18% of this world's population is Muslims

Society Religion & Philosophy
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Re: 18% of this world's population is Muslims

Can you be a little more detailed to your objections. Would love to discuss.

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Re: 18% of this world’s population is Muslims

Funny isn’t it, iam asking how come barbarians never converted whole population of India to Islam? and instead of answering, u are running here and there!! i wonder why?

first try to hide behind a saint then sassnids and now with a question which is actually my question.

so what if i answer that people of these countries were mentally more matured then the people of India, thats y they accepted the rightful religion!

now please answer my question and dont be a fool again by asking a question in answer of a question.. please dont say that, Indians had more powerfull religion then Islam is and their mental capabilities are far stronger than of these people… history speaks for itself… i found no aristotle or Plato in ancient indian history…

Please Now answer this simple question:

Why the barbarians never forced the whole population of India to Convert to Islam ?( in your words they did that to other places)
And this time answer please

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Re: 18% of this world's population is Muslims

Waiting for it toooooooooooooooooo.

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Re: 18% of this world's population is Muslims

I think I have already made it clear......Umar and his army-commanders were nothing but invaders....I have no objection if Muslims consider him highly respectable or holy man beacause of his strong belief in religion.........there may be many people who might be stronger in belief but that does not mean that they turned themselves into invaders.

Honestly, if you go by history....keeping religion seperate....Umar was an invader similiar to George W Bush of today's time..

I have only objection when many people here glorify Umar without caring much about his aggressions.

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Re: 18% of this world's population is Muslims

I guess you are trying to divert the debate from Umar's invasion to Islamic invasion of India.

You are also trying to turn the debate into Islam is "powerful". and rest all faiths are nothing......typical of you.

How can anyone prove that what Faith is "powerful".

Obviously you have no idea about history of Indian subcontinent and Vedic Sanatan Dharma.

Islam got it's foot in mainly northern and eastern part of India and millions got converted....it's a fact.

However it doesnot mean that those of majority who didn't submittted themselves to Arab faith are a symbol of justification for invasion of by Islamists.

Debate here was invasion of Islamists and forceful conversions rather than "powerful" faith.

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Re: 18% of this world's population is Muslims

It's really laughable-- when entire west has acknowledged the Vedic Indian sub-continent as one of the greatest and most ancient contributors in spirituality, and civilization.....now you are questioning that people in Indian sub-continent were mentaly ill than your highly respectable Arab godfathers.....I really can't stop laughing...though it's disgusting that you are from the same subcontinent and probably your ancestors were same people adhering to Dharma who got converted either forcefully or on their own.

Only for your kind information that much before when Islam was invented in Arabia, people in the subcontinent already compiled and accepted the following Darshans----

  1. Sankhya
  2. Yog Darshan
  3. Nyaya
  4. Uttar and Purva Mimasa
  5. Charvak Mat

These above darshans were widely debated and accepted keeping Vedas as central and Upanishads(Vadanta) as explanation.

What Arabs came to know in 7th century was already known and compiled in above Darhans much much before that.

If you think that majority did not accpeted Arabs system of belief(Islam) because they were mentally ill then I have nothing to say.

I do not have enough Time and writing skill to give you endless discourses of Vedanta...only to prove that this belief is ''powerful'' and others are weak.
I also hate to quote Sanskrit texts from Upanishads at the drop of hat....like you people do in case of any debate hear....quoting endless verses from Quran and Hadeeth.

So it is fair to say.....You happy with your belief....let others be happy with their belief.

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Re: 18% of this world's population is Muslims

again u never answered my simple question.. and contd. running here and there.... :D

i dont know why in most of indians cannot answer these questions

and most of europeans cannot answer that the BARBARIANS never forced Islam on the whole SPAIN as they ruled there for 800 years?

Why Barbarians never forced Balqanians to convert when they were they there for about 200 years or more...

the simple reason to for not answering this and bringing Syssanids and other into discussion is that one dont want to acknowledge the fact that, MUSLIMS only ENFORCED their system and not the religion.. this is another fact that this religion was adopted by the poors/weaks of other religion as they see it their saviour.

u didn;t needed writing skills to answer this simple questions all u needed was to be fair.. which i guess u cannot be... i can see that from ur replies.

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Re: 18% of this world's population is Muslims

Another funny statement:

[QUOTE]
Only for your kind information that much before when Islam was invented in Arabia, people in the subcontinent already compiled and accepted the following Darshans----

  1. Sankhya
  2. Yog Darshan
  3. Nyaya
  4. Uttar and Purva Mimasa
  5. Charvak Mat These above darshans were widely debated and accepted keeping Vedas as central and Upanishads(Vadanta) as explanation.

