16,000 Kashmiris Languishing in Indian Jails on Dubious Charges

[janab-e-ali]

Re: 16,000 Kashmiris Languishing in Indian Jails on Dubious Charges

@vineshvk

its ur view my friend, but hardly any substance in ur rants. Ur parroting the same old stories and nothing new. Its the will of the people, its the will of the people, thats all you have.

And as long as India doesn't give a damn about the will of the people, the people will want out.

@vineshvk

Its the will of the people in Gujarat to massacre Muslims, it was the will of the people in Germany to kill jews, it is the will of the people (janab) to separate and exterminate the pandits. So should we allow that.

Exterminate the Pandits?

According to the overwhelmingly pro-India police, a grand total of 209 Pandits have been killed in Kashmir since 1989...even if we double that figure, it comes out to less than 1% of the Indian government's official death toll for Kashmiri Muslims (43,000 at last count).

@vineshvk

Kashmir remained independent before Pathans attacked wasnt it.

You've just demonstrated how little you know about our history.

No, it wasn't independent. The Dogras weren't Kashmiri...and their rule was seen as foreign oppression. The Kashmir movement was born out of an effort to end Dogra rule over Kashmir.

@vineshvk

India would not have got involved if it was not for Pakistan.

Whatever. The fact that India refused to sign a standstill agreement with the maharaja just shows how "uninvolved" they were planning on being. Even if the Pathans hadn't invaded, they would have "Operation Poloed" the state in a few months anyways.

@hooda

my question to janab

wat would force indianarmy to withdraw from kashmir and the govt at delhi to declare that kashmir no longer belongs to india???

First of all, we don't "belong" to anyone. And if Kosovo and East Timor can be declared independent, so can Kashmir.

[vineshvk]

Re: 16,000 Kashmiris Languishing in Indian Jails on Dubious Charges

@janab-e-ali

And as long as India doesn't give a damn about the will of the people, the people will want out.

Again its ur will, unless proven otherwise u cant say its the peoples will!!!

@janab-e-ali

Exterminate the Pandits?

According to the overwhelmingly pro-India police, a grand total of 209 Pandits have been killed in Kashmir since 1989...even if we double that figure, it comes out to less than 1% of the Indian government's official death toll for Kashmiri Muslims (43,000 at last count).

So why did almost all Pandits were forced to leave kashmir. Today Omar Abdullah was saying that it is the responsibility of Kasmiris(muslims) to bring back all the Pandits to Kashmir again, because it was them who drove them away.

@janab-e-ali

You've just demonstrated how little you know about our history.

No, it wasn't independent. The Dogras weren't Kashmiri...and their rule was seen as foreign oppression. The Kashmir movement was born out of an effort to end Dogra rule over Kashmir.

If that is the case then as soon as King brought Kashmir to Indian union then the purpose is served.:)

@janab-e-ali

Whatever. The fact that India refused to sign a standstill agreement with the maharaja just shows how "uninvolved" they were planning on being. Even if the Pathans hadn't invaded, they would have "Operation Poloed" the state in a few months anyways.

Purely speculative. The fact remains that Pathans invaded. India did not ask them to do so. Did they?

@janab-e-ali

First of all, we don't "belong" to anyone. And if Kosovo and East Timor can be declared independent, so can Kashmir.

If northern Ireland can stay in British union then why not Kashmir with India.

[Pundit_Vikram]

Re: 16,000 Kashmiris Languishing in Indian Jails on Dubious Charges

Good for you. It's too bad that the vast majority of your compatriots disagree.

Hello!

I know for a fact that they do not disagree and think exactly the way I said. While Pakistan thinks of Kashmir as a prize to be won, Indians treat Kashmir not as a possession but as part of our mother land. That is why you can see how perturbed we all get when Pakistanis write comments such as you do about us.

Regards
Pundit Vikram

[janab-e-ali]

Re: 16,000 Kashmiris Languishing in Indian Jails on Dubious Charges

@Pundit_Vikram

That is why you can see how perturbed we all get when Pakistanis write comments such as you do about us.

I'm Kashmiri, not Pakistani. And I've witnessed the downright colonial attitudes of your countrymen firsthand...so spare me.

