1965 War

Society Pakistan & World Affairs
1

6 September was used to be national defense day and holiday for Pakistan. I think it is no more and people have already forgotten the golden period of unity during 1965 war.

Pakistan was fighting proxy war in Kashmir, and was very much successful. India knew that if something was not done quickly, Kashmir was going to be captured by “freedom fighters” India started the full war with Pakistan on September 16, 1965. That was the wonderful time for Pakistanis (Including Bengalis of East Pakistan yes Bengalis), to become one united nation. Ayub Khan started the proxy war in Kashmir in August 65 which was converted to full war on 6th September 1965.

How Pakistani army, navy and air force backed by people of West and East Pakistan, fought with India 10 times bigger than India, perhaps Indians would tell. Pakistan fought gallantly with the spirit of unity, never in history of Pakistan ever achieved. Few who fought and died with respect and honor will always be remembered

  1. Major Raja Aziz Bhatti Shaheed, nishan-e-hyder, saver of Lahore
  2. Flying Officer Younis, who crashed his damaged plane (damaged by Indian anti air craft gun) on 17 Indian bombers ready to fly and bomb Pakistan. All 17 planes with airport destroyed and their pilots killed. India mourn that incident for three days
  3. Wing Commander M.M. Aalam, who flew F104 (new version is F16), with in thirteen seconds he destroyed five Indian planes in mid air.
  4. Hurs of Pir Pagara, captured train full of amunition in side the Indian border in Thar desert and brought intact in side Pakistan. No regular forces were covering that side of border. Civilians were fighting side by side with the regular army.:slight_smile:

There were many such heroic incidents which took place during 1965 war. People can add to my list. Had Ayub Khan not stopped the war on September 22 1965 (17 days only), Kashmir might have now part of Pakistan. It is sad that not only Pakistan lost Kashmir forever, but also other major part in 1971. Had dictators behaved sanely by transferring power to democracy, Pakistan perhaps would have in much better shape now.

Ayub Khan a corrupt dictator, plunged Pakistani economy to rock bottom after the 65 war, which never recovered. He should not have started the war at the first place. If he had started the war, should have continued to logical conclusion. It is a shame what that dictator done to Pakistan in the sixties. When he signed the cease fire, Lal Bahadur Shastri, the India PM died of heart attack due to excitement of joy and happiness.

Tarikh ka ek purana panna. is tasweer mein, Yahya Khan, hero of Ran of Kach fight and successor of Ayub Khan (Preferred to break the country rather than handing power to Bengalis) and General Musa (Later a useless Governor of Pakistan) nazar arahay hein.

2

Re: 1965 War

1965 war is story of brave Pakistani officers and soldiers which saved Pakistan.Great effort by people of Pakistan and their friends but without a results. Ayoub khan had already lost the only chance during indo-china war but after loosing his popularty in election against Fatima Jenah and keeping in his mind about moral support from Muslim countries and third world for Pakistan he started this play but could never stay against American pressure.

The Hi/Bye Thread
The Hi/Bye Thread
3

Here I might add that Ayub Khan is the youngest full general in Pakistan’s military history.

Ayub was only 43 - most officers would be glad to be Lt. colonel or colonel at that age - when he was made a 4-star general replacing general Sir Douglas Gracey as the Commander-in-Chief of the Pakistan Army in 1951
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayub_Khan

4

Why is it that whenever Pakistan is winning the war, some traitor stops the war.
It happened in 65
It happened in Kargil.
Am not sure what happened in 1948 though
Even in 1972 it was a mistake by some general.

5

Re: 1965 War

LOL @ the original poster who think Wing Commander Alam got his kills in a F-104.

The Hi/Bye Thread
6

Wars between India and Pak are the biggest e$tupitees.

Two bhookay nangay mulk are wasting away their precious resources on toys they buy and beg from the industrialized countries.

1965 and the events leading up to the war should not have occurred.

And so

was the occupation of Siachin by India or the encroachment by Pak into Kargil .

India was the biggest e$tupeed country to send in troops in an internationally recognized country.

But alas,

both India and Pak are wedded to their history where petty rajas destroyed and raped each other, while foreign powers had a field day invading these pathetic raja-shahi territories.

Mark my words. India and Pak will keep on repeating the same old mistakes, and Afghan hoards will show up in Delhi within the next 50 years.

That is if we continue to ignore the lessons from our history.

7

Care to elaborate on these Afghan 'hoards' are we talking Durranesque invasion of Delhi or a Ghaznavi style sacking?

Speaking of the 1965 War, I blame Bhutto. ZAB was intimately involved in the STUPID invasion of Kashmir, his political career was furthered with the signing of Tashkent, and he promptly resigned and removed himself from Ayub's government to disassociate himself politically.