What Arabs came to know in 7th century was already known and compiled in above Darhans much much before that
[/QUOTE]

they already knew it, but never implemented it rather they continue burning widows alive, they continued human sacrifice, they contd. practicing caste system.. and list goes on buddy...question still stand still, if they knew it, they must be knowing the fruits of implenting of these.. then they y didn't do it?

I guess i like my first question this will be remain unanswered

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Re: 18% of this world's population is Muslims

Let me first have two options
1) Umar is glorified in Islam, leaving that aside i want more detalis from your side, as I can compare with your proff to mine.
2) If the points you ahve mentioned are wrong, I am only hear to tell you the truth, because neither Umar nor anyone on the face of earthy can save me from the JD except Allaah.

Let me go ahead with the third option
3) If you dont wanna continue this debate henceforth, i feel all the accusations have been hurled due to lack of evidence and would just dump it as one more tactic to prove the muslims wrong.

Because with these kind of discussions, its stops being fruitful when accusation takes in place of information, and hence its mud slinging rather than facing the truth and learning more about history.

My only, request is if I am lacking knowledge on these particular things please be more detailed and correct me and vice versa. At this stage, i want you to give me the books you have referred to, because accusation without proof is not possible.

Secondly we dont glorify Umar as muslims, we respect him and this is the last time i will have to tell this, we as Muslims only Glorify Allaah, and if Umar is committed such heinous crime Allaah will take care of him, i am just requesting you for a healthy debate as well as brother USR.

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Re: 18% of this world's population is Muslims

Okk...I replace the word glorify with praise/higher respect or whatever you consider suitable at this occasion.

I am not talking about you as an individual praising Umar.......But there is one guy who has started an entire thread praising Umar, in this forum only.

And lastly, my opinion about Umar is not an accusation, it's a fact.

I ONLY said Umar was an** invader, **a fact neverthless.

Without giving any link I said this because of past readings in books (and these are authentic histories of Zoroatrian-Parsi communities in Mumbai).

I am not sure if they are available online...it has been more than 4 years since have left Mumbai.

If you consider that Zoroastrians-Parsis were biased against Islam as faith that is why they termed Umar as "invader".
In that case...If you think Umar was NOT an invader and I am accusing him because I have some kind of agenda against faith of Islam...then please go ahead and give me more information that Umar was not an invader and I will appreciate that with open mind, as long as you will give information in light of invasion without mixing it with arguement of faith.

Also apart from being Invader....some western writers like Wilfred Madelung and M. Bonner have said that Umar ordered the expulsion of all Jews and Christians from certain areas of Saudi Arabia near Jeddah.....he also imposed entry ban in these areas to all these kaafirs.

This proves that after death of Mohammad....it was Umar who forced many non-muslims to leave their homeland which belonged to them much before the Islam came in existence....there only fault was that they were not ready to accept new religion.

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Re: 18% of this world's population is Muslims

I don't understand, Why you are unable to get answer of your first question....as you say if all of India didn't got converted to Islam, is this justification for invasion????....your and my opinion differs by miles.

I have already told you that these invaders were not able to convert all of India into Islam was because of sheer class and superiority of our culture--compared to your beloved Arabs and of course Non-Dualistc teachings of Vedanta philosophy....which time and again has proved-- contains essence of all philosophies.

And as you said rightly there were sick rituals like widow-burning and caste system of 'uneducated" Brahmins---But you know millions of those in this subcontinent (and this includes you) who got converted was a result of this.

So what's great in that....I agree there were totally mad systems like widow burning and Islam as well as Christian Missionaries of British India exploited this very well to win as many converts as possible.

And these sick systems are no way in accordance with Vedas.........Look after reforms introdced by many Yogis during British India...result is that these sick rituals are extinct in modern India.

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Re: 18% of this world's population is Muslims

Thats the point my brother,

In quran it is said that, Allah All Mighty have sent his message to every corner of the world, to every race the divine message has been sent.
( i'll come back to this later in this post)

Dr. Radha Kishan, says that, Hindu does not worship these idols, they just use it as a way to focus and transition point to the supreme authority which we call Allah and Hindu may call Maha-dev or Bhagwan.
same idealogy was practised by arabs of 7th century.

(coming back to earlier comment of mines)
My info (to date, still working on it) says that prophets were sent in this region as well. they came and delivered the message of the Supreme Authority, but with the passage of time and due to some other factors their message/scriptures has been altered to suit someone in power. thats why all that evils entered in the society.. and it was not only India, the whole world was suffering from the same...

The Jews, Christains and Zoroastrian had the same message, and i have no doubts that indians never got it. it was there all the time but like jews, chirstains and zoroastrian it got altered.

