it is their human right to practice religion of their own choice
I Agree, and but it is not their right to portray themselves what they are not...
Otherwise tomorrow u might say that, it is the human right of deceiver to deceive, and he should be prosecuted for that, it is profession of their choice...
If you are Muslim then let me quote you if this incident to open your eyes:
On the arrival of Prophet Muhammad SAW Abdullah Bin Obey Bin Salul was The leader of the Medinites. Gradually things changed and people accepted hazrat Muhammad SAW as their leader This made Abdullah Bin Obey Bin Salul extremely jealous. Returning from a failed expedition, he declared that upon returning to Medina, the noblest among them would turn out in disgrace the meanest of them. The message was clear and everyone knew what he meant. His own son asked Hazrat Muhammad SAW to permit him to slay his father but the." The Holy Prophet SAWsmiled and said: "No, there is nothing to be done. Your father will not be punished by anyone." They all returned to Medina and for many years this man lived in peace under the full protection of the Holy Foundersa of Islam, against whom he had blasphemed. When he died, the Holy Prophetsa decided to lead his funeral prayers. This was a bit too much for some of his companions. Umarra reports that he blocked his passage and said: "Is he not the leader of the hypocrites? Is he not the one about whom God has said that even if you ask forgiveness for him seventy times, he would not be forgiven? Then why O Prophet of God, who is the recipient of all these revelations, have you decided to lead his funeral prayer?'; The answer was: "Umar, get aside; if God has informed me that he would not forgive the hypocrites even if I prayed for them seventy times, I would pray much more than that in the hope that Allah will ultimately forgive them". Such was the character of the Holy Foundersa of Islam. He was a man of extreme compassion, a man of principles, a man who lived a life of truth and nothing but the truth.
Hanibal you, nor any LAW has the right to tell anyone what someone's religion is. Tell me what do you think about SHIA? ISMAILI?
Do you hold the same views for them as you do for Ahmadies? Ahmadies Offer 5 daily prayers called their place of worship Mosque recite Holy Quran Offer Zakaat Offer Hajj (maybe not from Pakistan but hey come on Ahmadies are all over the world not just in Pakistan) Most of all their Kalima is same as yours.
back to topic...I condemn this act of ignorance, use of power incorrectly and using barbaric Laws to suppress Islam e Ahmadiyyat and their followers.
Lets for a minute close our eyes and think that Allah has created this world for everyone regardless of their race, religion and cast. Lets be humans once and think about the policy live and let live.
I'll not comment on your post in length,
Just to give u a brief, they do every thing according to Islam but they believe in the Prophet-hood of Mriza Ghulam Ahmed Qadyan, this makes them non-muslim.
It is like, a hindu can recite quran all day, he can offer prayers all day, he can fast with muslims, he can do all other tasks.. but no one will call him a muslim, unless he believes in the Oneness of Allah and believes that the Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) is the last prophet, and their will be no prophet after him.
And let me correct u,
Allah have created all human equal and given them the ways under which they can live their lives, now that way of Life is clearly mentioned in Quran and hadees, anything against or contradicting it shall be considered path of Evil and not Allah.
So close ur eyes and see if you are on the right path or not? if your next live is going to be in peace or not?
RasoolAllah did indeed spare many munkir like Abdullah bin Obey. But that was what separates him from his Ummati.
Unlike Ahmedies we believe in the finality of Muhammad Rasoolallah. We are not like you, we know we can never be like Rasoolallah. The only thing that can save Ahmedi's is if Rasoolallah himself or any of his ahle bayt order us to stop killing Ahmedies.
We are not nabi's we cannot show forgiveness. We are mere foot soldiers who hold no power, we follow Rasoolallahs and his khalifas and the Ahle Bayt. Anyway according to Islamic teaching a man who insults Allah can be spared, if he repents. That is becuase it was not exactly a crime we can sort out. It's up to Allah on this matter.
However to Insult Rasoolallah is not just a crime against Allah it is also a crime against the followers. like a crimanl can claim forgiveness for murder, Allah might forgive him but the Law requires him to be put to death. By slandering the prophet a munkir who reads kalima has lost his right to be called a muslim but furthermore he has broken a law punishable by death. Why read the kallima if you don't believe it.
