16,000 Kashmiris Languishing in Indian Jails on Dubious Charges

[teggy]

Re: 16,000 Kashmiris Languishing in Indian Jails on Dubious Charges

[mod]Please refrain from insulting others based on their nationality, and at all costs avoid name calling. This is a sensitive topic, and we must learn to debate in a civil manner. Thank you. [/mod]

[teggy]

@malhot

1. It's good you are no longer using the 'muslim' card, and accepting that the '2 nation' theory was shallow. That culture, history plays a major part in how people percieve themselves.

2. How then would you justify the holding of 'azad kashmir' & 'northern territories' by pakistan??

Azad Kashmir=Indepedent Kashmir. Look it up please. As mentioned before, they have their own Govt, they vote, they choose their leaders.

1. Does that not bother you as a 'Kashmiri', that part of Kashmiris are illegally occupied by Pakistan (the only basis being that they are muslim)..

**Although i'm not from Kashmir, but i will tell you this much The part of Kashmir that is with Pakistan is not illegally held. It's a free independent state that happens to be within the borders of Pakistan.

The part of Kashmir that is within Indian controlled is termed as "Disputed Territory". Look up UN Resolution.**

1. Or is your view that "Aj liya hai thora sa Kashmir, phir lenga hum sara Kashmir'.

Again, Pakistanis favor a free and indepedent Kashmir. Does not have to be a part of Pakistan, if it does not want to be. It certainly does not want to be a part of India unless shown otherwise through independent polls or opinion surveys. It is still considered "Disputed Territory" by the way.

1. Independence is being yearned by Baloch people - would you support them in their quest for independence - afterall culturally they are different than Punjabis? What about the Sindhi's.

Non-Issue. Balochistan is a province and integral part of Pakistan, has always been that way from the time of Pakistan's formation. Kashmir is not an integral part of India (yet), unless free referendum is called for and the mandate indicates the Kashmiris' will to remain with India. Otherwise it is still Disputed Territory. Balochistan is not disputed territory, it's a part of Pakistan.

1. You have previously mentioned that the Hindu pundits' are purposely being kept as refugees - to gain sympathy by the Indian government. Is that why there were millions of Afgans kept in Pakistan - to gain sympathy. Here you failed your Kashmiri brethern.

Afghans were given shelter and taken in with open arms as they fled their home nation during the times of Soviet War. Now they're being sent back.

1. By starting this thread of illegally detained people - you have tried to imply that this has resulted in fueling this movement. Nowhere have you strongly condemned the Jihadi's messing up and hijacking the kashmiri movement.

Hijacking the Kashmiri movement? If it hadn't been hijacked, Kashmir would be free then? Really? :)

1. The ethnic cleansing, talibanising and making this a muslim movement has isolated the Kashmiri hindus, who now demand Punam Kashmir for themselves. You Kashmiri muslim have watched from the sidelines while these Jihadi barbarians destroyed the social fabric of Kashmir - and yet said nothing?? Why.

**I'll let Janab answer that. But i doubt this holds any truth because India has its Army deployed there and easily outnumber whatever little number of freedom fighters operate within Kashmir for their continued struggle.

And yes we all condemn the killing of innocent, no matter who they are, no matter what their nationality or religion. Do you condemn the killing of innocent civilians (Kashmiris included) at the hands of Indian Forces? ** 10. Just as the new generation has changed over time from pro Pakistan to pro independence - the final stage will come when they will be pro-India. Time is the best healer. (Think of USA and their civil war & what they are today - United & strong)

And until then it will remain a "Disputed Territory". Unless India can take really good care of the Kashmiris and they willingly want to become a part of India, till then the struggle continues.

Thank you for repetitive speech Malhot. Could you please address the questions put forth earlier. Kashmiris feel they are harrassed and Jailed on false charges. That is the issue here. Lets stay focused everybody.

NOTE (to everyone): Less rhetoric and more substance would be good. Thank you.

