"17 Terror Arrests in Toronto"/ Toronto Trial - merged threads

Re: “17 Terror Arrests in Toronto”

[quote=“Fraudz”]
1)no real proof will be shared until legal proceedings have begun, you may get tidbits of info but thats it GOOD, so they should avoid "press conderence if they have nothing intelligent to tell
2)false proof? how do you know sitting a thousand miles away if the proof was false..sherlock
i’m lazy i only read that thread:

  1. hey I would take this media circus anyday over people’s heads being chopped off in soccer stadiums, but thats a diff topic.
    I don’t have double standards, to me both are equally an insult to human rights

  2. list of names that are exotic because these are the names. what other names do you want, change these guys names to bob jones? or to just get some randon people to make the balance of names exotic and run of the mill?
    I don’t want names to be fed to extremists nazi that will hunt them like the middleaged people burning witches

  3. privacy of life? hey in my city when someone is arrested it is in the paper, whether it is for drunk driving or for breaking and entering. why should this be different?
    In my city it is not, i live somewhere where freedom has some value

detectives, polie and judges should do their work independently. Whether or not they are puppets in the hands of TV (or in pahia i.e. wheel jaam hartaals in some countries by certain groups) is their own responsibility./quote

Re: "17 Terror Arrests in Toronto"

Evidence, guilt or innocence...the damage has been done and is being done. The IRA killed innocents for years without this much hype about terrorism.

Now we have police shooting innocents dead with no reprocussions and the media on a feeding frenzy, cartoons, alqaeda, iraq, afganistan..all the anglo saxons lined up against th muslims..the public in each country encouraged to stereotype by the govrnments and media..."let the next invasion beginwe've had enough of thse mooslims"

Re: "17 Terror Arrests in Toronto"

dilemma: let the guilty roam free or persecute the innocent. pick one.

Re: "17 Terror Arrests in Toronto"

Sorry but they need to have press conferences to share with public what they can share, would you have rather them take the suspects in custody and not utter a word? that would get civil rights groups up in arms about access and public knowledge and what nots

the bag was there as an illustrative example. had they planted some false evidence that would be something different, here its just shown as an example. can not be considered 'false evidence'

well laws are laws and if names are made public regardless, then why make exceptions in this case. yeah its bad for the families and they should watch out for idiots from attacking them (kinda like their own family member idiots were allegedly planning to attack other innocent people like extremist nazis)

well, I am sure your city has its own share of problems, and if your city is the one which is part of your nick, then we saw what social justice and freedom means in that city. The arab ghettos in paris speak volumes about the freedom and justice in that city and society :)

Re: "17 Terror Arrests in Toronto"

These guys were nabbed in mistake. In the new recipe book I am about to publish, ammonium nitrate is a secret ingredient for making the best chili ever!! It will blow your stomach away!

Ok ok, it was just a joke. Please don't kill me for it.

On a more serious note, I usually like to sit on these news and wait until something becomes clear before putting out an opinion.

Re: "17 Terror Arrests in Toronto"

I feel the same way.

As a visible Muslim, I've gotten weird looks and have overheard whispered conversations. I have even had ppl yell obscenities at me as they drive past me. Now it will just get worse. Inshallah Allah swt will make it easy for all Muslims during this difficult time.

Re: “17 Terror Arrests in Toronto”

Sorry, which papers were you reading? I recall massive headlines, ongoing columns and reports on the IRA. I recall stories on IRA on ITV, BBC1, and you name the paper ranging from financial times to guardian to mirror and heck even radio times and tv times.

Re: “17 Terror Arrests in Toronto”

Here are some of articles out of the Toronto Star.

This first one was well put.

Police put on a `good spectacle’
Snipers, leg irons, selected evidence, police brass — all calculated to sway the public, lawyers and security experts say
Jun. 5, 2006. 08:16 AM
LINDA DIEBEL
STAFF REPORTER

“A good spectacle … theatrical atmosphere … like 24 … an awards show.”
Reviews for a Mirvish production, right? Maybe a Hollywood blockbuster or fast-paced new action series on Fox?

Wrong. It’s how several lawyers and security experts describe the sombre, indeed frightening, events which transpired in the GTA over the past weekend.
At a news conference Saturday, a dozen of the highest-ranking police officers in the province gathered to announce that an alleged terrorist cell had been shut down before it could explode a truck bomb three times more powerful than the device used in Oklahoma City. They were circumspect about Operation O-Sage, arguing time constraints in the preparation of evidence as well as police procedure.