As for munkir's namaaza Musailama and co also read namaaz, were they spared? No forty thousand of his followers were massacred in a day. What made the riddah wars so bloody was in the words of Abu bakr:
"Up till now we have fought munkir of Allah, we have been defending ourselves from thier attacks becuase that is what rasoolallah told us to do.
Our nabi has left us now, and his enemies march upon us while we sit here.
Oh veterans of Badr hear me! what use is sitting here if they can insult our lord. Today we shall not wait for them to come for us, we shall march to them and fight an agressive war the likes of which has never been seen in the Hejaz!
Let us shows these munkirs and those who follow them that we shall show no mercy to anyone who speaks against the one we love! Today they slander the man who has spared them so long. We will not spare one of them!
Abu Bakr acted with full authority and clamped down on the apostates. It doesn't matter that they spoke arabic and read namaaz becuase even if they hid in the kabbah they would not be spared from the swords of fury.
In that time the Sahaba showed no objections so we as Muslims must show no mercy to the Ahmedies and Wahabi's.
Ahmedies should renounce thier treachery. It would not be so bad for them if they were worshiping any false god. Trouble with these apostates is that they have betrayed Rasoolallah and his deen by speaking against him while claiming to be part of it. Any religion would destroy the traitors within its ranks otherwise it's power is reduced.
So no suprise Ahmedies are treated like this.
Besides why did they have to start this new religion anyway?
We all know it was to undermine Islam from within.
I'm sorry at any loss of life, but at least we have Rasoolallah to pray for us and save us from Allah's wrath when we soak the earth with apostate blood. Tell me by betraying him who will save the Ahmedies....... Mirza?
I could have actually answered you pretty harshly...for the moment I am just point out some parts of your post to Moderator.
This is not a Tabligh thread and you are taking it to wrong direction. I only made a reply because Hanibal started off.
Please stay on the topic...If you are really interested in how Government declared Ahmadies non Muslims then ask Pakistani Government to Publish the white paper....(the proceedings of the case) Guarenteed Aadha Pakistan Ahmadi ho jaaye ga...baaki ka aadha Faris or Hanibal jese logon se bhara hua hai....lolz (BTW it's not a personal attack, I am debating in a very sencible and gentle manner)
Ahmedies are kaafir. full stop.
I could have actually answered you pretty harshly...for the moment I am just point out some parts of your post to Moderator.
This is not a Tabligh thread and you are taking it to wrong direction. I only made a reply because Hanibal started off.
Please stay on the topic...If you are really interested in how Government declared Ahmadies non Muslims then ask Pakistani Government to Publish the white paper....(the proceedings of the case) Guarenteed Aadha Pakistan Ahmadi ho jaaye ga...baaki ka aadha Faris or Hanibal jese logon se bhara hua hai....lolz (BTW it's not a personal attack, I am debating in a very sencible and gentle manner)
If you put ur books on internet, i.e. revelations of Mirza Ghulam Ahmed Qadyan, then it is garanteed that 80% qadyanies will convert to Islam and remaing 20% which is ur kind can stay as they are.. lolz it was not personal remarks..
And like you said u answered me... please point out my questions and you answers in this thread... i am use to this qadyani tactic that, they never ever answer a question yet start another issue.. being a qadyani you are following the same suite.
Infact if i recall it right.. Mirza Ghulam Ahmed, in one of his "Great"debate said to the opponent, that, if he is wrong/liar/imposter he shouid die with the dysentry or alike disease .. now would you mind telling me how Mirza Ghulam Ahmed Died?
I'll not comment on your post in length,
Just to give u a brief, they do every thing according to Islam but they believe in the Prophet-hood of Mriza Ghulam Ahmed Qadyan, this makes them non-muslim.
Jazakallah .... at least you agree to this... Bascially the only issue left is believing a new Prophet right...come on yaar...isse aapke jazbaat kese mazroo hote hian...tell me....
dekho kia meri aapse koi dushmani hai...kia mene aapko koi nuqsaan pohnchaaya hai...mien to aapko jaanta bhi nahin...phir aakhir kyoon aapke dil mien mere lyye itni nafrat hai...iss lyye ke mein Ahmadi hoon?
kia agar mien kehta ke mien Sunni hoon to kia phir bhi aap mere baare mien yehi soch rakhte....kia aap mujhe ya sab Ahmadion ko aik INSAAN nahin samjh sakte..