[janab-e-ali]

@malhot

1. It's good you are no longer using the 'muslim' card, and accepting that the '2 nation' theory was shallow. That culture, history plays a major part in how people percieve themselves.

The Muslim card only existed in your mind.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again. You Indian have been more successful in turning this into a Hindu-Muslim issue than Lashkar-e-Tayyiba and Hizbul Mujahideen ever were.

@malhot

1. How then would you justify the holding of 'azad kashmir' & 'northern territories' by pakistan??

   1. Does that not bother you as a 'Kashmiri', that part of Kashmiris are illegally occupied by Pakistan (the only basis being that they are muslim)..
      
   2. Or is your view that "Aj liya hai thora sa Kashmir, phir lenga hum sara Kashmir'.

For the last time, those are not parts of "Kashmir" and the people there are not "Kashmiris."

1. I have pointed out repeatedly that those people's ancestors rebelled in favor of Pakistan before the Pathan invasion, and actually joined forces with the Pathans.
2. This idea that the people of Azad Jammu Kashmir are being held in Pakistan against their will exists only the minds of communally-minded Indians. The people from Azad Kashmir that I've met have been some of the most jingoistic Pakistanis I've ever seen...every other family in AJK sends its children into the Pakistani army.
3. I have said repeatedly that there's no reason to compel people who are happy with the status quo into joining any independent Kashmiri state...if the Jammuites want to stay in India, and the people of AJK in Pakistan, then so be it.

@malhot

1. Independence is being yearned by Baloch people - would you support them in their quest for independence - afterall culturally they are different than Punjabis? What about the Sindhi's.

Balochistan and Sind weren't illegally occupied by Pakistan, nor do you have a shred of evidence to suggest that the majority of the population there wants independence.

@malhot

1. You have previously mentioned that the Hindu pundits' are purposely being kept as refugees - to gain sympathy by the Indian government. Is that why there were millions of Afgans kept in Pakistan - to gain sympathy. Here you failed your Kashmiri brethern.

Your analogies are ridiculous.

1. Pakistan played no role in the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan. India illegally occupied Kashmir.

2. Pakistan played no role in encouraging the Afghans to flee their homes. Governor Jagmohan did.

3. Pakistan did the best it could to accommodate 5 million penniless refugees. India dumped the 50-60,000 Pandits who couldn't arrange for shelter on their own in tent cities in Jammu.

@malhot

1. By starting this thread of illegally detained people - you have tried to imply that this has resulted in fueling this movement. Nowhere have you strongly condemned the Jihadi's messing up and hijacking the kashmiri movement.

I have condemned it...you just have a selective memory.

@malhot

1. The ethnic cleansing, talibanising and making this a muslim movement has isolated the Kashmiri hindus, who now demand Punam Kashmir for themselves. You Kashmiri muslim have watched from the sidelines while these Jihadi barbarians destroyed the social fabric of Kashmir - and yet said nothing?? Why.

1. 5. You talk of ethnic cleansing. Why, despite all the whining in India about Muslims having a higher birthrate than Hindus, is Jammu & Kashmir's Muslim population share decreasing? Why, according to your own government's figures, are the death tolls so skewed...over 19 years, your government claims that the war has claimed the lives of 209 Pandits...and 43,000 Kashmiri Muslims.
2. There has been no 'Talibanization' of Kashmir. It's still probably one of the most culturally liberal Muslim states in the world.
3. All this condemnation for the "Muslim" nature of the secular Kashmiri nationalist movement...and yet, when the Pandits call for a Hindu, openly fascist, anti-Muslim state (comprising of 60% of Kashmir's land, for just 4% of the population), we don't hear a word from you. Nothing but hypocrisy.
4. Jagmohan was as much responsible for the exodus of the Pandits as any Jihadi group was. As for "not saying a word" every leader in the Hurriyat has been calling for the return of the Pandits to Kashmir.
   

I don't even expect you to condemn the deaths of Muslim Kashmiris at the hands of your army anymore. It's become clear to me that crimes committed against Muslims don't matter to you at all...