If u are really interested in comapritve study of religion, read and understand quran, Bible and books of other religions... interestingly they have lots in common...

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Re: 18% of this world's population is Muslims

^ I Agree.....Faiths commands to believe in God.....it's only concepts or rituals which differ.

Neither in present nor in past....one cannot enforce once ritual upon others claiming superiority.....however if someone considers rituals in some faith as more attractive and more suitable in God-Realization and accepts it whole-heartedly then it's justified.

Invading a civilization to impose a ritual is never justified.....that's what history teaches all.....History is nothing but to learn lessons....belief remains intact.

To me beliefs are personal.

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Re: 18% of this world's population is Muslims

Alhamdolillah that 1 in every 5th or 6th person will be saved from Eternal Hell fire atleast InshAllah!
Excellent!

Oh Allah please guide all of humanity to the right path! (ameen)

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Re: 18% of this world's population is Muslims

[quote]
Also, people converted (particularly lower castes) because of those Upper Caste morons who mis-interpreted Manusmriti and invented the Caste system for a few peoples benefit....this actually harmed Dharma and those who believed in this...since majority of people during that time were not aware of Vedas and Upanishads---it's true interpretation.
[/quote]

What was misinterpreted about it? The racist caste system (class based on birth rather than conscious belief/action) has clear roots in your sacred scriptures…

Recent people like Rammohan Roy and Mahatma Gandhi who were impressed and enlightened by the more civilised religions such as Islam and Christianity but were too arrogant and proud to convert tried to modernise Hinduism and bring it in line with international sensibilities but their politically-correct but Hindually-incorrect interpretations of Hindu scripture failed miserably, the only people who subscribe to their views are the few westernised atheist/agnostic Hindus that have no faith in Hindu scripture as being divine but follow Hindu rituals and identify as Hindu merely as a part of culture… Most Hindus follow and believe in the racism they have believed in for thousands of years and don’t subscribe to these new politically correct interpretations which are merely less than a century old.

Does it not say in the 10th book of the Reg-Veda in the Purushasuktam hymn that that the four Varnas (castes/races) were created from the different body parts of Purusha and are meant to do the jobs associated with those body parts? The Brahmins (priestly race) came from his mouth, Kshtariyas (imperial-warrior race) from his arms, Vaishyas (businessmen) from his thighs, the Shudras (menial workers) who are considered the lowest race came from his feet… The poor Outcaste Dalits who are considered Maleecha (filthy) are considered lowest of the low, they are even below the Shudras and don’t have a place in the caste system, Muslims and Christians get the same treatment.

The later scriptures such as Bhagvat-Gita, Ramayana, Mahabharata and Manusmriti also make references and support for the caste system… Most importantly of all Manusmriti is quite elaborate on the caste system, I’m sure as a Hindu you can read it up yourself and see what it has to say about race, superiority, inferiority and killing and mutilating low castes for crimes that are not crimes at all…

…To this day most devote Hindus especially in rural parts of India follow the racist system endorsed by their religion, Dalits are massacred in Maharasthra and it is hushed up and the government doesn’t take any action because it is not worth tarnishing the country’s image over a ‘filthy’ Dalit, Dalits were denied entrance to a Jagannadha temple in Orissa (I forgot low castes are not entitled to spirituality, Ram kills Shambuka the Shudra in Ramayana simply for doing Tapasya as a low-caste), hotels still keep separate glasses for high castes and low castes, a white westerner bribes somebody to get into a Hindu temple where they don’t allow foreigners/non-Hindus and when they find out he’s been there they discard the 10’s of thousands rupees worth Prasad food because he being a ‘filthy foreigner’ ‘contaminated’ it just by being in the same complex even though thousands of children starve in India, if a Muslim visits a certain place it is ritually purified with cow urine, if a Hindu politician shakes hands with a Muslim she/he washes it afterwards, in certain villages low-castes are obliged to wear bells like animals to warn high-caste Hindus that they were coming so that the latter could get out of the way as even the shadow of a low caste is considered polluting to the Hindu Brahmin.

We hear from the elders that before 1947 partition the local Khatri Hindus who lived in Muslim villages considered Muslims filthy so the majority Muslims respected this and wouldn’t drink out of the clay water pots Hindus had in their shops, if a Muslims lady made a vegetarian dish and gave it to her Hindu neighbour she would know that it went straight in the garbage but she gave it anyway as a symbol of friendship.

