Being a traitor to a racist country like India is a very commendable act.
The Indians on this thread are the only ones filled with barbaric hatred towards women, Muslims and Kashmiris. They are the biggest supporters of rape and murder.
Hello Moonshiner,
This is how traitors justify their sins to themselves. But the sins catch up with them sooner than they estimate. See how most of the terrorists turned their guns and bombs internally towards Pakistan? You may think that your terrorist acts of killing innocent civilians including women and children is somehow helping your cause but as recent history has proven beyond doubt, in every province and major city of Pakistan itself, these monsters you create come and bite you.
As to Indians and barbaric hatred, locally you can get any book on the birth of Bangla Desh and see who performed barbaric acts on their citizens. Or internationally, pick up any book on jihad and you will find which country's borders are considered the breeding grounds for terrorists.
Please, let us not get into slander match here and argue on substance.
You're not understanding correctly. I said he was in jail/exile/house arrest for most of that twenty year period...which no one will deny. This is really just getting pathetic.
Original quote of urs did not have the most in it.
I repeat...does the fact that virtually no Muslims supported the Congress Party make them any less of a "nationalist" party?
I am talking about the 1937 election when the separate nation idea based on religion did not come up. The fact that congress did well then and later lost is because of the muslim leagues, hindu phobia driven political campaign. The fact also that Congress contested against a muslim party in segregated electoral system is an intent that it stood for nationalism than religious bigotry.
Can the kashmiri separatist movement get even 1% Kashmiri pandits vote to be independent.
As for the other 1/2 which fell under the authority of various princely states...most princes had the decency to make their decision based on the demographics of their state and popular opinion. In the few cases where the princes openly flouted the will of their subjects, and their subjects wanted to join India [Junagadh, Hyderabad]...your government was more than happy to invade, and promptly hold a plebiscite so the people could be heard. It's only Kashmir that we see the India's total hypocrisy.
I come from a erstwhile princely state. So factually my forefather did not make a choice. The rest depends on circumstances.
Indian culture. Again an abstract thing. Its people. There are different people from different origin. So how do u define this vast nation.
PS...I though you people pride yourself on the strength of your "Indian" identity. You take so much joy in denouncing the two-nation theory, and yet here you are complaining about how your secular utopia has no binding national identity.
Really!!!. I am proud of my country. I am also proud of my state. I keep my state identity and culture and this way contribute to the national identity of India. Indian identity is a sum of all contribution from different state culture, language and morals. No state is inferior or superior to the other.
What you try to conserve is ur islamic identity not kashmiriyat that u proudly portray here. U would still be able to do that under Indian union, but of course you wouldn't be able to implement islamic laws to the non-islamic people. U are also afraid that u will be overwhelmed by the weight of people from other states coming to ur valley.
This utopia that u create of a secular Kashmir is long gone as soon as the terrorist started their work in the valley.
The only roads out of Kashmir that are usable year round go to Rawalpindi and Sialkot in Pakistan.
So was their ancient ties. I would like to hear them.
If the Pathans hadn't gotten so caught up in raping and looting, I doubt they would have encountered much resistance from the people of Kashmir either. Outside Sheikh Abdullah's power base in urban Srinagar, most of the population was probably in favor of joining Pakistan anyways.
That did not happen and Indian forces were able to drive away the pathans. So what was ur kashmiri people doing for freedom. At that point of time, joining Pakistan was ur priority, now independence. This is why I ask you to make up your mind.
I am talking about the 1937 election when the separate nation idea based on religion did not come up. The fact that congress did well then and later lost is because of the muslim leagues, hindu phobia driven political campaign. The fact also that Congress contested against a muslim party in segregated electoral system is an intent that it stood for nationalism than religious bigotry.
Can the kashmiri separatist movement get even 1% Kashmiri pandits vote to be independent.
One could just as easily apply your argument to Kashmir and argue that the reason why the Pandits tend to reject secular Kashmiri nationalism is because of their "Muslim-phobic" political agenda...as they feel that their communal interests would best be served in a Hindu-dominated India.