@malhot

1. You have played the muslim victim card, trying to inflame passions - Babri musjid + 300 other muslim religious places destroyed, Pigs touching a student in Prison, etc etc. Make up your mind - are you a Muslim first and then Kashmiri, or the other way around.

I only bring up Babri Masjid + the hundreds of other destroyed mosques when Indians try to make ridiculous arguments about how nothing has been done to Muslims in India, and try to perpetuate this absurd notion of India as some secular utopia.

As for Kashmir men being raped in prison and kept with pigs...let me see if I understand your twisted logic. It's OK for Indian guards to torture Muslim prisoners, including tactics that are clearly designed to do nothing but insult their religious beliefs...but if people talk about these things, they're "playing the Muslim card." If that's how communally minded Indian guards mentally and physically torture Muslim prisoners, then I will talk about it. I'm not going to live in denial to protect your country's image.

To be honest, when I posted the article, all I wanted to convey was the level of inhuman torture Kashmiri prisoners are subject to in Indian jails...even when the evidence against them is flimsy/nonexistent. I was really more horrified by the fact that he was raped by the guards than anything with the pigs.

But, like clockwork, you Indians manage to find a way to put a "Muslim" spin on the issue.

@malhot

1. Just as the new generation has changed over time from pro Pakistan to pro independence - the final stage will come when they will be pro-India. Time is the best healer. (Think of USA and their civil war & what they are today - United & strong)

I've already pointed out why your US Civil War analogy is absurd.

The older generation of Kashmiris, who started this uprising in '89 had only witnessed political repression. This new generation of Kashmiris has grown up surrounded by a level of Indian military brutality and oppression that their parents and grandparents had never imagined in their worst nightmares.

The children who grew up watching their homes and villages being destroyed by security forces....their mothers and sisters being raped and molested by Indian soldiers...their fathers being illegally detained and "disappearing" in custody...unarmed protesters being butchered by paramilitary forces...as well as the daily indignities of just being Kashmiri (being slapped around by Indian soldiers, not being able to get passports, etc)...if anything, they have an even worse perception of Indian rule than previous generations did.

[hooda]

@teggy

Malhot: Good question. I hope to hear different perspective on that as well.

I have a question for you as well, and it's more of the same question you asked, except we've yet to hear a clear answer from you: Majority/All of the Pakistanis that responded and posted in this thread showed favor for an indepedent Kashmir, free of Pakistani influence. To your liking, or disappointment, i don't know if that was the answer you expected. So, having established that and your question answered.

Do you (and other Indian friends, feel free to respond as well), from an Indian perspective, support an Independent Kashmir? Why or Why not? Clearly if you do not, then your credibility on the issue that Pakistanis obsess about Kashmir holds no subtance. Like i said, most or all the people already said They would be happy to see an Independent Kashmir, thus announcing that Pakistan does not care if Kashmir is a part of it or not, but we do wish to see an independent Kashmir. And Azad Kashmir (Within Pakistani borders) is Free and independent btw. They have their own Govt. which allows them to run their own judicial system and serve justice.

The issue seems to be that Kashmiris residing in the occupied Kashmir (within Indian control) feel they don't have a free judicial system to follow and are often punished and jailed illegally because they're not indepedent nor do they have a voice, or so they claim.

So please, kindly state your stance on the issue. Your answer may give us a clue as to whether you are a supporter of Kashmiri freedom and/or rights! and if you don't support a Free and Indepedent Kashmir then why not? I btw, love the fact that India is the biggest democracy of Asia, or so it claims.

I think knowing that would give a balanced perspective to all those posting/reading, so we have defined lines of who stands where on this issue. Then continue debate based on that. :)

Thanks in advance.

NOTE: Guys/Ladies, it would be nice to not spin away from the topic of 'Illegal detention of Kashmiris', so lets continue posting keeping that in mind and tie in your response to the topic.

good sensible question...

no one in india support an independent kashmir...i can understand ur support for a free kashmir as some sort of a face saving excercise ..the animosity with india has'nt deliverd any good to the common man...

wat would compel india to make concessions on kashmir???

insurgency has'nt stopped the economy from progressing at a rate of 8 percent for the last 4 years..its economic success is respected evrywhere...and is touted as an emerging giant in asia...

if terrorism has not stopped the economic juggernut..why wouldwe offer any compromise on kashmir??

