16,000 Kashmiris Languishing in Indian Jails on Dubious Charges

[malhot]

Re: 16,000 Kashmiris Languishing in Indian Jails on Dubious Charges

Janab: you ignored to mention anything to this point:* If the USA went through a bitter civil war, and yet today is united and strong, I see no reason why India will not be the same in the near future.

Time is the best healer.*

Regarding Independence of a tiny part of Kashmir - you still have'nt given any compelling reasons to why all the players will accept this. Rheteric without substance.

[janab-e-ali]

No response to anything else, eh?

Janab: you ignored to mention anything to this point:* If the USA went through a bitter civil war, and yet today is united and strong, I see no reason why India will not be the same in the near future.*

First of all, the situation isn't analogous. The states that seceded during the Civil War had all, just a few decades earlier, freely and democratically *decided to join the Union *of their own volition...a right that Kashmir was never offered. Moreover, they were, for the most part, culturally homogeneous with the Northern states...and shared a common history.

The Kashmir conflict isn't a "civil war," nor will you ever hear it described as such...that implies that a formerly integral part of India is rebelling against the government. To this day, the world community does not officially recognize India or Pakistan's claim over Kashmir...it is, as it has always been, a "disputed territory." As such, your argument really holds no water...it would be more appropriate if you were trying to justify Pakistan suppressing the Bengali rebels in '71 (in an actual civil war) and forcing E. Pakistan to stay in the union.

Regarding Independence of a tiny part of Kashmir

And again...we want independence for all of Kashmir. You just don't seem to be capable of comprehending what exactly Kashmir is.

No one in their right mind would deny that most Kashmiris want independence. All that leaves is India & Pakistan...and I've already addressed those issues above.

[vineshvk]

He was in jail from 1953-64 Then again from 1965-68 Then he was expelled from the state from 1971-73

ur maths doesnt add up and some of the periods are a bit exagerrated. Exagerration is a norm of kashmir seperatist movement anyway.

@janab-e-ali

Kargil happened a decade ago, and that too at a time when India-Pakistan relations were particularly tense. With 9-11, the War on Terror, and the subsequent fall-out in Pakistan, I think the government and the people have bigger issues on their minds.

No, kargil happened just after Vajpayee went to meet Nawas Sharif in Pakistan. Everything was going right at the peacefront when the military decided to end these peace nonsense.

@janab-e-ali

An independent Kashmir would bring an end to pissing contest that has plagued India & Pakistan for the past 60 years.

Sustainablity of independent kashmir is a question. Pakistanies wanted plebiscite to decide weather to join them or remain with India. Most of the kashmiri muslims bounght into this idea of muslim victimization under "Hindu" rule. Anything going wrong in Kashmir is attributed to a hindu rule. So far as that brothers turned against brothers during the late part of 1980s to drive away the hindu population out of the valley. Soon after people realized that joining a country with more problems would weaken them, they wanted independence. So that itself demonstrates the ficklness of Kashmiri independent movement.

@janab-e-ali

In any case, if I had to guess, I'd say that any independent Kashmiri state would be created through the intervention of the UN (ala Kosovo, East Timor, etc)...in which case I doubt that Pakistan would so overtly flaunt the will of the world community and take over (that seems to be more like India's style).

There is a UN presence in Kashmir who looks at the LOC.

@janab-e-ali

If that's honestly the case (only 25% of the population actually wants to stay in India), then that's a pretty pathetic country, and maybe balkanization wouldn't be the worst thing.

Fortunately for India, I think you're grossly exaggerating. If that were the case, you'd see the same level of infighting and civil war in India that you do in post-colonial Africa. In reality, the mainland Indian states (everything but J&K and the eastern hill states) have benefited from their involvement in the Indian union...and I sincerely doubt that a majority in any state wants independence.

Other than religious issue Kashmir does not have voice concerning seperation. What other issues does it have to demand seperate country. Can not a Kashmiri become the prime minister of India.

That's really not true. The demand to end foreign rule in Kashmir has been a very popular one since 1931.