I come from a erstwhile princely state. So factually my forefather did not make a choice. The rest depends on circumstances.
Great...so the raja/nawab did the responsible thing, and decided on the future of his dominions in accordance with local demographics/what the people would want.
The foreign tyrants imposed on Kashmir didn't have that much integrity.
Indian culture. Again an abstract thing. Its people. There are different people from different origin. So how do u define this vast nation.
I said Indic cultures...which refers to the relatively interrelated, Sancritic cultures of mainland India...which, thanks to our geographic and historic isolation, we generally have not been a part of.
Really!!!. I am proud of my country. I am also proud of my state. I keep my state identity and culture and this way contribute to the national identity of India. Indian identity is a sum of all contribution from different state culture, language and morals. No state is inferior or superior to the other.
Good for you. The fact remains that you have sacrificed a certain degree of your ethnonational identity so you can be incorporated into "India." We are not willing to do the same.
What you try to conserve is ur islamic identity not kashmiriyat that u proudly portray here. U would still be able to do that under Indian union, but of course you wouldn't be able to implement islamic laws to the non-islamic people. U are also afraid that u will be overwhelmed by the weight of people from other states coming to ur valley.
This utopia that u create of a secular Kashmir is long gone as soon as the terrorist started their work in the valley.
Blah blah blah.
Like most other Indians, you seem incapable of comprehending the fact that there are Muslims in the world who believe in secular government...apparently in your minds, only the land of the BJP and the RSS is capable of secularism. You Indians have been more successful in turning this into a Hindu-Muslim issue than Lashkar-e-Tayyiba and company.
So was their ancient ties. I would like to hear them.
What are you talking about?
That did not happen
What exactly are you denying? That the people of Azad Kashmir and Gilgit actually rebelled in favor of joining Pakistan?
This is why I ask you to make up your mind.
One thing has always been true, and will always be true...most Kashmiris don't want to be with India.
One could just as easily apply your argument to Kashmir and argue that the reason why the Pandits tend to reject secular Kashmiri nationalism is because of their "Muslim-phobic" political agenda...as they feel that their communal interests would best be served in a Hindu-dominated India.
I ask u again do u even get 1% of pandits votes like the congress used to get. May be u dont even get the 100% muslim votes for a independent kashmir.
The foreign tyrants imposed on Kashmir didn't have that much integrity.
u brought it on your self.
Not all part of India has a sanskritik culture. Second part is not true at all. Kashmir was under mughals, sikhs for most part of its history. Besides the road to India was through Pakistan (that time India). So u cannot say that u r an isolated country with very unique culture.
What is that sacrifice. I dont know what u mean. Am i restricted by any means. What is so special about Kashmir that I dont know.
I ask u again do u even get 1% of pandits votes like the congress used to get. May be u dont even get the 100% muslim votes for a independent kashmir.
Why doesn't your government hold a plebiscite and see. 1% of Pandit votes means around 1,400 people...I wouldn't be surprised if we had more support than that from among the Pandits, especially those that didn't listen to Jagmohan and stayed in Kashmir...and have witnessed the army's crimes firsthand.
As I have said before, you & your Indian compatriots have done an excellent job of making this just another Hindu-Muslim issue...a better job that LeT and Hizbul Mujahideen ever managed. 80-90% of Kashmiris are pretty clearly in favor of independence...but you demand to know how many Pandits do...as if 4% of the population can hold the remaining 95% hostage for their convenience.
Be honest...if there was a disputed territory in Pakistan with a 95% Hindu, 4% Muslim population...where the overwhelming majority wanted to be out of Pakistan, even though most of the tiny Muslim minority wanted to stay...would you still be acting this way?
u brought it on your self.
The British sold our ancestors to the Dogras...how did we bring that on to ourselves?
Not all part of India has a sanskritik culture.
Except for the eastern hill states and Kashmir, it does.
Little wonder then that those are the areas that have had the biggest problems with being a part of India.