@vineshvk

Again its ur will, unless proven otherwise u cant say its the peoples will!!!

A 2007 survey (conducted by an Indian agency) found that 87% of Kashmiris want independence. The much touted 2002 MORI survey (funded by an Indian, conducted by an American research agency) found that only 9% of Kashmiris wanted Indian citizenship [13% wanted Pakistani citizenship, the remaining 78% didn't want either].

Not that this will silence you...I'm sure you can cook up some other excuse to parrot now.

@vineshvk

So why did almost all Pandits were forced to leave kashmir.

They left because they felt unsafe, and because the Indian government encouraged them to do so. Omar Abdullah's own father, the BJP-affiliated Farooq Abdullah has gone on record saying that Governor Jagmohan was behind the exodus.

In any case, the 209 figure comes from your own police forces, not some militant group.

@vineshvk

If northern Ireland can stay in British union then why not Kashmir with India.

By most indications, a majority of people in Northern Ireland (around 60% or so) support remaining in the UK, which is hardly the case in Kashmir.

[vineshvk]

Re: 16,000 Kashmiris Languishing in Indian Jails on Dubious Charges

@janab-e-ali

I'm Kashmiri, not Pakistani. And I've witnessed the downright colonial attitudes of your countrymen firsthand...so spare me.

So we have to believe that, dont we?

@janab-e-ali

A 2007 survey (conducted by an Indian agency) found that 87% of Kashmiris want independence. The much touted 2002 MORI survey (funded by an Indian, conducted by an American research agency) found that only 9% of Kashmiris wanted Indian citizenship [13% wanted Pakistani citizenship, the remaining 78% didn't want either].

Which part of Kashmir, POK or Indian Kashmir. there was 48% of polling reported from Jammu and Kashmir election. This is normally a good turnout. So I have to believe that at least half the people wanted to be with India.

So I quote u "
Not that this will silence you...I'm sure you can cook up some other excuse to parrot now."

@janab-e-ali

They left because they felt unsafe, and because the Indian government encouraged them to do so. Omar Abdullah's own father, the BJP-affiliated Farooq Abdullah has gone on record saying that Governor Jagmohan was behind the exodus.

In any case, the 209 figure comes from your own police forces, not some militant group.

Why would Indian government encourage them to do that. They would have encouraged them to have more children or populate the valley with Indians from other states. Why would they want to drive the Pandits out.

@janab-e-ali

By most indications, a majority of people in Northern Ireland (around 60% or so) support remaining in the UK, which is hardly the case in Kashmir.

hearsay again.!!!!

[Pundit_Vikram]

Re: 16,000 Kashmiris Languishing in Indian Jails on Dubious Charges

@janab-e-ali

I'm Kashmiri, not Pakistani. And I've witnessed the downright colonial attitudes of your countrymen firsthand...so spare me.

Hello Janab Ali,

That surprises me. I have read a number of your posts not only in this but other parts of this site also and based on that concluded that you are a hard core Pakistani fighting to wrest Kashmir from us!

As to your first hand experiences of Indians (of which you are one too, if you are really Kashmiri!) we can all claim whatever we want in a website. But actions speak much louder. In this case, the actions I am referring to are the numerous in-depth posts you have made about Pakistani matters in several threads which tell me as well as any other reasonable person that you are a Pakistani at heart, if not in reality. Therefore, excuse me, but I cannot consider your opinions about India, especially Kashmir, as anything other than what Pakistan has been claiming for decades.

Regards
Pundit Vikram

[janab-e-ali]

Re: 16,000 Kashmiris Languishing in Indian Jails on Dubious Charges

@vineshvk

Which part of Kashmir, POK or Indian Kashmir.

There is only one Kashmir, 100% of which is unfortunately under Indian occupation. The areas Pakistan controls are parts of Jammu and Ladakh-Baltistan.

The figures on the demand for independence are from Indian-occupied Kashmir.

@vineshvk

there was 48% of polling reported from Jammu and Kashmir election. This is normally a good turnout. So I have to believe that at least half the people wanted to be with India.

I could care less about trends in Jammu and Ladakh. In the last election, voter-turnout in the Kashmir region was around 15%. Moreover, your assumption it baseless. Making the best of a bad situation and voting isn’t tantamount to saying being a part of India is your ideal.