@janab-e-ali

Which is why in 1956, you own freedom-figher (and advocate of Kashmiri self-determination) Jayaprakash Narayan said, "From all the information that I have, 95 per cent of Kashmiri Muslims do not wish to be, or remain, Indian citizens. I doubt, therefore, the wisdom of trying to ‘keep’ people by force where they do not wish to stay." Incidentally, he also mocked the idea that all of India would suddenly fall apart if we were given our independence.

It's also why, in March of 1990, a massive pro-independence protest in Srinagar was able to draw over 1 million people from all over Kashmir (or over 25% of the entire population of Kashmir...and about 85% of the adult male population).

This has always been a popular movement.

Popular movement is a debatable question. If a countrys creation precedes by driving away all its minorities outside their country then I wouldnt beleive it will have a long existance. A country based on religion will not survive as it is in this world for long.

[janab-e-ali]

ur maths doesnt add up and some of the periods are a bit exagerrated. Exagerration is a norm of kashmir seperatist movement anyway.

1973 - 1953 = 20 years. Therefore, he was in and out of jail for the better part of two decades.

The dates are accurate. Denial seems to be the norm among colonial powers (India included).

No, kargil happened just after Vajpayee went to meet Nawas Sharif in Pakistan. Everything was going right at the peacefront when the military decided to end these peace nonsense.

It also happened less than two years after the nuclear tests, when half the world was predicting a nuclear apocalypse in South Asia. Relations between the two countries weren't anything approaching "normal" till around 2004.

In any case, as I already pointed out, ground realities in Pakistan have changed significantly in the past decade.

Other than religious issue Kashmir does not have voice concerning seperation. What other issues does it have to demand seperate country. Can not a Kashmiri become the prime minister of India.

Foreign occupation is foreign occupation.

And if this is a religious movement, why are Indian Muslims overwhelmingly against us? This is, and always has been, a nationalistic issue.

Popular movement is a debatable question. If a countrys creation precedes by driving away all its minorities outside their country then I wouldnt beleive it will have a long existance. A country based on religion will not survive as it is in this world for long.

Both Israel and Pakistan were created on the basis of religion, and neither country is going to be collapsing anytime soon.

But that's besides the point. No popular group is pushing for the creation of an Islamic state in Kashmir, and the vast majority of Kashmiris want the Pandits to return. The Kashmir movement is a nationalist movement. 95% of Kashmiris happen to be Muslim...that doesn't make it an Islamist struggle, as much as you Indians may try to paint it as one.

As for the popularity of the movement...stick your head in the sand all you want. You own government knows full well that if Kashmiris were allowed to vote, they would leave India in a heartbeat. Otherwise they would have held the plebiscite 60 years ago and silenced the Pakistanis for good.

[Pundit_Vikram]

Re: 16,000 Kashmiris Languishing in Indian Jails on Dubious Charges

Hello everyone!

There is a 63 year old man in the corner house. He is fed up paying taxes. He wants to secede.

There is a family in the big house in the next street. They want to issue their own stamps because USA wouldn't issue one for their favorite hobby.

There is this corner where a bunch of post-teens congregate. They are mad that the cost of cigarettes keeps going up because of taxes. They want their own flag and country.

They all are looking for a mutual friend with Rev.Sharpton to mount a protest.

After reading the arguement here by Mr.Janab Ali, even Sharpton will not take that case.

Regards
Pundit Vikram

[teggy]

Re: 16,000 Kashmiris Languishing in Indian Jails on Dubious Charges

^Nice spin-tale and pun.

Janab brings up valid points and argues very well. I wish some Indian friends would genuinely debate with her on factual basis, and not propaganda.

I look forward to it. :)

PS: Great thread btw. :D

[vineshvk]

1973 - 1953 = 20 years. Therefore, he was in and out of jail for the better part of two decades.

The dates are accurate. Denial seems to be the norm among colonial powers (India included).