We’re not stupid you know, we know exactly how racist and xenophobic you Hindus can be, we don’t bring these things up because we know religion is a sensitive topic and how these things feel but when arrogant Hindus like you show superiority complex and get all haughty on your high horses singling mud on our religion you need to be put in your place…

…It’s not your fault, I guess India claims to be a secular multi-religious country and it may have secular laws but in reality for most Hindus Indianness = Hinduness, your nationalism is based on Muslimphobia and on attributing every ill in the world to Muslims, Muslims are made to feel like foreign invaders when the majority of them were locals who converted, occasionally when you are putting on a façade of Muslim-friendliness it is towards a ‘Hinduised Islam’ dictated by you, not a free Islam for what it is meant to be (e.g. pictures of the Prophet in textbooks as ‘Ishvar Ka Peghambar’ when idolatry is forbidden by him, people in political positions having Arabic names as a false facade but Hindu in every other way).

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Re: 18% of this world's population is Muslims

Well Sir, first off Invader from only the perspective of those defeated i.e. Persians. Let us not forget the Persian empire was the mightiest empire of its time and being in that position it was the one that invaded or harassed bordering areas. The Persians, did not even consider the Arabs worth fighting.

Invade is a strong word coming from Persian historians whose own empire grew through invasions and wars.

Invasions happen when one side is not even being belligerent and are still conquered, this is not the case between the Persian and muslim wars of Umar's RA era. It would not be incorrect to say that the muslim wars were instigated as defensive wars and after that it is simply war. Those who get defeated have to live with the consequences and that is the simple reality of war or a fore-thought before even going to war. Every war entails a risk to your population/lands/possessions should you be defeated.

As for the expulsion, let us not talk in general terms, please refer to incidents with names so we can discuss with the proper historical context.

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Re: 18% of this world’s population is Muslims

It is evident where Matrubhoomi gets his knowledge of Islaam from… Don’t base your view of Islam on anti-Muslim propoganda by Hindutva Pundits or foreign-agent ran “Islamic” websites to malign our beautiful Deen.

Do you even know what a Dhimmi (Non-Muslim citizen of Islamic-Land) is?

The Prophet Muhammed :saw: is reported to have said in Ahadith that

**“He who hurts a Dhimmi hurts me and he who hurts me hurts Allaah.” **

“Whoever makes a snide comment to a Dhimmi has earned Hell.”

“Whoever does wrong to a Mu’aahad (a Kaafir who has a treaty with the Muslims), or tries to put him down, or burdens him with more than he can bear, or takes something from him without his consent, I will be his opponent on the Day of Resurrection.”

The Ahl ud-Dhimma (People under Protection) be they from the People of the Scripture (Jews, Christians etc.) or not (Zoroastrians etc.) are to live under Muslim rule in protection, peace, freedom of religion and with their own courts of law.. Muslims are to protect them, fight to defend them and if any of them are needy help them through Sadqah.

In return the healthy adult males are required to pay a tax called Jizyah which is within their capacity, Jizyah is not required of women, children etc. Jizyah is similar to the Zakaah we Muslims have to pay, and yes Zakaah is compulsory/obligatory on Muslims and not optional like you stated (speaks volumes about your knowledge of Islaam).

The conversion of Persians to Islaam was gradual and didn’t happen straight after the Muslim conquest which shows they chose it of their own will… Islaam was well established in the Subcontinent before any Mughal or Muslim king/soldier set foot there unlike what your Pundits tell you… The Mughals did many unIslamic things, they might have misused the concept of Jizyah and taxed people heavily for their own desires but you can’t hold Islam/Muslims accoutable for that, in fact they weren’t even concerned with spreading Islam but their own enjoyment be that Hindu princesses as wives, alcohol or fancy buildings… Muslims ruled India for so long, had Muslims forced you to convert they could have done it quite easily, after all you are Baniyas.

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Re: 18% of this world’s population is Muslims

Rightly said about Dhimmi. People have tried to use the word as if it is a gaali to them whereas it is simply a title endowed by the Muslim state. People think saying Dhimmi has a negative connotation without even understanding what it is.

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Re: 18% of this world’s population is Muslims

^
Yep, it is all thanks to the propoganda by Christians, Jews and Hindus who are jealous of the glory of Islaam and to some extent bad Muslim Rulers and their Darbari-Mullahs who used Islamic concepts like this for their own benefits instead of following the clear commands of Khuda :swt: and Peghambar :saw:…

Ever read their propoganda newspapers or websites? Man they can chat some ****. We’re always in the limelight lol, well who cares, let the haters hate, it use to bother me, really realy get to me and upset me but ever since I got back into Islaam I’ve found strength so that I don’t care what the Non-Muslims have got to say about us anymore..

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Re: 18% of this world's population is Muslims

Toole e Aftab kya ab scholar hain, a well structured answer.