The anti-terrorism task force was careful about the wording of its news release, saying that the group “took steps to acquire” the three tonnes of ammonium nitrate, a popular fertilizer used to make bombs. As well, they laid out selected evidence for the photographers and TV crews, showing only “sample” bags of ammonium nitrate.

Meanwhile, under massive police security which included sharpshooters on nearby roofs and tactical squad officers with submachine-guns, suspects were brought in leg irons to the provincial courthouse in Brampton. There, in Room 101, Justice of the Peace John Farnum postponed bail hearings until tomorrow morning.

For the experts contacted by the Star, these events were as much about creating an image for the public as about charging the individuals. And it’s an image, they argue, that could hurt the right of the accused — 12 men and five youths — to a fair trial.

Being on message — “on script” as the spin doctors put it — is a concept more easily associated with politicians than police chiefs. But for a veteran of the criminal justice system like Toronto lawyer Walter Fox, it’s the obvious lens through which to judge events.

The principal audience, in his view, is the Canadian public.
“Police think they have to present a show of force to advance the public’s understanding that these guys are dangerous,” said Fox. "Does it prejudice the mind of the public? I think so.
“As a criminal lawyer, I am well aware that police and the prosecution are never stronger than at the moment when they’ve brought their suspects into court for the first time. I’ve also learned that the stronger the police seem to be at this point, the more suspicious I become that they don’t have a complete case.”

Overall, Fox tends to believe that the checks and balances of the justice system will probably win out. David Jacobs, a Toronto lawyer with extensive experience in international human rights law, is less sure.
“The fanfare around the arrests creates such a theatrical atmosphere one wonders if it is necessary for the enforcement of justice… It raises the emotional level without necessarily shedding any light,” he said.
In Brampton Saturday, lawyer Anser Farooq, who represents five of the accused, clearly saw the image of snipers on the roof and police armed to the teeth as negative to his clients. “This is ridiculous,” he told the Star. “They’ve got soldiers here with guns. This is going to completely change the atmosphere.”

Inside, lawyer Rocco Galati, representing two suspects, complained to Farnum about the leg irons and armed officers in the courtroom, adding: “I do not feel safe with an automatic weapon facing in my direction.”
Police evidence was carefully chosen for the news conference, held at the Toronto Congress Centre by the RCMP-led National Security Enforcement Team.

The chief speaker was RCMP Assistant Commissioner Mike McDonell, and lined up behind him were chiefs of police from Toronto, York, Durham and Peel regions, as well as representatives from the Ontario Provincial Police and the Canadian Security Intelligence Service.
“When I saw all that brass lined up with every cop in southern Ontario and Canada telling us what a wonderful job they had done, I thought it was like an awards show,” said Fox. “Everybody will tell you it’s standard but they are all working to influence the public.”

He had questions, as did Jacobs, about exactly how three tonnes of ammonium nitrate were “acquired” by the suspects. The Star has learned that when investigators monitoring the men found out about the alleged purchase of the fertilizer, they intervened before delivery, switching the potentially deadly material with a harmless substance.
Jacobs advised vigilance in seeing what comes out in court about how far police went. He said that the courts have been drawing a line past which law enforcement officers can’t go without being seen as having induced the commission of a criminal offence.

He found it interesting that police referred to the 1995 Oklahoma City bombing where 168 people died in an explosion at a federal building. He said that if, for example, police arranged for delivery of the ammonium nitrate, it would shed a different light on proceedings.
“In Oklahoma City, there was no suggestion police were involved,” said Jacobs, adding that there are a number of important unanswered questions in the investigation.

Jacobs also criticized police for linking the suspects to Al Qaeda, the terrorist group responsible for the 9/11 attacks, without providing evidence. Police said that cell members were “inspired” by Al Qaeda.
Fox chuckled at the way evidence was presented, notably the use of similar bags of ammonium nitrate, not the actual evidence.
Watching it on TV, he said, he had the sense of reading an old crime pulp magazine from the '50s, with lines like: “At a location similar to the one pictured above, the following events took place …”
“Was there a police infiltrator?” asked Fox. “Did a spouse talk to police or did someone arrested on more minor charges give information to police? We don’t know what kind of a police operation it was. Everybody thinks that it’s like on TV, but everything is far more complicated.”

Michael Edmunds, administrator of the U of T’s McLuhan Program in Culture & Technology, argues the public is already so influenced by television that people are receptive to the kind of message sent out by police on the weekend.
Unconsciously, receptive audiences for police actions are created by such TV shows as the Fox hit* 24*, starring Kiefer Sutherland as counter-terrorist agent Jack Bauer. Viewers sympathize with Bauer, no matter what he has to do, because they want him to get the bad guys and protect the free world.
Edmunds argued that certain memes — or unspoken beliefs in any culture — are constantly being reinforced. Here, he said, the message was that police know what they are doing and they are protecting us.
“It’s all global theatre, as Marshall McLuhan used to say. We assume the police want to help us and we assume it’s good.”