Terrorism thrives on propaganda. Deny it as long as u want.:)

@janab-e-ali

It also happened less than two years after the nuclear tests, when half the world was predicting a nuclear apocalypse in South Asia. Relations between the two countries weren't anything approaching "normal" till around 2004

In any case, as I already pointed out, ground realities in Pakistan have changed significantly in the past decade.

Nuclear test did not mean that India and Pakistan was about to go into war. It was first time after so many years that an Indian prime minister visited Pakistan. The relation was never better before.

@janab-e-ali

It also happened less than two years after the nuclear tests, when half the Foreign occupation is foreign occupation.

And if this is a religious movement, why are Indian Muslims overwhelmingly against us? This is, and always has been, a nationalistic issue.

Both Israel and Pakistan were created on the basis of religion, and neither country is going to be collapsing anytime soon.

Pakistans reason for a separate muslim land is defeated with the creation of Bangladesh. Isreal in its bloody existence have the big brother in its back to keep it afloat.

@janab-e-ali

But that's besides the point. No popular group is pushing for the creation of an Islamic state in Kashmir, and the vast majority of Kashmiris want the Pandits to return. The Kashmir movement is a nationalist movement. 95% of Kashmiris happen to be Muslim...that doesn't make it an Islamist struggle, as much as you Indians may try to paint it as one.

But the pandits dont want it, do they. Neither the budhist or the Sikhs. U didnt tell me what criteria other than religious that u consider Kashmir requiring a separate identity.

@janab-e-ali

As for the popularity of the movement...stick your head in the sand all you want. You own government knows full well that if Kashmiris were allowed to vote, they would leave India in a heartbeat. Otherwise they would have held the plebiscite 60 years ago and silenced the Pakistanis for good.

May be now independence is what u want. But two decade ago u wanted to be with Pakistan. So lets wait a bit longer before you can make up ur mind.

[malhot]

Re: 16,000 Kashmiris Languishing in Indian Jails on Dubious Charges

I think it might be interesting to know how many Pakistani's really want Kashmir to be independent.

Janab seems to think Pakistani's would have no objection. Well guy's what do you really think Pakistani's want.

[janab-e-ali]

@vineshvk

Terrorism thrives on propaganda. Deny it as long as u want.

“In effect, the consequences of the alliance in 1987 were even worse than the act of keeping Sheikh Abdullah in jail for most of the time between 1953 and the early 1970’s”
“Kashmir in Comparative Perspective” - Sten Widmalm

“In February 1975, exhausted by over two decades in jail, Sheikh Abdullah re-emerged on Jammu and Kashmir’s political terrain.”](http://www.hinduonnet.com/fline/fl1714/17140040.htm)

“Demands that led to Sheikh Abdullah spending two decades in jail.”](http://www.india-today.com/itoday/20000710/cover.html)

The last two quotes are from mainstream Indian magazines, from articles written by Hindus. Either you’re in denial, or you don’t know what you’re talking about.

@vineshvk

Nuclear test did not mean that India and Pakistan was about to go into war. It was first time after so many years that an Indian prime minister visited Pakistan. The relation was never better before.

As much as I disagree with that characterization, you’re completely ignoring the main point. Realities have changed in Pakistan…frankly, the country has more than enough problems to deal with on its own soil to be worrying about Kashmir (when was the last time you heard a Pakistani leader describing Kashmir as “shahrag-e-Pakistan?” Musharraf’s much touted “four point plan” involves Kashmir remaining under Indian administration. And in any case, if the UN were to step in and create an independent Kashmir, Pakistan wouldn’t go against world opinion like that.

@vineshvk

Pakistans reason for a separate muslim land is defeated with the creation of Bangladesh. Isreal in its bloody existence have the big brother in its back to keep it afloat.

India’s dismembering of the original, impractical set-up of Pakistan doesn’t undermine its existence as a nation.

In any case, this discussion is irrelevant, as the Kashmir movement isn’t a religious one.

@vineshvk

But the pandits dont want it, do they. Neither the budhist or the Sikhs.