Pakistan's upward economic trajectory was greatly harmed by this meaningless conflict. In fact, Pakistan should have hit in 1962 when the Chinese were fully engaging the Indians on several fronts.

Winning arguments to loose atl life
8

Yeap. Internal disintegration in the subcontinent means, both external and internal warlords will be having a lot of "fun".

Will be similar but much larger version of the current Afghan instability and the resulting warlordism.

May be true. Ultimately the decision to start insurrection was a Pak government decision.

Pakistan was not ready otherwise the Pak gov would have taken an action. There were other global considerations during 1962 Indo-China issue as well.

Yeap. That's true. Wars are costly. In fact we have made similar mistakes by initiating Kargil, and doing the nukie explosions.

All of these e$tupiditees resulted in a great harm to our economy.

9

Instead of being sarcastic, make corrections man. M. M. Aalam was hero in 1965 war, are you denying this?

10

Citation

.
“ “On 6th September, 1965, during an aerial combat over enemy territory, Squadron Leader Mohammad Mahmood Alam flying as pilot of an F-86 Sabre Jet, shot down two enemy Hunter aircraft and damaged three others. For the exceptional flying skill and valor displayed by Squadron Leader Mohammad Mahmood Alam in operations, he was awarded Sitara-i-Juraat. On 7th September, 1965, in a number of interception missions flown by Squadron Leader Mohammad Mahmood Alam against enemy aircraft attacking Pakistan Air Force Station, Sargodha, Squadron Leader Alam destroyed five more enemy Hunter aircraft in less than a minute, which remains a record until today. Overall, he had nine kills and two damages to his credit. For the exceptional flying skill and valour shown by him in pressing home his attacks in aerial combats with the enemy, Squadron Leader Mohammad Mahmood Alam is awarded a bar to his Sitara-i-Juraat.” [6]

Muhammad Mahmood Alam - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

p.s. Even though we all should admire the bravery of Pak army officers and jawans, we should still oppose the initiation of hostilities against India. It damages us more than them.

11

Thanks BurqaposhX,

It is an eye opener for mAd_ScIeNtIsT the moderator who can LOL on the past heroes. Had M. M. Aalam been pilot of India or some Western country, how much respect he would have gotten, is beyond the imagination of any paki, who can only LOL on their heroes.

My mistake was I mentioned F104 instead of F-86 (I think it was even an older version) and I promomted him to Wing Commander (He derserved to be promoted to Air Marshal) instead of Squadron Leader. Rest was more than 100% truth about his heroic act in 1965 war.

12

Agreed on most points. ZAB was instrumental in 'selling' the idea to the ruling elite. I'm not trying to make him the fall guy, but rather an overlooked key player leading up to the war.

Yes, we could have had it all in '62 but Kennedy stepped in. For a country of India's size , it has not fought well in wars. The '62 war was decisive in China's favor while a stalemate with Pakistan in '65 (a country 1/10 in size).

Our economy has continued to be set back by these shocks but it has been remarkably resilient if you look at decade by decade growth.

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13

I agree that India did not do as well in the 1965 war as it could have. Indian leadership was stupid to trust the Chinese (resulting in the 1962 loss) and the Pakistanis. Moreover, India was rebuilding its military after the 1962 loss to China.

However, this changed once Indira Gandhi came to power. She believed in taking the fight to the enemy's camp and the result was the creation of Bangladesh in 1971. If the US had not heard Pak's pleas in 1999 and made the withdraw, the end result would have been much worse for Pak.

14

India's losses have nothing to do with "trusting" either China or Pakistan. India and Pakistan had already fought in 1948 where (if you take the Indian perspective) 1/3 of Kashmir was lost to Pakistan and Aksai Chin to China, so it's not like the Indian leadership was completely unaware of the regional hostilities.

Indira was definitely the Iron Lady of India. The losses in 1971 were incredibly decisive for Pakistan, but let us not forget that the local population (E. Pakistanis) was openly hostile to Pakistani military due to the political repression and military violence before India had gotten involved. But a loss is a loss.

I am not sure how much worse of a loss it would have been in 99 with Kargil. Unlike the previous wars, Pakistan, newly a declared nuclear power would always have that option and with the impending loss of the major population centers, would exercise it. Pakistani military and command structure is surprisingly apocalyptic in that respect.

I don't think Pakistan represents that threat to India, as eyes have turned to China. I don't think China would attack India at any juncture, but Indian anxieties clearly reaching a fevered pitch vis-a-vis the rise of China's military power. If you make an honest assesment of India's capabilities versus China (an equal regional power) the situation turns bleaker for the Indian side.