Hindu log shirk karte hian...kia aapke jazbaat isse majroo hote hian... Shia or Ismaili kogon ka apna hi dhang hai ibaadat ka...kia aapke jazbaat isse majroo hote hian.... App Shia ko non-muslim iss lyye nahin kehte kyoon ke wo to aapka khoon pee jaayien gai agar unke saamne esi baat karo gai...Ahmadi kia kahe ga....Allah ki marzi...?
I just want to say that you have so much hatred for Ahmadies that jahan bhi koi zikr ho aapse opposition ke siva kuch nahin hota....
I think that Ahmadi aapko persoanlly koi nuqsaan nahin ppohnchaa rahe...to aapko bhi thora masaavi sulook karna chahyye.
raha sawaal in 15 ahmadion ka to 5 bache 2 maah pehle arrest hue they...unki koi kher khabar nahin....issi maheene 2 miaan BV Dr ka brutal murder hua.....kuch to mozammat aapki taraf se honi chahyye insaaf ka takaaza to yehi kehta hai.
If you put ur books on internet, i.e. revelations of Mirza Ghulam Ahmed Qadyan, then it is garanteed that 80% qadyanies will convert to Islam and remaing 20% which is ur kind can stay as they are.. lolz it was not personal remarks..
And like you said u answered me... please point out my questions and you answers in this thread... i am use to this qadyani tactic that, they never ever answer a question yet start another issue.. being a qadyani you are following the same suite.
Infact if i recall it right.. Mirza Ghulam Ahmed, in one of his "Great"debate said to the opponent, that, if he is wrong/liar/imposter he shouid die with the dysentry or alike disease .. now would you mind telling me how Mirza Ghulam Ahmed Died?
You are deviating from the topic...please stay on the topic...if you want to discuss soemthing else then please open a new thread.
You are deviating from the topic...please stay on the topic...if you want to discuss soemthing else then please open a new thread.
to stay on topic, please refrain from other remarks and answer the questions...
Jazakallah .... at least you agree to this... Bascially the only issue left is believing a new Prophet right...come on yaar...isse aapke jazbaat kese mazroo hote hian...tell me....
dekho kia meri aapse koi dushmani hai...kia mene aapko koi nuqsaan pohnchaaya hai...mien to aapko jaanta bhi nahin...phir aakhir kyoon aapke dil mien mere lyye itni nafrat hai...iss lyye ke mein Ahmadi hoon?
kia agar mien kehta ke mien Sunni hoon to kia phir bhi aap mere baare mien yehi soch rakhte....kia aap mujhe ya sab Ahmadion ko aik INSAAN nahin samjh sakte..
Hindu log shirk karte hian...kia aapke jazbaat isse majroo hote hian... Shia or Ismaili kogon ka apna hi dhang hai ibaadat ka...kia aapke jazbaat isse majroo hote hian.... App Shia ko non-muslim iss lyye nahin kehte kyoon ke wo to aapka khoon pee jaayien gai agar unke saamne esi baat karo gai...Ahmadi kia kahe ga....Allah ki marzi...?
I just want to say that you have so much hatred for Ahmadies that jahan bhi koi zikr ho aapse opposition ke siva kuch nahin hota....
I think that Ahmadi aapko persoanlly koi nuqsaan nahin ppohnchaa rahe...to aapko bhi thora masaavi sulook karna chahyye.
raha sawaal in 15 ahmadion ka to 5 bache 2 maah pehle arrest hue they...unki koi kher khabar nahin....issi maheene 2 miaan BV Dr ka brutal murder hua.....kuch to mozammat aapki taraf se honi chahyye insaaf ka takaaza to yehi kehta hai.
Bhai app 10 dosray prophets per bhi believe karo, hamaray jazbaat ko koy farq nahi paRta.. just DONOT PORTRAY URSELVES AS MUSLIMS... thats the issue, thats the reason Ahmadies are not allowed to have place of worship resembling the mosque. End of story..
You can believe what ever you want to believe, i have no problem there.. but don't decieve others.. thats the point
Bhai app 10 dosray prophets per bhi believe karo, hamaray jazbaat ko koy farq nahi paRta.. just DONOT PORTRAY URSELVES AS MUSLIMS... thats the issue, thats the reason Ahmadies are not allowed to have place of worship resembling the mosque. End of story..