First of all, a number of Pandits do support the independence movement…one of the leaders of the APHC, Bhushan Bazaz, is a Pandit. The late HN Wanchoo also comes to mind…he was killed by Indian security forces back in the 1992 for reporting Indian human rights violations in Kashmir…today his son is involved with the JKLF.

Nor do I think the involvement of Pandits changes the inherently nationalistic nature of the Kashmir movement. Back in the 1940’s, some of the most prominent pro-Pakistan activists were left wing Pandit leaders…does that make the Pakistan movement any less “Muslim?”

@vineshvk

U didnt tell me what criteria other than religious that u consider Kashmir requiring a separate identity.

Let’s see…we’re ethnically, culturally, and linguistically more similar to Central Asia than India. We have a distinct history, mostly separate from India’s…which has lead to the formation of a distinct national identity. Oh, and there’s also the issue of our wildly unpopular, illegal occupation by India (which no other Indian state can claim)…followed by decades of political and social oppression.

India should go and militarily occupy Bhutan…brutally suppress any opposition…and amend its constitution to declare that Bhutan is an “atoot ang”/“intergral part” of India. Then, when the Bhutanese people demand independence, the government should just repeat “Bhutan is an integral part of India” ad nauseum…and insist that only Buddhist extremist militants want independence…while demanding to know on what criterion, other than religion, the Bhutanese can claim a separate identity.

@vineshvk

May be now independence is what u want. But two decade ago u wanted to be with Pakistan. So lets wait a bit longer before you can make up ur mind.

Perhaps most of Jammu & Kashmir was in favor of joining Pakistan back in the 1940-50’s.

But the Kashmir movement was as much about azaadi back in 1989 as it is today.

[Moonshiner]

Janab brings up valid points and argues very well. I wish some Indian friends would genuinely debate with her on factual basis, and not propaganda.

Yes, Janab does very well and she has defeated her Indian counterparts quite effectively. The defeat of the Indians "debating" here was due to their insulting and rude posts and their irrelevelant questioning on Janab's ethnicity.

[vineshvk]

@janab-e-ali

“In effect, the consequences of the alliance in 1987 were even worse than the act of keeping Sheikh Abdullah in jail for most of the time between 1953 and the early 1970’s”
“Kashmir in Comparative Perspective” - Sten Widmalm

“In February 1975, exhausted by over two decades in jail, Sheikh Abdullah re-emerged on Jammu and Kashmir’s political terrain.”](http://www.hinduonnet.com/fline/fl1714/17140040.htm)

“Demands that led to Sheikh Abdullah spending two decades in jail.”](http://www.india-today.com/itoday/20000710/cover.html)

The last two quotes are from mainstream Indian magazines, from articles written by Hindus. Either you’re in denial, or you don’t know what you’re talking about.

Why are u justifying ur mistake with somebody else. Is he in prison for 20 years or not. This is the question.

@janab-e-ali

As much as I disagree with that characterization, you’re completely ignoring the main point. Realities have changed in Pakistan…frankly, the country has more than enough problems to deal with on its own soil to be worrying about Kashmir (when was the last time you heard a Pakistani leader describing Kashmir as “shahrag-e-Pakistan?” Musharraf’s much touted “four point plan” involves Kashmir remaining under Indian administration. And in any case, if the UN were to step in and create an independent Kashmir, Pakistan wouldn’t go against world opinion like that.

@janab-e-ali

India’s dismembering of the original, impractical set-up of Pakistan doesn’t undermine its existence as a nation.

Baseless argument. The fact that Bangladesh ceded with or without Indian support is hole in two nation theory based on only religion. The fact also that more than 100 million muslims still reside in India is also case against two nation theory based on religion.

@janab-e-ali

In any case, this discussion is irrelevant, as the Kashmir movement isn’t a religious one.

First of all, a number of Pandits do support the independence movement…one of the leaders of the APHC, Bhushan Bazaz, is a Pandit. The late HN Wanchoo also comes to mind…he was killed by Indian security forces back in the 1992 for reporting Indian human rights violations in Kashmir…today his son is involved with the JKLF.