Second part is not true at all. Kashmir was under mughals, sikhs for most part of its history.
Sikh rule in Kashmir lasted 27 years.
Before that, Kashmir was part of the Afghan empire for nearly 70 years.
Prior to that, it was part of the Mughal Empire for a little over 150 years...modern day Afghanistan was under Mughal rule even longer, does that mean that they're "Indian" too?
And before Mughal rule, Kashmir was independent for over 1000 years.
Besides the road to India was through Pakistan (that time India). So u cannot say that u r an isolated country with very unique culture.
So what? We had economic ties with what is now Pakistan. We also had ties with everyone along the Silk Road.
Our culture is still distinct...our language is closer to Farsi than to any Indian language, and our culture and way of life is more Central Asian than Subcontinental.
What is that sacrifice. I dont know what u mean. Am i restricted by any means. What is so special about Kashmir that I dont know.
I've already gone over this repeatedly..I'm not doing it again.
This is how traitors justify their sins to themselves.
There are no sins, only the ones you made up. Apparently, it's not a sin for the Indian army to murder, pillage and rape according to your warped world view.'
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Please, let us not get into slander match here and argue on *substance. *
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Your posts hardly have any substance, only hatred.
Re: 16,000 Kashmiris Languishing in Indian Jails on Dubious Charges
Hello all!
People arguing for separating Kashmir from India whether to be independent or to join with Pakistan are just brainwashed not only about history but also current affairs.
Historically, at the time of independence from the Brits, there were to be only two countries India and Pakistan. Kashmir joined India to protect itself from the Pakistani invaders. I think the Raja of Kashmir wrote a letter giving account of this which I will try and find (I have seen it somewhere online).
At present, a lot has changed. Since Pakistan has occupied POK and stationed troops in violation of UN mandate, India has taken the plebiscite of the table a long time ago. Since then, through a series of terrorist attacks and other disgusting tactics, the Hindu population of Kashmir has been affected.
India has not dealt with this strongly enough whihc gives some India haters to use this along with the muslim card!
Therefore the entirity of pages and pages of arguments put forth by people like Janab e Ali are nothing but empty hot air trying to push forward Pakistan's agenda.
People arguing for separating Kashmir from India whether to be independent or to join with Pakistan are just brainwashed not only about history but also current affairs.
And people like you have been brainwashed in your hatred of women, Kashmiris and Muslims.
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India has not dealt with this strongly enough whihc gives some India haters to use this along with the muslim card!
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Translation: The Indian army has every right to kill every Kashmiri and rape every Kashmiri woman.
[QUOTE]
Therefore the entirity of pages and pages of arguments put forth by people like Janab e Ali are nothing but empty hot air trying to push forward Pakistan's agenda.
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Vikram is absolutely right. That's why Vikram supports the Indian agenda to murder and rape Kashmiris.
And people like you have been brainwashed in your hatred of women, Kashmiris and Muslims.
Translation: The Indian army has every right to kill every Kashmiri and rape every Kashmiri woman.
Vikram is absolutely right. That's why Vikram supports the Indian agenda to murder and rape Kashmiris.
Hello Moonshiner,
Your response clearly shows how anxious you are to hide from the light of truth being shone on the agenda driven lies sone of you are trying to spread here. But it will not succeed at all.
Every time I call you and Janab e Ali on a lie, you start whining that I am against all muslims.
So I will make it clear just this once - what you are using is a pathetic last ditch trick that is a sure sign of losers.
Re: 16,000 Kashmiris Languishing in Indian Jails on Dubious Charges
Muffakar bhai - surprisingly Kashmiri's don't want anything to do with Pakistan too.
Pakistan has suffered a lot due to its efforts to take Kashmir (waste of money, arms, Jihadi culture, internal termoil, Economic slowdown, Army dictatorships, loss of BD, internationally considered breading ground for terrorists, etc etc).
Despite all this - the least, I can do is ask "why" the Kashmiri's do not want to join with Pakistan anymore, and prefer to become independent !!!. There has to be a reason?.