[hooda]

Re: 16,000 Kashmiris Languishing in Indian Jails on Dubious Charges

in other words we are not paying much for holding our ground... u are seeking concessions because of the heavy price u are paying for ...the economy is in doldrums and u are seeking a way out...

atleast in india the feeling is such...

[malhot]

Re: 16,000 Kashmiris Languishing in Indian Jails on Dubious Charges

A wake up call - for all who say Pakistan Occupied Kashmir (POK) is “azad” !!!??

http://www.greenleft.org.au/1998/334/20288

http://www.hrw.org/reports/2006/pakistan0906/6.htm#_Toc145923755

Kashmir's Ordeal - Chapter Six

http://archive.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGASA330182001?open&of=ENG-PAK

[teggy]

Re: 16,000 Kashmiris Languishing in Indian Jails on Dubious Charges

No answer, i see.

Why am i not surprised!

I’m not sure whether you read those links yourself, but the reason for their arrests and the clause present is "propagating any opinion or acting in any manner prejudicial to the ideology of Pakistan, the ideology of the State’s accession to Pakistan or the sovereignty, integrity of Pakistan or security of Azad Jammu and Kashmir or Pakistan, or morality, or the maintenance of public order, or the integrity or independence of the Judiciary of Azad Jammu and Kashmir or Pakistan, or who defames or brings into ridicule the Judiciary of Azad Jammu and Kashmir or Pakistan, or the Armed Forces of Pakistan.”

Amnesty simply states the arrests. Again read the clause above. Nice spin btw. Gotta love the change of tracks.

So would you like to address the issue of the thread or continue diverting from the core issue and further derailing thread?

Thanks.

PS: Maxist.com? “In Defense of Maxism” as the title say…Are you actually serious?

[Moonshiner]

time to post irrelevant links in a desperate attempt to prove my point

Straw clutcher.

[vineshvk]

Why doesn't your government hold a plebiscite and see. 1% of Pandit votes means around 1,400 people...I wouldn't be surprised if we had more support than that from among the Pandits, especially those that didn't listen to Jagmohan and stayed in Kashmir...and have witnessed the army's crimes firsthand.

More realistic way would be to have Hurriyat stand for the elections.

@janab-e-ali

As I have said before, you & your Indian compatriots have done an excellent job of making this just another Hindu-Muslim issue...a better job that LeT and Hizbul Mujahideen ever managed. 80-90% of Kashmiris are pretty clearly in favor of independence...but you demand to know how many Pandits do...as if 4% of the population can hold the remaining 95% hostage for their convenience.

Because it is just that. Kashmir want independence because it is muslim. Nothing more than that. I dont see any other community supporting ur free kashmir bus. Your freedom movement made it like that. You guys dont even get along with the shias living outside the valley.

@janab-e-ali

Be honest...if there was a disputed territory in Pakistan with a 95% Hindu, 4% Muslim population...where the overwhelming majority wanted to be out of Pakistan, even though most of the tiny Muslim minority wanted to stay...would you still be acting this way?

Thats stupid!!. It was not India who wanted a division based on religion. It is pakistan who wanted it. And if the people want to be with India, India will oblige. Religion was not the basis for the creation of India, it is for Pakistan. So the onus lies in Pakistan not on India.

@janab-e-ali

The British sold our ancestors to the Dogras...how did we bring that on to ourselves?

It was not the first place the british sold to kings or zamindars.

@janab-e-ali

Except for the eastern hill states and Kashmir, it does.

Little wonder then that those are the areas that have had the biggest problems with being a part of India.Sikh rule in Kashmir lasted 27 years.

Before that, Kashmir was part of the Afghan empire for nearly 70 years.