You can believe what ever you want to believe, i have no problem there.. but don't decieve others.. thats the point
Usually at Ahmadi Mosques..it is clearly mentioned Ahmadiyya Muslim Community or Jamaat e Ahmadiyya Masjid...not sure if there are few exceptions...expecially in Pakistan.
Ibaadat gah Masjid ho ya Church it is a place of worship.... Khuda ka khoff karo...kia khuda tumse Qiayamt ke din pooche ga ke toone Ahmadi Masjid mien namaaz kyoon parhi?....yahan UK mien to Musalmaan weekend pe jahan Masjid na hon Church hire karke wahan namaaz parh lete hian...
mera khyaal hai ke aap fazool behes mien parr rahe ho...aapko apni raaye ka haq hai...or mujhe meri...mere khyaal mien iss mien koi mozaika nahin ke aik shaks 5 waqt ki namaaz parhne jaaye or sabb Musalmaan uss ibaadat gah ko masjid kahien or aik ko single out kar ke kaha jaaye ka nahin janaab ye Masjod nahhin hai...
kia aap Shia or Ismaelion ki ibaadat gah ko bhi Masjod kehne se roko gai
(BTW I have nothing against Shia and Ismaili...its just that I am using them to take my point accross so please dont get offended).
I think Hanibal we are narrowing down our discussion...I like the progress...we are still on the topic.
What about the koranic verse where Allah forbid Rasoolallah from going to a munafiq masjid?
i cannot remember the exact verse as i’m not a hafiz or mulla, but i know it exhists becuase i’ve come across it before. Perhaps another brother can eleborate it for you. Now how can we accept that your masjid is justified if Allah forbade his rasool from attending a munafiq gathering?
As a sunni i cannot go where my nabi was himself forbiden to do so (aka haraam)
Hope this isn’t off topic as well?
As for why we pick on Ahmadies, well put it simply even if you don’t harm me in any way, by slandering my prophet you’ve commitied a crime tantamount to a declaration of war. I’m not just saying that it’s in the koran as well! So it’s my religous duty to oppose Ahmedies just like Jihad is a religous duty.
Now if you tell me you do not accept the koran then please tell me why you Ahmedies still call yourselves Muslim???
Furthermore as my Pir Murshid put it, it’s not the actions of a person that define his faith (i.e Ammaal) it is the belief within, (i.e. Aqeeda) if your belief is flawed then no matter how pious you behave you are not true Muslim!
So coming back to the point, if Ahmedies come out and say that they are an offshoot cult (which they are) and follow a misguided man who was not a Muslim himself (Mirza) then i can say with confidence that they will not be so persecuted.
However Ahmedies stubbornly cling to offensive beliefs, did you know Mirza wrote more lies than anyone since Judas. He not only calimed to be a (false) prophet, he also called himself Imam Mehdi, the Messiah, Jesus… and if he hadn’t insulted enough people with those comments he went on to claim Mughal titular-ship (OK maybe he was a Mughal nobleman 
) but he also claimed to be Miriam/Mariam aka Mary mother of Jesus!
Now tell me you don’t believe all that do you? If Ahmedies stubbornly cling to this cult leaders dellirious beliefs and respect his written words then can you blame Muslims and others for out and out hatred towards the Ahmediyah?
Now seriously i’m enjoying this debate, sorry for any personal attacks i may have launched. I’m from a millitralistic background so i might not be as “civilised” as you but thats no reason to ignore me. Infact my fanatical viewpoints might help you understand why Ahmedies get so much stick?
Usually at Ahmadi Mosques..it is clearly mentioned Ahmadiyya Muslim Community or Jamaat e Ahmadiyya Masjid...not sure if there are few exceptions...expecially in Pakistan.
Ibaadat gah Masjid ho ya Church it is a place of worship.... Khuda ka khoff karo...kia khuda tumse Qiayamt ke din pooche ga ke toone Ahmadi Masjid mien namaaz kyoon parhi?....yahan UK mien to Musalmaan weekend pe jahan Masjid na hon Church hire karke wahan namaaz parh lete hian...
mera khyaal hai ke aap fazool behes mien parr rahe ho...aapko apni raaye ka haq hai...or mujhe meri...mere khyaal mien iss mien koi mozaika nahin ke aik shaks 5 waqt ki namaaz parhne jaaye or sabb Musalmaan uss ibaadat gah ko masjid kahien or aik ko single out kar ke kaha jaaye ka nahin janaab ye Masjod nahhin hai...
kia aap Shia or Ismaelion ki ibaadat gah ko bhi Masjod kehne se roko gai
(BTW I have nothing against Shia and Ismaili...its just that I am using them to take my point accross so please dont get offended).