@vineshvk

Why would Indian government encourage them to do that. They would have encouraged them to have more children or populate the valley with Indians from other states. Why would they want to drive the Pandits out.

1. After safely clearing out the only people whose wellbeing they were actually concerned with, the Indian government was able to give its 700,000 armed barbarians free reign to murder, rape, and pillage as they saw fit…without fear of killing any Hindus in the crossfire.

2. Dumping a couple thousand Pandits in shantytowns and refugee camps for 20 years was an excellent PR move for the Indian government too…the government can publicly shed a few crocodile tears over their plight, and use it as justification for the genocide in Kashmir.

@vineshvk

hearsay again.!!!

NI Life and Times Survey - ~year: NIRELAND

Just so you know…the British also already held a plebiscite in Northern Ireland back in 1973. Nearly 99% of voters opted to remain in the UK.

@Pundit_Vikram

That surprises me. I have read a number of your posts not only in this but other parts of this site also and based on that concluded that you are a hard core Pakistani fighting to wrest Kashmir from us!

As to your first hand experiences of Indians (of which you are one too, if you are really Kashmiri!) we can all claim whatever we want in a website. But actions speak much louder. In this case, the actions I am referring to are the numerous in-depth posts you have made about Pakistani matters in several threads which tell me as well as any other reasonable person that you are a Pakistani at heart, if not in reality. Therefore, excuse me, but I cannot consider your opinions about India, especially Kashmir, as anything other than what Pakistan has been claiming for decades.

You Indians are honestly all the same…making the same inane accusation once you run out of substantive arguments. Whatever…your foolish accusations hardly change reality. Rest assured, the vast majority of Kashmir doesn’t think too highly of your country either…nor do they identify as Indians. Six decades of occupation haven’t changed the fact that when someone comes to Kashmir from Delhi or Mumbai, they’re still referred to as ‘having come from India.’

[Pundit_Vikram]

Re: 16,000 Kashmiris Languishing in Indian Jails on Dubious Charges

Hello Janab Ali,

It is ironic that you are driven to rolling on the floor when I point out the fallacy of your claiming to be Kashmiri but not Indian while at the same time in action, proving to be a hard core Pakistani. And the only response you have is that 'we Indians are all the same'.

It is quite sad that some people will even lie about their identity like this! I would normally call it dishonesty but accounting for possible brainwshing (which has happened to some Kashmiris), I hope you will see the light of truth in due course

Regards
Pundit Vikram

[ravage]

Re: 16,000 Kashmiris Languishing in Indian Jails on Dubious Charges

Pundit sahab, speculating about the identity of posters instead of addressing their content is personalising the discussion. Please focus on the issues instead of trying to trace down the origin of others.

Thanks.

[vineshvk]

Re: 16,000 Kashmiris Languishing in Indian Jails on Dubious Charges

@janab-e-ali

There is only one Kashmir, 100% of which is unfortunately under Indian occupation. The areas Pakistan controls are parts of Jammu and Ladakh-Baltistan.

If so, then it will be for rest of our lives. But it is interesting that POK is not Kashmir. haha.. so that is why you dont have problem with all punjabies and Karachits occupying POK and changing the demography there.

The figures on the demand for independence are from Indian-occupied Kashmir.

@janab-e-ali

I could care less about trends in Jammu and Ladakh. In the last election, voter-turnout in the Kashmir region was around 15%. Moreover, your assumption it baseless. Making the best of a bad situation and voting isn’t tantamount to saying being a part of India is your ideal.

here, rediff.com: 47.2% polling recorded in first phase of J&K poll. Decide which part you want to be with ur independent Kashmir.

@janab-e-ali

1. After safely clearing out the only people whose wellbeing they were actually concerned with, the Indian government was able to give its 700,000 armed barbarians free reign to murder, rape, and pillage as they saw fit…without fear of killing any Hindus in the crossfire.

Army was jobless, so lets occupy Kashmir. Oh that was the plan was it. If so they would have done that in 1971 war itself.