Prior to that, it was part of the Mughal Empire for a little over 150 years...modern day Afghanistan was under Mughal rule even longer, does that mean that they're "Indian" too?

And before Mughal rule, Kashmir was independent for over 1000 years.

Kashmir had a great hindu tredition or do u deny that. And southern state especially tamil nadu doesnt have a lot of sanskrit influence.

@janab-e-ali

So what? We had economic ties with what is now Pakistan. We also had ties with everyone along the Silk Road.

That was India my dear. There was no Pakistan at that time. Pakistan came into existance on 14th august 1947.

@janab-e-ali

Our culture is still distinct...our language is closer to Farsi than to any Indian language, and our culture and way of life is more Central Asian than Subcontinental.

U might be martian then. what part of the culture u follow from the central asia. Many other indian people also claim to have been from central asia.

@janab-e-ali

I've already gone over this repeatedly..I'm not doing it again.

May be you said it, but i havent heard it.

[vineshvk]

@teggy

No answer, i see.

Why am i not surprised!

I’m not sure whether you read those links yourself, but the reason for their arrests and the clause present is "propagating any opinion or acting in any manner prejudicial to the ideology of Pakistan, the ideology of the State’s accession to Pakistan or the sovereignty, integrity of Pakistan or security of Azad Jammu and Kashmir or Pakistan, or morality, or the maintenance of public order, or the integrity or independence of the Judiciary of Azad Jammu and Kashmir or Pakistan, or who defames or brings into ridicule the Judiciary of Azad Jammu and Kashmir or Pakistan, or the Armed Forces of Pakistan.”

Amnesty simply states the arrests. Again read the clause above. Nice spin btw. Gotta love the change of tracks.

So would you like to address the issue of the thread or continue diverting from the core issue and further derailing thread?

Thanks.

PS: Maxist.com? “In Defense of Maxism” as the title say…Are you actually serious?

“No person or political party in Azad Jammu and Kashmir shall be permitted to propagate against or take part in activities prejudicial or detrimental to the ideology of the State’s accession to Pakistan.
—Part 7(2) of the Azad Jammu and Kashmir Interim Constitution Act, 1974”
Is this true Teggy? This is a honest question.

[mufakkar]

"No person or political party in Azad Jammu and Kashmir shall be permitted to propagate against or take part in activities prejudicial or detrimental to the ideology of the State’s accession to Pakistan. —Part 7(2) of the Azad Jammu and Kashmir Interim Constitution Act, 1974" Is this true Teggy? This is a honest question.

Just google Azad Kashmir and every Indian propoganda site comes out with this article. The question is: why are you bothered by this clause of the interim constitution which was passed by the elected representatives of the people Azad Kashmir and hence a reflection of thier wishes and aspirations at the time?

Secondly, has anyone ever been prosecuted under this clause?

Thirdly, does it even begin to compare to the antics of the government in Occupied Kashmir?

[janab-e-ali]

More realistic way would be to have Hurriyat stand for the elections.

Why? The last time pro-independence parties ran in Kashmiri elections was in 1987 - New Delhi responded by arresting the candidates, sending in soldiers to beat and intimidate polling officers and voters, and stealing all the ballot boxes in broad daylight and replacing them with boxes stuffed with fake votes.

When the system is that corrupt, why would anyone with an ounce of integrity participate.

Because it is just that. Kashmir want independence because it is muslim. Nothing more than that. I dont see any other community supporting ur free kashmir bus. Your freedom movement made it like that. You guys dont even get along with the shias living outside the valley.

And again, if virtually all Kashmiris are Muslim (which they are), then any popular political movement will be Muslim-dominated.

As for your nonsense about Shias...Kashmir is about 20% Shia. Most of my family is Shia...and they're all still in favor of an independent Kashmir. This myth of Shias not supporting the azaadi movement is just another lie that the Indian media has come up with to discredit us.

Thats stupid!!. It was not India who wanted a division based on religion. It is pakistan who wanted it. And if the people want to be with India, India will oblige. Religion was not the basis for the creation of India, it is for Pakistan. So the onus lies in Pakistan not on India.