The interesting aspect of the weekend for him was yesterday’s front-page play of the story in the New York Times. “Now we know what the police did was good,” he said. “It’s vindication when our brothers and sisters in the United States see it, too.”
And perhaps therein lies another audience for the images of the weekend: the American public, or more precisely, official Washington, both the White House and Capitol Hill.

The Times story pointed out that Bush administration officials were kept abreast of the police investigation and arrests, adding that Canadian Public Safety Minister Stockwell Day spoke early Saturday with his U.S. counterpart, Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff.

The Oklahoma City reference would surely resonate with Americans. The 1995 tragedy — the first domestic terrorist action in recent history — shocked a nation. It was exceedingly difficult for Americans to come to grips with the fact that domestic terrorists were involved, and not foreigners.
The trial of Timothy McVeigh, who was executed for the crime, was held under massive security, a preview perhaps of what Canadians can expect in the trial of the O-Sage 17.

“They are putting on a good spectacle, a show,” U.S. security expert John Pike said in a telephone interview from Virginia yesterday about the Canadian police show of force. “We are used to that here.”
Pike said the kind of massive security force employed in U.S. trials, while clearly reinforced in the aftermath of 9/11, is not a product simply of the World Trade Center and Pentagon attacks on 9/11.

“There has been an inexorable militarization of the police in the United States since the 1980s,” he said, citing a gradual weakening of human rights groups that began a decade earlier. “But there has been a substantial ratcheting up of security since 9/11.”

Problem is, said Pike, that police and prosecutors “make a big deal of what they’ve got, but as trials progress, we’ve repeatedly seen that the prosecution’s case falls apart because they simply don’t have the evidence.”
According to Pike, the key to the Canadian case will be the three tonnes of ammonium nitrate with which the 17 suspects supposedly plotted to set off a bomb in southern Ontario.

Re: “17 Terror Arrests in Toronto”

I was attacked by a bunch of hillbilly rednecks by my university campus when the gulf war was going on. idiots are everywhere, whether its the type who just need a little excuse here to go blow out windows of a local mosque or shoot some 7-11 clerk, or tthe types who killed others in the ethnic fights in pakistan in the 80s.

Re: “17 Terror Arrests in Toronto”

I thought I understood what was being asked and therefore went to the ultimate answer.

When it really comes down to it, if Allah wills that I die in a terror attack, like it or not, I shall. And no amount of law enforcement, watch group activity or private security surveillance will prevent it.

Practically speaking, yes, I will go to these authorities for protection. And when I do, I will not prevent them from investigating my fellow Muslims by crying racism. When these agencies attempt to “catch” individuals involved in illicit activity by baiting them, I will not cry entrapment.

Re: "17 Terror Arrests in Toronto"

Schoolkids to suspects
Trio underwent swift transformation from popular kids to devout, depressed
Jun. 5, 2006. 01:47 PM
MICHELLE SHEPHARD AND ISABEL TEOTONIO
STAFF REPORTERS

They were the popular kids, outspoken, always getting the laughs and experiencing all the regular teenage angst.
At Mississauga's Meadowvale Secondary School, Saad Khalid, Fahim Ahmad and Zakaria Amara — Zak, to his Grade 9 pals — were close friends and though they were observant Muslims, back in 2001 they spoke mainly of girls rather than Islam.

As the four high school years passed, the three friends began to change. They became more serious, at times depressed, devout in their faith. Khalid created R.A.C., the "Religious Awareness Club," where he'd preach Islam during lunch hours in the school's drama room.
But there were still glimpses of the goofiness for which they were known. In a 2005 video made by Khalid and other friends, he spoofed the stylized Bollywood films. Khalid donned a hijab for his role as a forlorn lover and in one scene is shown running in slow motion across a field with his arms outstretched.

The movie starring 19-year-old Khalid is a jarring contrast to the images now of the three friends in prison suits, alleged by police to be members of a homegrown terrorist cell.
In a series of raids Friday night and Saturday morning, led by the RCMP's anti-terrorism task force, 17 suspects were arrested — five under the age of 18 who cannot be identified in accordance with Canadian law.
Most of the suspects are in their late teens or early 20s but the eldest two are 30 and 43. The unidentified youths attended the same Scarborough high school and allegedly knew one of the adult suspects, 19-year-old Amin Mohamed Durrani, but other details that may reveal the identities of the youths cannot be published.