Like I have been saying in the past, wars with India are not to Pakistan's benefit economically. Even the '65 wrecked our economy for DECADES. I don't think an open firendship with India is possible either, so the idea of "good fences make good neighbors" is probably the way to go.

Personally I don't mind working with Indians or even Israelis where the collaboration yields the best outcomes. In the global context economic interests should be separated from political ones.

15

Oh bhai,

Leave this bravado for the uneducated.

India may be mighty fighty. But Pakistan can easily hold on its own. Time and again we have shown you guys not to mess with us. We may be small, and we suffer pain at the hands of our neighbor, but in the long run we can reply in kind.

Do not try to read too much into BDesh fiasco. That area for us was like Fukland and UK that is 1000's of miles away piece of swamp.

India's perceived win in BDesh is no better than bunch of Jihadis who attack innocent civilians and then boast about it.

In reality India's despicable role of creating and pushing 60,000 insurgents in to East Pakistan was like Iranian Ayatullahs pushing insurgents in Iraq.

Indira's action were just like the actions of Baitullah Mahsood, and guess what she died like Baitullah too.

So come down to earth and live in the present.
**
As mentioned earlier in this thread, that is just e$tupeed for Pak and Indis to fight each other or disrespect each other. It hurts us both, because we belong to the same soil, same rivers, and the same mountains. If one is hurt, the other will bleed too.

Thank you./b/

16

Well, it might surprise you but Indian leadership was actually napping despite the regional hostilities. Nehru was working on "Hindi Cheeni Bhai Bhai" while the Chinese were making military preparations. Similarly, Pak was also not seen as a threat (big mistake). The situation was repeated by Vajpayee in 1999 with the bus trip & other peace overtures towards Pak, while Pak was planning Kargil. Luckily we were much better off militarily in 1999 compared to 1965 and that helped us.

Pak tried to use local support in Kashmir in 1965 to defeat India, but that plan backfired. India used that same tactic successfully in 1971. As they say what goes around, comes around...

India cannot match up to China in conventional military prowess. The Chinese economy is a lot bigger, and they spend a bigger chunk of their GDP on defence spending. However, China realizes that India will not be a push over in a war and a war with India would cause a great loss to the Chinese economy. So for now, I dont expect China to initiate open hostilities.

17

[quote="burqaposhx, post:71, topic:207729"]

Oh bhai,

Leave this bravado for the uneducated.

India may be mighty fighty. But Pakistan can easily hold on its own. Time and again we have shown you guys not to mess with us. We may be small, and we suffer pain at the hands of our neighbor, but in the long run we can reply in kind.

Do not try to read too much into BDesh fiasco. That area for us was like Fukland and UK that is 1000's of miles away piece of swamp.

India's perceived win in BDesh is no better than bunch of Jihadis who attack innocent civilians and then boast about it.

In reality India's despicable role of creating and pushing 60,000 insurgents in to East Pakistan was like Iranian Ayatullahs pushing insurgents in Iraq.

Indira's action were just like the actions of Baitullah Mahsood, and guess what she died like Baitullah too.

So come down to earth and live in the present.
**
As mentioned earlier in this thread, that is just e$tupeed for Pak and Indis to fight each other or disrespect each other. It hurts us both, because we belong to the same soil, same rivers, and the same mountains. If one is hurt, the other will bleed too.

Thank you.

I dont need to prove anything to you. The creation of Bangladesh is proof enough.

And the tactic used in Bagnladesh is no different than what Pakistan employed in 1948, 1965 & 1999 and has been trying ever since in Kashmir, Mumbai & other parts of the country. The only difference is that we employed the tactic more successfully and got a decisive win.

18

haahh. Man you ought to read beyond the basic high school books about Indian history.

Nehru or Vajpai were no kids on the block. They may make statements, but Indian baboos and the generals were never napping. I think you are now belittling Indian intelligence.

That's not good.

Indian leadership is good at playing chess. Every once in a while the best players get check mated. it doesn't mean the loser was napping.

namaste Bahi log.

19

oh yeah, 600 men hold your entire hijra army at bay for months, you didn't move them one inch and results would be worse for Pakistan? get outta here, go tell your army to rape and slaughter the innocent of Kashmir 'cuz that's the only thing they can do. Resorting to terror tactics of training mukti banis to fight against Pakistan which result in the creation of Bangladesh is nothing to be proud of, but then again what would that nation know of pride whose army gets hammered time and time again by fighting a country 10 times less it's size. shame.

20

Keep believing that if you want to :)

Bottomline is that 1962/1965 was/is not the same as 1971/1999/2009. I daresay our media sometimes errs on the side of hyper-reacting to perceived threats from China (and to a lesser extent Pak) but thats anyday better than the common man being lulled into a false sense of security by the country's leaders.