Nor do I think the involvement of Pandits changes the inherently nationalistic nature of the Kashmir movement. Back in the 1940’s, some of the most prominent pro-Pakistan activists were left wing Pandit leaders…does that make the Pakistan movement any less “Muslim?”

U can count them in fingures can u. Then India can count a few million muslims kashmiris who want to be part of India. Does that count.

@janab-e-ali

Let’s see…we’re ethnically, culturally, and linguistically more similar to Central Asia than India. We have a distinct history, mostly separate from India’s…which has lead to the formation of a distinct national identity. Oh, and there’s also the issue of our wildly unpopular, illegal occupation by India (which no other Indian state can claim)…followed by decades of political and social oppression.

India should go and militarily occupy Bhutan…brutally suppress any opposition…and amend its constitution to declare that Bhutan is an “atoot ang”/“intergral part” of India. Then, when the Bhutanese people demand independence, the government should just repeat “Bhutan is an integral part of India” ad nauseum…and insist that only Buddhist extremist militants want independence…while demanding to know on what criterion, other than religion, the Bhutanese can claim a separate identity.

Perhaps most of Jammu & Kashmir was in favor of joining Pakistan back in the 1940-50’s.

But the Kashmir movement was as much about azaadi back in 1989 as it is today.

You are not ethnically culturally and linguistically different from any ethnically, culturally , linguistically divergent people living as Indians in India. Who are the people u consider Indian.
Most of the state in India has more or less culturally different and some times religiously and ethnically different as well.
U take away religion from ur equation there is nothing you would fight for.
Coming to your funny example of Bhutan. Kashmir could have been as good as Bhutan, if Pakistan did not get involved into this. The whole equation changed after Pakistans involvement. The fact that we are discussing all this in a pakistani forum is a point that Kashmir is an issue which always have some Pakistani connection.

[Moonshiner]

@vineshvk

You are not ethnically culturally and linguistically different

Have you met Janab to make such a conclusion?

If not, then this argument is baseless

[quote]
U take away religion from ur equation there is nothing you would fight for.

[/quote]

Again, have you met Janab to make such a conclusion? I'm sure Janab has plenty to fight for, and you just hate that, don't you?

[janab-e-ali]

@vineshvk

Why are u justifying ur mistake with somebody else. Is he in prison for 20 years or not. This is the question.

Wow...can't even accept your mistake when the evidence is put right in front of you.

@vineshvk

U can count them in fingures can u. Then India can count a few million muslims kashmiris who want to be part of India. Does that count.

There are a grand total of 5 million Kashmirs in all of Kashmir...in what alternate reality do you live where "a few million" want to stay in India? Never mind the fact that 80-90% choose independence in every survey...never mind the fact that a pro-independence protest was able to draw 25% of the entire population...you people will still make laughable claims about what we want.

@vineshvk

You are not ethnically culturally and linguistically different from any ethnically, culturally , linguistically divergent people living as Indians in India. Who are the people u consider Indian.

It's clear you know nothing about Kashmiri culture.

@vineshvk

U take away religion from ur equation there is nothing you would fight for.

Like I said...foreign occupation is foreign occupation. And the subsequent decades of political and social repression didn't do much to help India's image in Kashmir either.

You can try and undermine our identity all you want...the fact remains that India has always been, and will continue to be seen as a foreign state in Kashmir.

@vineshvk

Coming to your funny example of Bhutan. Kashmir could have been as good as Bhutan, if Pakistan did not get involved into this.

Yet another issue that Indians seem incapable of understanding.

I'm assuming by that ridiculous statement, you mean that India would have let the Dogra maharajas continue lording over the Kashmiri people.

Let's just ignore the fact that, in all likelihood, India would have eventually "operation polo-ed" J&K even if the Pathans hadn't invaded. For the last time...Kashmir was by no stretch of the imagination "independent" during Dogra raj. Only an Indian would think that oppressive, foreign, autocratic rule somehow constitutes "independence." The Kashmir movement began as an effort to expel the Dogras from Kashmir...and lives on today to expel their equally oppressive successors.