Like I expected...you have a double standard. Big surprise.

Kashmir had a great hindu tredition or do u deny that.

North India once had a great Buddhist tradition. It still has virtually nothing in common with Tibet and Bhutan today.

And southern state especially tamil nadu doesnt have a lot of sanskrit influence.

Which is why Tamil is filled with Sanskrit words.

That was India my dear. There was no Pakistan at that time. Pakistan came into existance on 14th august 1947.

That was South Asia, or the British Indian Empire. "India" as we know it didn't come into existence till August 15, 1947. Whatever ties Kashmir had to South Asia were to what is now Pakistan, not "India."

And like I said, Kashmir had historic ties to every country along the Silk Road...the culture that developed as a result isn't very closely related to anything else in South Asia.

U might be martian then. what part of the culture u follow from the central asia. Many other indian people also claim to have been from central asia.

Like I said, our language is closer to Persian than to Hindi/Urdu/Punjabi. Our cuisine, clothing, architecture, and general way of life is more Central Asian than Subcontinental.

[malhot]

Re: 16,000 Kashmiris Languishing in Indian Jails on Dubious Charges

Janab - Most of your answers are shallow and avoid the basic questions asked by me. ..

Do you want me to repeat them, or are you ashamed to answer them, seeing how you people let the Pakistani Jihadi's hijack your movement.

"I am sorry, but I am not giving you independence. Take what is there, or leave it".

[vineshvk]

Why? The last time pro-independence parties ran in Kashmiri elections was in 1987 - New Delhi responded by arresting the candidates, sending in soldiers to beat and intimidate polling officers and voters, and stealing all the ballot boxes in broad daylight and replacing them with boxes stuffed with fake votes.

But there were free and fair elections in 2001 wasnt it (foreign observers were allowed to visit and they agreed that the elections were free). Why didnt the parties contest.

quote=janab-e-ali] When the system is that corrupt, why would anyone with an ounce of integrity participate.
[/quote]

When you have such prejudice then its a waste talking to u.

@janab-e-ali

And again, if virtually all Kashmiris are Muslim (which they are), then any popular political movement will be Muslim-dominated.

As for your nonsense about Shias...Kashmir is about 20% Shia. Most of my family is Shia...and they're all still in favor of an independent Kashmir. This myth of Shias not supporting the azaadi movement is just another lie that the Indian media has come up with to discredit us.

Since u r the spokesperson, tell me how many percentage of shias support ur cause.

@janab-e-ali

Like I expected...you have a double standard. Big surprise.

No it is not. Tell me if this is not true. Was pakistan created based on religion. Did the congress not opposed its creation and hindus not supporting a divided India. Why would India have a problem when people genuinely wish to be with India.

@janab-e-ali

North India once had a great Buddhist tradition. It still has virtually nothing in common with Tibet and Bhutan today.

What are u comparing. Does hinduism not precedes budhism. They were hindus, then they converted to budhist and then back to hinduism again. Besides these two religion are very close to each other.

@janab-e-ali

Which is why Tamil is filled with Sanskrit words.

:). There you go. I understand u r very good with Kashmir, but dont come south.

@janab-e-ali

That was South Asia, or the British Indian Empire. "India" as we know it didn't come into existence till August 15, 1947. Whatever ties Kashmir had to South Asia were to what is now Pakistan, not "India."

India existed before as well. It was divided among princely states thats all. columbus wanted a route to India. People wanted to trade with India not with Kerala, tn or andhra or not even with Pakistan. on august 15th 1947 division of India happened which also coincided with the british leaving India.

@janab-e-ali

And like I said, Kashmir had historic ties to every country along the Silk Road...the culture that developed as a result isn't very closely related to anything else in South Asia.

Kerala had ties with portugese, chinese and alians, so should we demand a seperate country.

@janab-e-ali

Like I said, our language is closer to Persian than to Hindi/Urdu/Punjabi. Our cuisine, clothing, architecture, and general way of life is more Central Asian than Subcontinental.