The suspects come from a variety of ethnic backgrounds and the majority are Canadian citizens.

It's only the second time in Canada since the Criminal Code was amended in 2001 to include terrorism offences that charges have been laid for terrorism, and the first time that police have made arrests to stop what they allege was an impending attack on Canadian soil.
The arrests are part of a continuing, multi-national probe into suspected terrorist cells in at least seven countries, a U.S. counter-terrorism official told the Los Angeles Times.

The senior U.S. law enforcement official said authorities are combing through evidence seized during the raids to look for possible connections between the 17 suspects and at least 18 other Islamic militants who have been arrested in locations including the United States, Bangladesh, Bosnia, Britain, Denmark and Sweden.

The RCMP will say little about the case or the suspects but through sources in the Muslim community, government, police and security services, most speaking to the *Star *on condition of anonymity, a picture is emerging of just who these 17 are, how they're connected, and what led to the investigation.
While the arrests took Canadians by surprise, the investigation into the group began in 2004 when Canada's spy service noted the fundamentalist views espoused by local youths on various Internet sites, sources said.
The arrests were brought on by the group's alleged purchase of three tonnes of ammonium nitrate, a massive amount of fertilizer that can be used to make bombs, such as the one that killed 168 people in Oklahoma City in the 1995 attack by Timothy McVeigh.

But the Star has learned that what the group actually acquired was not ammonium nitrate, since investigators monitoring the men learned of the alleged purchase of the fertilizer and intervened before the delivery, switching the potentially deadly material with a harmless substance. After the deal with the decoy was completed, 400 officers from across the province moved in for the arrests.

It's not yet known which members of the group are accused of being involved with the purchase of the material and the RCMP has not revealed what specific charges each suspect is facing. That's expected to be listed in a Brampton court tomorrow when the suspects appear for their bail hearings.
Family members and lawyers of the accused say they're eager to hear what details police will produce, pointing to past investigations in Canada where the evidence hasn't supported the initial claims.
Sources say evidence will show the youths travelled north to a "training camp," where they wore fatigues and made a video imitating warfare, conjuring images of the propaganda videos taped by Al Qaeda at the now-destroyed camps in Afghanistan before 9/11.
At a news conference Saturday, the RCMP displayed some of the seized items allegedly found at the camp such as a pockmarked door police said was used for shooting practice.
But those close to the accused wonder if this was not simply an overreaction by authorities and the trip north nothing more than teenagers dressing up and playing paintball.

Those who knew some the suspects in the various communities where they lived, say there's no doubt there were noticeable differences in their personalities in the last two years. They became activists for the plight of Muslims worldwide and allegedly felt Muslims were being targeted unfairly in Canada.
Much of that anger, according to sources close to the investigation, was allegedly directed at the Canadian Security Intelligence Service and the group listed the Toronto headquarters of CSIS, adjacent to the CN Tower, as one of its targets.

Many of the suspects were not devout Muslims when they were younger but later were drawn to the strict interpretation of Islam, known as Wahhabism, which is widely practised in Saudi Arabia but also has a strong following worldwide, including in Canada.

Khalid could talk of little else by the time he graduated, former classmates said. As his classmates thanked their parents, reflected about the "ups and downs" of high school life and wondered "where the four years went," in their yearbook comments, Khalid began his with an Islamic creed that Allah is the only one worthy of worship.
"(D)o you really believe in it? You do? Then prove it," he wrote.
"Before us there were many ... after us there will be none ... we are the ones ... Allahu Akbar."

By 2005, he had also become depressed. Those who knew him attributed the change to his mother's death in an accident the year before and the fact a girlfriend broke up with him.

Ahmad and Amara transferred after Grade 10 from Meadowvale to another Mississauga high school where friends say they became reclusive.
In 2005, Ahmad allegedly rented a car for two of the other suspects in the group arrested Friday night — Ali Dirie and Yasin Mohamed.

On Aug. 13, the pair was arrested at the Peace Bridge in Fort Erie as they tried to smuggle guns and ammunition from the United States. Since authorities were already watching Ahmad, when he allegedly rented the car a flag was put on the licence plate so it would be searched upon its return to Canada.
Dirie and Mohamed both pleaded guilty last October and received two-year sentences. They were charged with the new terrorism offences in the Kingston-area penitentiary where they are serving their time.

Ahmad was not charged in the incident. When the *Star *interviewed him earlier this year he declined to comment on the car rental, saying he told everything that needed to be said to police.

At the end of high school Amara married a classmate named Nada Farooq. They now have an 8-month-old daughter and the pair attended university — Amara at Ryerson and Farooq at the University of Toronto, a former classmate says. Amara also worked part-time at a gas station and the couple was struggling financially.