[vineshvk]

@janab-e-ali

Wow...can't even accept your mistake when the evidence is put right in front of you.

Even the numbers u gave dont add up to 20. I hope I added correctly.:)

@janab-e-ali

There are a grand total of 5 million Kashmirs in all of Kashmir...in what alternate reality do you live where "a few million" want to stay in India? Never mind the fact that 80-90% choose independence in every survey...never mind the fact that a pro-independence protest was able to draw 25% of the entire population...you people will still make laughable claims about what we want.

I am sorry, I did not know u were only talking about the valley. Ok even there I would assume that a more than few thousand muslims still prefer joining India ( significantly more than the number of Kashmiri hindus u talk about). The point is that the driving force behind Kashmirs independence stems from religious point of view than any ethnic issue. If not then the hindu population of Kashmir would have supported ur cause. Ur links in the previous post of urs do say how the Kashmiri pandits are taking to the streets against a complete autonomy resolution passed by the Farooq govt.

@janab-e-ali

It's clear you know nothing about Kashmiri culture.

I dont and I dont pretend to know either. But I know very well my culture and ethnicity and how it is different from other part of India.

@janab-e-ali

Like I said...foreign occupation is foreign occupation.

Again its ur personal view.

@janab-e-ali

And the subsequent decades of political and social repression didn't do much to help India's image in Kashmir either.

Agreed to some extent. India could have handled it better. I had already said that before.

@janab-e-ali

You can try and undermine our identity all you want...the fact remains that India has always been, and will continue to be seen as a foreign state in Kashmir.

I am not. what I am asking you is how u r different from the different people co-existing in India and if they can do that then why not ur people.

@janab-e-ali

Yet another issue that Indians seem incapable of understanding.

I'm assuming by that ridiculous statement, you mean that India would have let the Dogra maharajas continue lording over the Kashmiri people.

Ur assumption is ridiculous then. U could have left dogra to rule or sheikh abdullah to rule. That was ur choice. Its was the choice of the people of Bhutan weather they wanted the king to rule or not.

@janab-e-ali

Let's just ignore the fact that, in all likelihood, India would have eventually "operation polo-ed" J&K even if the Pathans hadn't invaded. For the last time...Kashmir was by no stretch of the imagination "independent" during Dogra raj. Only an Indian would think that oppressive, foreign, autocratic rule somehow constitutes "independence." The Kashmir movement began as an effort to expel the Dogras from Kashmir...and lives on today to expel their equally oppressive successors.

Again wrong assumptions. This has nothing to do with Dogra raj. U could have thrown out the dogra for all I know. U wouldnt have even time to throw out the Dogra because u would have been under the Pathans by then if India did not intervene. May be another Afghanistan in the making.

[vineshvk]

@Moonshiner

Have you met Janab to make such a conclusion?

If not, then this argument is baseless

Again, have you met Janab to make such a conclusion? I'm sure Janab has plenty to fight for, and you just hate that, don't you?

U there means Kashmiri people. Because he pretend to say for all kashmiris. :).
I dont hate anybody. I want peace to prevail. Fighting a religious war is not for peace.

[janab-e-ali]

@vineshvk

Even the numbers u gave dont add up to 20. I hope I added correctly.:)

1973-1953 = 20 years.

Like I said, he was in jail/exile/house arrest for most of that twenty year period.

@vineshvk

Ok even there I would assume that a more than few thousand muslims still prefer joining India ( significantly more than the number of Kashmiri hindus u talk about).

Sure...but by all accounts, they're a small minority of the population.

@vineshvk

The point is that the driving force behind Kashmirs independence stems from religious point of view than any ethnic issue. If not then the hindu population of Kashmir would have supported ur cause. Ur links in the previous post of urs do say how the Kashmiri pandits are taking to the streets against a complete autonomy resolution passed by the Farooq govt.

