&#pk) US 16%, UAE 11.7%, Afghanistan 8.6%, UK 4.4%, China 4.4% (2008)

                    [Imports - partners](https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/docs/notesanddefs.html?countryName=Pakistan&countryCode=pk&regionCode=sas#2061):                        
                                                                                                          [https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/graphics/field_listing_on.gif](https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/fields/2061.html?countryName=Pakistan&countryCode=pk&regionCode=sas&#pk) China 15.4%, Saudi Arabia 12.2%, UAE 11.3%, Kuwait 5.5%, US 4.8% (2008)

Pakistan trades more with Afghanistan than the second giant to the East. Is this healthy?

niden · September 29, 2009, 9:04pm

Pakistan lost two golden chances of gaining Kashmir one in 1948 and other in 1965.

Anwer_Pasha · September 29, 2009, 9:53pm

I am sorry but this is not true.My father was among them who reached Srinagar power house in 1948 but this was totally a unplanned effort.
!965 is story of braveness of our young officers,jawans and public and a great support by friendly countries but this was a totally unplanned war.
The only chance was 1962 but Ayoub Khan waisted that.

niden · September 30, 2009, 3:39pm

According to "jo main ne dekha" by Rao Rashid EX IG Punjab, said in his book that mujhiden reached Siri Nagar, instead of capturing Siri Nagar, they indulged in "Loot Maar". Lord Mount Batten advised Nehru who became sick on hearing news of near victory of Kashmir by Pakistan, to immediate drop paratroopers from sky and capture the air port. The time lag helped Nehru and he successfully dropped the troopers from sky; they butchered less trained mujhiden or freedom fighters who were still involved in looting Sri Nagar. Quaid-e-Azam lost a great opportunity of gaining Kashmir. Had he planned it properly in other owords, instead of loot maar by mujheden, they shoud have captured Sir Nagar air port, today Kashmir would have part of Pakistan.

mAd_ScIeNtIsT · September 30, 2009, 5:12pm

niden:

According to "jo main ne dekha" by Rao Rashid EX IG Punjab, said in his book that mujhiden reached Siri Nagar, instead of capturing Siri Nagar, they indulged in "Loot Maar". Lord Mount Batten advised Nehru who became sick on hearing news of near victory of Kashmir by Pakistan, to immediate drop paratroopers from sky and capture the air port. The time lag helped Nehru and he successfully dropped the troopers from sky; they butchered less trained mujhiden or freedom fighters who were still involved in looting Sri Nagar. Quaid-e-Azam lost a great opportunity of gaining Kashmir. Had he planned it properly in other owords, instead of loot maar by mujheden, they shoud have captured Sir Nagar air port, today Kashmir would have part of Pakistan.

Impossible. Even if the airport had fallen, in 1948 India still had the majority of the military material of the old British Indian Army. Pakistan lacked the means to defend against any Indian counteroffensive. The lowlands of the Kashmir valley were perfect territory for the Indian army, with their tanks, artillery, and battle-hardened WW2 veterans led by battle-hardened British officers who were also veterans of WW2.

niden · September 30, 2009, 6:01pm

^^^^

Why impossible. According to UN resolution, Kashmir had to become part of Pakistan. In 1948, Indian army was not as organized as it is now. It was not even organized in 1965 when pakistan army ne uske daant khatay kar deyay thay. Had Kashmir bacome part of Pakistan in 1948, India had no moral ground to attack Pakistan and snatch back Kashmir. No way my friend, India had guts to violet UN resolution, in that case India would have been the agressor, Pakistan army with the help of local population could have easily got firm grip on Kashmir.

In 1948, Pakistan army ko chorhian nahin warsay main milee thein. It had the same type of arms and ammunition which India inherited from British. More over most of the officers also faught side by side with Britishers against Germany in WW2.

aam_bandha · September 30, 2009, 6:41pm

....... and then you woke up ..... :D