Re: 16,000 Kashmiris Languishing in Indian Jails on Dubious Charges
Malhot: Good question. I hope to hear different perspective on that as well.
I have a question for you as well, and it's more of the same question you asked, except we've yet to hear a clear answer from you: Majority/All of the Pakistanis that responded and posted in this thread showed favor for an indepedent Kashmir, free of Pakistani influence.
To your liking, or disappointment, i don't know if that was the answer you expected. So, having established that and your question answered.
Do you (and other Indian friends, feel free to respond as well), from an Indian perspective, support an Independent Kashmir? Why or Why not? Clearly if you do not, then your credibility on the issue that Pakistanis obsess about Kashmir holds no subtance. Like i said, most or all the people already said They would be happy to see an Independent Kashmir, thus announcing that Pakistan does not care if Kashmir is a part of it or not, but we do wish to see an independent Kashmir. And Azad Kashmir (Within Pakistani borders) is Free and independent btw. They have their own Govt. which allows them to run their own judicial system and serve justice.
The issue seems to be that Kashmiris residing in the occupied Kashmir (within Indian control) feel they don't have a free judicial system to follow and are often punished and jailed illegally because they're not indepedent nor do they have a voice, or so they claim.
So please, kindly state your stance on the issue. Your answer may give us a clue as to whether you are a supporter of Kashmiri freedom and/or rights! and if you don't support a Free and Indepedent Kashmir then why not? I btw, love the fact that India is the biggest democracy of Asia, or so it claims.
I think knowing that would give a balanced perspective to all those posting/reading, so we have defined lines of who stands where on this issue. Then continue debate based on that. :)
Thanks in advance.
NOTE: Guys/Ladies, it would be nice to not spin away from the topic of 'Illegal detention of Kashmiris', so lets continue posting keeping that in mind and tie in your response to the topic.
Do you (and other Indian friends, feel free to respond as well), from an Indian perspective, support an Independent Kashmir? Why or Why not? Clearly if you do not, then your credibility on the issue that Pakistanis obsess about Kashmir holds no subtance.
Hello Teggy,
Not at all. You are approaching kashmir as if India and Pakistan come at it from the same position and perspective. The reasons it is easy for Pakistanis here to 'easily' agree to independent Kashmir are 3 folds:
1) Kashmir is not part of Pakistan, so it is easy for Pakistanis to 'give it away'
2) Pakistani's would love to see Kashmir separated from India because in their minds this is the only way to make up for loss of East Pakistan
3) They also think that an independent Kashmir will eventually become part of Pa*k*istan - since directly asking for it and jihading for it hasn't worked for 60 years, why not try a 'independent' method?
What you are saying therefore is incorrect. It is like Indians saying Sindh or Bauchistan should be given independence. If Pakistanis don't agree with that, will you call them lacking credibility?
Re: 16,000 Kashmiris Languishing in Indian Jails on Dubious Charges
Are you then saying that Kashmir is an integral part of India? Because its widely known to be "Disputed Territory", hence no one can claim it as theirs. You cannot give an example of Balochistan seeking independence because Pakistan has 4 provinces, and they're all accepted as such. Occupied Kashmir or "Disputed Territory" for the sake of debate, however is not considered a part of India or Pakistan. If it is, then please prove it citing a credible source! Something along the lines of UN Resolution would be good. :)
That aside, please shed some light on the topical issue as well. You may tie it to your perspective on the entire issue of Independence if you like. The debate should focus 'Kashmiris languishing in Indian Jails on Dubious Charges' because that's what the title/topic of this discussion is.
Maybe the Kashmiris and the Pakistanis have come to a different understanding over the years...its all about respecting what Kashmiris want. The fact still remains that they do NOT want anything to do with you and WHY you don't respect their wishes.
Muffakar bhai - surprisingly Kashmiri's don't want anything to do with Pakistan too.