There are many words from arabic language incorporated into Hindi. besides all these languages falls under indo-european family of languages.

[vineshvk]

Just google Azad Kashmir and every Indian propoganda site comes out with this article. The question is: why are you bothered by this clause of the interim constitution which was passed by the elected representatives of the people Azad Kashmir and hence a reflection of thier wishes and aspirations at the time?

Secondly, has anyone ever been prosecuted under this clause?

Thirdly, does it even begin to compare to the antics of the government in Occupied Kashmir?

Its a question to you guys, Is this true or not. Answer to that, because I believe POK cannot be independent if such a part is inserted in their constitution. If Indian part of Kashmir also can have such a sentence favouring India, would that make that state independent.

[Moonshiner]

Janab - Most of your answers are shallow and avoid the basic questions asked by me. ..

Actually that's another lie by the Indians on this thread in a desperate attempt to cover up their hatred for Muslims, women and Kashmiris. It must be repeated again and again that the Indians on this thread support the rape of Kashmiri women.

Malhot, Janab has defeated you singelhandedly in this debate, and you cannot stand it. It's actually quite funny to see rapist supporters get frustrated.

[vineshvk]

^ thanks Judge. Give him the trophy. We still keep Kashmir.:)

[Moonshiner]

^ thanks Judge. Give him the trophy. We still keep Kashmir.:)

Keep raping innocent women, since that's the only thing your brave army is capable of.

[janab-e-ali]

But there were free and fair elections in 2001 wasnt it (foreign observers were allowed to visit and they agreed that the elections were free). Why didnt the parties contest.

So 2 relatively free elections in 60 years somehow change the overall trend?

Perhaps the reason why the Indian government allowed those elections to proceed without any blatant rigging was because no pro-independence parties have participated since the 1987 debacle.

Since u r the spokesperson, tell me how many percentage of shias support ur cause.

Where am I supposed to get a percentage from?

There are plenty of Shias in the Hurriyat. There are plenty of Shias who support azaadi...I don't know where Indians have gotten the idea that we don't.

No it is not. Tell me if this is not true. Was pakistan created based on religion. Did the congress not opposed its creation and hindus not supporting a divided India. Why would India have a problem when people genuinely wish to be with India.

Of course its a double standard. India will claim Muslim-majority areas that wanted to go to Pakistan, because the Hindu maharaja said it was OK. And if Pakistan does anything about it...they're invading. India will also claim Hindu-majority areas that fell under Pakistani jurisdiction by the decision of some Nawab...and if India invades to take control, they're just "obliging" the local population.

It's a double standard through and through...not that I've come to expect any better from Indians.

What are u comparing. Does hinduism not precedes budhism. They were hindus, then they converted to budhist and then back to hinduism again. Besides these two religion are very close to each other.

Great...and after 95% of Kashmir's population converted to Islam, there was a cultural shift there too. A "great Hindu history" doesn't change modern cultural realities.

India existed before as well. It was divided among princely states thats all. columbus wanted a route to India. People wanted to trade with India not with Kerala, tn or andhra or not even with Pakistan. on august 15th 1947 division of India happened which also coincided with the british leaving India.

"Hind" or "Hindustan" from which "India" is derived, was a generic geographical term like "Europe" or "Africa," not a political or cultural entity.

Kerala had ties with portugese, chinese and alians, so should we demand a seperate country.

Were you forced to join India against your will? Were the people of Kerala subsequently politically suppressed for the next 60 years? Do most people support independence today? If that's the case, then yes, you should.

besides all these languages falls under indo-european family of languages.

Ah...so India has a right to occupy all of Europe, North & South America, Iran, and Central Asia...after all, their languages fall into the Indo European category as well.

[malhot]

Re: 16,000 Kashmiris Languishing in Indian Jails on Dubious Charges

Janab you have obviously 'left' India, and that too on an Indian passport

Thereby you must have applied for an Indian passport and accepted to abide by the consititution of India!!!?.

"jis thali sey khatey ho, osee par thokte ho"