@janab-e-ali

2. Dumping a couple thousand Pandits in shantytowns and refugee camps for 20 years was an excellent PR move for the Indian government too…the government can publicly shed a few crocodile tears over their plight, and use it as justification for the genocide in Kashmir.

Conspiracy theory. I love you guys, whenever you come up with such nice reasoning. The number, 209 pandits were also killed by Indian forces I suppose.

@janab-e-ali

NI Life and Times Survey - ~year: NIRELAND](NI Life and Times Survey - ~year: NIRELAND)

Just so you know…the British also already held a plebiscite in Northern Ireland back in 1973. Nearly 99% of voters opted to remain in the UK.

Oh so that 1% was giving the British all these trouble wasnt it.

[janab-e-ali]

Re: 16,000 Kashmiris Languishing in Indian Jails on Dubious Charges

@vineshvk

here, rediff.com: 47.2% polling recorded in first phase of J&K poll. Decide which part you want to be with ur independent Kashmir.

http://www.newindpress.com/election/2004/News.asp?Topic=-303&Title=Campaign+Reports&ID=IEU20040426142015&nDate=4/27/2004&Sub=0&Cat=&

Srinagar boycotts election

And like I said, its foolish to assume that voting in state elections somehow equals a desire to ultimately remain Indian citizens. People are just trying to make the best of a miserable situation by trying to minimize the corruption in the Indian colonial administration.

Funny how you completely disregard both polls that were actually taken on the issue, and choose to interpret your own biased meaning into other data. I guess basic intellectual honesty is too much to expect.

@vineshvk

Army was jobless, so lets occupy Kashmir. Oh that was the plan was it. If so they would have done that in 1971 war itself.

The issue here isn’t whether or not there was a militancy, Einstein. We were talking about the government’s role in building up mass hysteria among the Pandits and sparking the exodus. Nice try though.

@vineshvk

Conspiracy theory. I love you guys, whenever you come up with such nice reasoning. The number, 209 pandits were also killed by Indian forces I suppose.

You people are absurd. Your own police reports indicate something that goes against the propaganda you’ve apparently been spoonfed since childhood, so you refuse to believe it.

@Pundit_Vikram

I hope you will see the light of truth in due course

Spare me your colonial condescencion.

Like it or not, such oppression can never last forever. All imperial powers were initially convinced that they would never be forced to leave their colonial possessions. But all of them eventually did…and like it or not, it will eventually be India’s turn to quit Kashmir.

[vineshvk]

Re: 16,000 Kashmiris Languishing in Indian Jails on Dubious Charges

@janab-e-ali

http://www.newindpress.com/election/2004/News.asp?Topic=-303&Title=Campaign+Reports&ID=IEU20040426142015&nDate=4/27/2004&Sub=0&Cat=&
Srinagar boycotts election | World news | The Guardian

And like I said, its foolish to assume that voting in state elections somehow equals a desire to ultimately remain Indian citizens. People are just trying to make the best of a miserable situation by trying to minimize the corruption in the Indian colonial administration.

Funny how you completely disregard both polls that were actually taken on the issue, and choose to interpret your own biased meaning into other data. I guess basic intellectual honesty is too much to expect.

You disregard the whole constitution of India then I can easily disregard your biased polls.
So which part again is with your Kashmir country.:). Which poll and what is the sampling size.

@janab-e-ali

The issue here isn’t whether or not there was a militancy, Einstein. We were talking about the government’s role in building up mass hysteria among the Pandits and sparking the exodus. Nice try though.

Really, militancy(supported and abetted by Pakistan) preceded even before India accepted Kashmir into Indian union. Any discussion on these matter has to come down to militancy. Pandits would not have gone if there was no militancy.

@janab-e-ali

You people are absurd. Your own police reports indicate something that goes against the propaganda you’ve apparently been spoonfed since childhood, so you refuse to believe it.

The things that is fed to you and make some people a suicide bomber or a fidayeen is right out of quantum mechanics books I suppose. You are refusing to believe anything else other than what u want to believe.

[janab-e-ali]

Re: 16,000 Kashmiris Languishing in Indian Jails on Dubious Charges

You disregard the whole constitution of India then I can easily disregard your biased polls. So which part again is with your Kashmir country.:). Which poll and what is the sampling size.