Pakistan has suffered a lot due to its efforts to take Kashmir (waste of money, arms, Jihadi culture, internal termoil, Economic slowdown, Army dictatorships, loss of BD, internationally considered breading ground for terrorists, etc etc).
Despite all this - the least, I can do is ask "why" the Kashmiri's do not want to join with Pakistan anymore, and prefer to become independent !!!. There has to be a reason?.
Kashmir joined India to protect itself from the Pakistani invaders. I think the Raja of Kashmir wrote a letter giving account of this which I will try and find (I have seen it somewhere online).
The Dogra Maharaja was a foreign tyrant, imposed on Kashmir by the British. His unilateral decision...which clearly went against the will of the democratically elected state assembly, as well the recommendations of his own prime minister and advisers, is not a legitimate expression of Kashmir's aspirations.
The Indian government had no problem disregarding the decisions of Muslim kings who went against the will of their mostly Hindu populations...but, being the hypocrites that they are, they didn't seem to have any problem endorsing the Dogra king's absurd decision.
Despite all this - the least, I can do is ask "why" the Kashmiri's do not want to join with Pakistan anymore, and prefer to become independent !!!. There has to be a reason?.
Janab - please explain.
I think there are a number of factors at play.
First of all, after the 1947-48 war, most of the leaders and activists of the Muslim Conference, the leftist parties, etc (who were most active in the pro-Pakistan movement) were forced into exile by the Indian government. With much of the organization gone, the movement started to fragment.
Also, after the war the LoC was sealed, and Kashmir was isolated from Pakistan. For decades after partition, the Indian government didn't even allow people in Kashmir to make phone calls to Pakistan, let alone travel there freely. With communication and transportation cut off, the traditional social & economic bonds between Kashmir & West Punjab, which once made accession to Pakistan a natural choice, decayed.
After the fall of the repressive Dogras, Kashmir began to develop a more educated & politically informed Muslim population...who were less likely than their parents to be swayed in favor of joining Pakistan simply because it was a Muslim country. The younger generations realized that Pakistan had plenty of problems too...and that Kashmir's issues could only be resolved through self-rule.
In more recent years, I think the involvement of various foreign extremist groups in terrorism in Kashmir hasn't helped with Pakistan's popularity in the region either.
Re: 16,000 Kashmiris Languishing in Indian Jails on Dubious Charges
It's good you are no longer using the 'muslim' card, and accepting that the '2 nation' theory was shallow. That culture, history plays a major part in how people percieve themselves.
How then would you justify the holding of 'azad kashmir' & 'northern territories' by pakistan??
Does that not bother you as a 'Kashmiri', that part of Kashmiris are illegally occupied by Pakistan (the only basis being that they are muslim)..
Or is your view that "Aj liya hai thora sa Kashmir, phir lenga hum sara Kashmir'.
Independence is being yearned by Baloch people - would you support them in their quest for independence - afterall culturally they are different than Punjabis? What about the Sindhi's.
You have previously mentioned that the Hindu pundits' are purposely being kept as refugees - to gain sympathy by the Indian government. Is that why there were millions of Afgans kept in Pakistan - to gain sympathy. Here you failed your Kashmiri brethern.
By starting this thread of illegally detained people - you have tried to imply that this has resulted in fueling this movement. Nowhere have you strongly condemned the Jihadi's messing up and hijacking the kashmiri movement.
The ethnic cleansing, talibanising and making this a muslim movement has isolated the Kashmiri hindus, who now demand Punam Kashmir for themselves. You Kashmiri muslim have watched from the sidelines while these Jihadi barbarians destroyed the social fabric of Kashmir - and yet said nothing?? Why.
You have played the muslim victim card, trying to inflame passions - Babri musjid + 300 other muslim religious places destroyed, Pigs touching a student in Prison, etc etc. Make up your mind - are you a Muslim first and then Kashmiri, or the other way around.
Just as the new generation has changed over time from pro Pakistan to pro independence - the final stage will come when they will be pro-India. Time is the best healer. (Think of USA and their civil war & what they are today - United & strong)