Also charged this weekend was Amara's brother-in-law, Ahmad Mustafa Ghany, who married Farooq's sister.
Ahmad, like Khalid and Amara, often prayed at an Islamic centre near their Meadowvale high school. But sometime in 2005, they met 43-year-old Qayyum Abdul Jamal and also began praying and attending classes at the Ar-Rahman Islamic Centre in Mississauga.

Immigrant families who wanted a place to meet for prayer service and where their children could learn the Qur'an set up the centre in 1999.
Since the beginning, the centre has struggled financially and was never able to hire a full-time imam or academic scholar. So, directors relied on volunteers to run and operate the centre — Jamal was one of them.
Jamal, the eldest member of the group now charged, has been a key fixture at the centre since 1999, working as a caretaker who had enough free time to go and open the doors for several daily prayer sessions. An immigrant from Karachi, Pakistan, Jamal is married to a Canadian woman who converted to Islam and has four sons.

Jamal would sometimes lead the prayers.
"(Jamal) was very popular among the children and young people" recalled one member who asked to remain anonymous. "He played basketball, went camping and went fishing with them. He would sit down and talk with them — he hung out with the youth crowd."
Although Jamal's radical Wahhabist and anti-Western views alarmed some of the centre's members, many of the older members never perceived him as a dangerous extremist.

"During the 2004 election we were trying to recruit people at the centre to get involved and (Jamal) was against it," recalled Faheem Bukhari, who used to attend the centre. "He tore down the flyers we had put up. For him, getting involved in political procedure or process was forbidden. He thought people should focus on Islam."

Although none of the elders ever thought Jamal was "recruiting" youth, some were concerned about his influence.
"They were concerned that the kids hanging around him would become isolated from society, wearing different dress, not associating with the average Joe on the street," recalled Bukhari. "I think they were more concerned with the social behaviour of the kids."

Re: "17 Terror Arrests in Toronto"

That's true. Idiots are everywhere. But this doesn't make anything easier. In fact, it made it a lot worse.

Re: "17 Terror Arrests in Toronto"

You would think that authorities would have enough sense to know what's right and what's not. It appears that many innocent people are being arrested as "terrorists"; while the actual terrorists roam free.

Re: "17 Terror Arrests in Toronto"

Going by recent history, most of these arrests made in Europe or Canada for that matter would ultimately prove to be based on ficticious charges, racial profiling or simple try and find a poor scapegoat. Hundreds were arrested post 9/11 with plenty of media razmattaz, sadly at the expense of the arrested whose lives were destroyed for no good reason.

Having said that, would anyone care to compare arrests of innocents in Canada to the decapitations/murders of alleged western spies in Wazirastan? Scores of civilians who allegedly chose to oppose the extremists in Fata/Frontier have been brutally murdered by the fanatical Al Qaeda/Taliban supporters. Two wrongs do not make a right, but we ALL should have the moral courage to condemn evil as it exists without making exceptions or setting up mental blocks.

Re: “17 Terror Arrests in Toronto”

but people have already judge them as guilty, so let it be…

as long as you don’t have a muslim name and outlook, be carefull and you can reamin a free terrorists:k:

Re: “17 Terror Arrests in Toronto”

Prophet:saw: said that Islam began as something strange, and it will revert to being strange as it was in the beginning, so good tidings for the strangers

Islam is being introduced as a Terrorist religion - quite parallel to what Quresh did by spreading lies to the pilgrimage - It is now our duty to change the definition. Ball is in our court. This is an oppertunity provided by Allah:swt: and it’s about time that we make some changes within ourselves. Indeed, Allah:swt: is the Best of the planners.

Re: “17 Terror Arrests in Toronto”

agreed :k:

Re: "17 Terror Arrests in Toronto"

Its sick that Muslims have the guts to come on this forum and condemn other muslims guilty on lack of evidence. They try to bring in their "oh terrorism is against islam" "oh Allah is the judge blah blah" But forget to side with their muslims until proven guilty, and rather choose to side with kafirs.

Tells you alot about those types of "muslims".

Re: “17 Terror Arrests in Toronto”

maybe they are too afraid that kafirs will beat them, cause they live in their countries:confused:

Re: "17 Terror Arrests in Toronto"

^ Maybe..

I mean its sad. You think the Prophet pbuh existing in this time would have responded the same way?

Us muslims keep islam secondary in our lives, and give it the least priority, and when something like this happens, we act like scholars and the "best" muslims come forward to condemn these "terrorists".

Just 'cause the media said so.