Yes, yes...polls conducted by Indian organizations are biased against India too. Go ahead, keep your head in the sand.

Like it or not, such oppression can never last forever. All imperial powers were initially convinced that they would never be forced to leave their colonial possessions. But all of them eventually did...and like it or not, it will eventually be India's turn to quit Kashmir.

[malhot]

Re: 16,000 Kashmiris Languishing in Indian Jails on Dubious Charges

I have already challenged Janab to stand in the next Kashmir elections - if she has the votes & is elected by the kashmiri people, I will accept Janab represents them.

Otherwise Janab is just another load mouthed, hate filled 'extremist/Mullas' - The likes of which the Pakistani people have just kicked out in their recent elections.

Janab - let the excuses begin....................

[janab-e-ali]

Re: 16,000 Kashmiris Languishing in Indian Jails on Dubious Charges

I have already challenged Janab to stand in the next Kashmir elections - if she has the votes & is elected by the kashmiri people, I will accept Janab represents them.

Why would I ever voluntarily put myself in a position where I would have to swear allegiance to the government and constitution of India? My grandfather was repeatedly offered cabinet positions in the state government, and he refused for the same reason...why would I break that tradition?

PS...most of Kashmir doesn't vote according to your own government's voter turnout information.

Otherwise Janab is just another load mouthed, hate filled 'extremist/Mullas'

I haven't said a word about religion...you & the other Indians seem to be the ones who love to bring in into this discussion.

I don't know Arabic, I've never set foot in a madarsa, and I haven't worn hejab a day in my life...and yet, somehow, because I believe in the Kashmir movement, I'm a mullah. What stupidity...even by Indian standards.

[hollowman]

Re: 16,000 Kashmiris Languishing in Indian Jails on Dubious Charges

If I’m not mistaken terrorists don’t leave women alive in Indian Kashmir who don’t wear Hijabs, then how come you r still living there without any khauf?

[janab-e-ali]

@hollowman

If I’m not mistaken terrorists don’t leave women alive in Indian Kashmir who don’t wear Hijabs, then how come you r still living there without any khauf?

You are mistaken.

There have been occasional threats and sporadic attacks against women who don’t wear burqas by various extremist groups, but so many women ignore the orders that they’ve basically lost their relevance.

I was in Srinagar for my sister’s wedding when the first diktat came out…I still wore a sleeveless shalvar qameez to the wedding without any problems.

[vineshvk]

Yes, yes...polls conducted by Indian organizations are biased against India too. Go ahead, keep your head in the sand.

Like it or not, such oppression can never last forever. All imperial powers were initially convinced that they would never be forced to leave their colonial possessions. But all of them eventually did...and like it or not, it will eventually be India's turn to quit Kashmir.

You didnt tell me which part of Kashmir is with ur Kashmir country. The turnout was lowest only in one or two constituencies. Its indeed heartening to see even people coming out to vote with so much threat of violence from Kashmir extremists.

[janab-e-ali]

Re: 16,000 Kashmiris Languishing in Indian Jails on Dubious Charges

As I already pointed out, Srinagar district (where 25% of Kashmir lives) had 11% turnout in the 2002 election. 20% turnout in the 2004 election was regarded as an unprecedented success for the Indian authorities. Even in the districts you keep bringing up, most eligible voters stay home.

In any case, I've shown how silly it is to inject all this significance into 40% voter turnout when there are multiple polls specifically asking about independence...with 80-90% of the population coming out in favor. Go ahead...keep your head in the sand...it doesn't change reality.

[malhot]

Re: 16,000 Kashmiris Languishing in Indian Jails on Dubious Charges

Janab - is not concerned with POK, Janab is not concerned with Jammu, Janab is not concerned with Chinese occupied Kashmir (gifted by Pakistan), Janab is not concerned with Ladakh, Janab is not concerned with the hundreds of thousands of Hindu pandits forced out of their homes..........

Janab is no kashmiri, Janab is no female, Janab is just a hate filled person trying to revive a dead cause by stroking religious and victimisation passions.

Janab you have left India & are staying in San Fransisco or where ever - leave the people of Kashmir alone, people have moved on. Your hate filled articles shows you are living in a 'time warp' of the past.