The Pandits benefited from Indian rule (every imperialist power has its local agents)...as did a handful of Kashmiri Muslims...and so they support its continuation. The remaining 80-90% of us don't.

By the late 1930's/early 40's, based on election results, the Congress Party had virtually no support among Indian Muslims...even in the areas that went on to become India. Does that mean that Congress was a Hindu movement rather than a nationalist one?

@vineshvk

I dont and I dont pretend to know either. But I know very well my culture and ethnicity and how it is different from other part of India.

I am not. what I am asking you is how u r different from the different people co-existing in India and if they can do that then why not ur people.

1. Your people were not forced to join India against their will (whoever they are).

2. Our culture is not "Indic."

3. If you & your people are willing to sacrifice your identity for the sake of being homogenized into the post-colonial hodgepodge that is India, then more power to you. We Kashmiris have no desire to...nor will we allow anyone to compel us to do so.

@vineshvk

Ur assumption is ridiculous then. U could have left dogra to rule or sheikh abdullah to rule. That was ur choice. Its was the choice of the people of Bhutan weather they wanted the king to rule or not.

Again wrong assumptions. This has nothing to do with Dogra raj. U could have thrown out the dogra for all I know. U wouldnt have even time to throw out the Dogra because u would have been under the Pathans by then if India did not intervene.

Oh please...benevolent India stepped in and illegally occupied Kashmir to save us from illegal occupation. Spare me.

@vineshvk

May be another Afghanistan in the making.

Because that's what happened to the areas that rebelled and joined Pakistan.

[Moonshiner]

@vineshvk

U there means Kashmiri people. Because he pretend to say for all kashmiris. :).

Your English is weak and pathetic.

English lessons would help.

[quote]

I dont hate anybody.

[/quote]

Your posts reflect otherwise.

[vineshvk]

@Moonshiner

Your English is weak and pathetic.

English lessons would help.

Thats all u have. This is not an English debating competition.

[vineshvk]

@janab-e-ali

1973-1953 = 20 years.

Like I said, he was in jail/exile/house arrest for most of that twenty year period.

My english is bad, but not my maths. Go back and read, u have given duration of his jailing. That doesn't add up to 20.

@janab-e-ali

The Pandits benefited from Indian rule (every imperialist power has its local agents)...as did a handful of Kashmiri Muslims...and so they support its continuation. The remaining 80-90% of us don't.

By the late 1930's/early 40's, based on election results, the Congress Party had virtually no support among Indian Muslims...even in the areas that went on to become India. Does that mean that Congress was a Hindu movement rather than a nationalist one?

Did the congress asked for the division of state on religious lines. Congress won 7 out of 11 provinces. With muslim league gaining only around 5% polled votes.

@janab-e-ali

1. Your people were not forced to join India against their will (whoever they are).

1. Our culture is not "Indic."

2. If you & your people are willing to sacrifice your identity for the sake of being homogenized into the post-colonial hodgepodge that is India, then more power to you. We Kashmiris have no desire to...nor will we allow anyone to compel us to do so.

1.none of our forefathers were given the choice. Mostly, kings decided for us.
2. What is Indic?
3. Yes of course !!!! Those who joined the union and helped in maintaining the union should have lost its identity. Is that so? Great!! Where in India there is homogenization?Sometimes I wonder, you guys get stuck up in the valley and never come out of it.

@janab-e-ali

Oh please...benevolent India stepped in and illegally occupied Kashmir to save us from illegal occupation. Spare me.

Whatever u think, but thats what happened. Because u were not able to save your self.
Were your people able to resist the Pathans. What happened to the great Kashmiri fighting spirit.

[mufakkar]

@vineshvk

Whatever u think, but thats what happened. Because u were not able to save your self. Were your people able to resist the Pathans. What happened to the great Kashmiri fighting spirit.

**********************************. How did the pathans come into this discussion? Are the Kashmiris or they been asking to be saved from the Pathans or are they asking to be free of the Indians?