I think Hanibal we are narrowing down our discussion...I like the progress...we are still on the topic.
Oh bhai, topic divert mat karo.. phir maiN kuch poch looN ga to app kehtay nazr ayaiN gay topic per raho
Bhai agr app nay reply paRhnay key zehmat key hoti tu app yeh zaroor dekh saktay thay kay maiN nay kiya baat key aur uss key roshni maiN app kay reply key kiya worth hay...
I know kay this is part of your strategy to just go for non-issues and not to talk on issues, i urge to go back see what iam saying..
I still say, i have no problems with Ahmadies, they are just another group of people which follow a particular religion which is called Ahmdiyat... The Problem is, WHEN THESE AHMADIES PORTRAY THEMSELVES as muslims... which ofcourse they are not.
Ahmadi enjoy the religious freedom an other rights to which i pointed out in my early reply to this thread...
No body is prosecuting them for believing in Mirza Ghulam Ahmed, they get prosecuted for portraying themselves as muslims, It was in practice that these Ahmadies, use to portray themselves as cult of Islam and make relationship with Muslim familes and get their sons married with the daughters of the muslim families...
You have right not to believe them & you also have right to teach people about what is a right path (according to your beliefs), but you cannot persecute another group for their beliefs. If they think they're muslims its their right. Why should they be persecuted for that?
Please click here
http://www.paklinks.com/gs/6413467-post69.html
I have written something in CAPS… thats the issue.
Why do you protray your self as human…aaj 100 bande uth ke kharre ho jaaien or kahien tum insaan nahin to kia aap insaan banana chorr do gai..
kal koi uth ke khara ho pr aapko kahe ke kapre pehnana chorr do…ya shalwar kameez pehnana chorr do becasue this is only for Pakistanis living in Pakistan to kia aap Shalwar kameez pehnana chorr do gai..
kal aap uth ke mujhe kaho gai namaaz parhna chorr do…Quran parhna chorr do…to aapke or Faris ke kehne pe mien Quran or Namaaz chorr doon?
Aapki claim ke if I dont protray my self as Muslim then persecution will over…to isske jawaab agar mien aapko kahoon ke aap apne aap ko Muslmaan na kaho mien 1000 rupaya doon ga or maroon ga bhi nahin to kia aap apna deen imaan bech do gai…
dekho this is a very sensitive issue…I have a faith…I practice it…dont procecute me for my faith…you will be answerable for this at the day of Judgment as for every deed you do.
Now if you tell me you do not accept the koran then please tell me why you Ahmedies still call yourselves Muslim!??????
yaar abhi to aapko hanibal sb nien bataaya hai ke we "do everything according to ISLAM"...
to I guess aapke iss etraaz ka jawaab to Hanibal sb nien nahaayet hi khoobsoorat tareeke se pesh kar dia hai.
(BTW Faris sb aap discussion mien bohat doooor nikal jaate hian...kareeb kareeb hi raha keejyye...)
Re: 15 Ahmadis arrested for gathering in a building resembling a mosque
Just out of curiosity................If an Ahmadi says that Mirza Gulam Ahmed was a liar but believes in other aspects of Ahmadi teachings, Will he still be considered an Ahmadi ?
I confess I know very little about this subject and this queston is only for my information.
Just out of curiosity................If an Ahmadi says that Mirza Gulam Ahmed was a liar but believes in other aspects of Ahmadi teachings, Will he still be considered an Ahmadi ?
I confess I know very little about this subject and this queston is only for my information.
(A VERY OFF TOPIC QUESTION: Mod please bare with me for this one, I will only keep it short and Hanibal and Faris dont worry we dont have to discuss on this.)
well...this is a good question...simple answer would be no. As you are actually denying the person who originated the sect or the particular belief.
A little more detail would be; Someone comes and claim that he is the same Masih and Mahdi as prophesized by Hadhrat Muhammad Mustapha SAW and gathers some followers who give their sect a name to differentiate from others. A person comes along and say that sorry mate I dont like you to be the Messiah but I do like your sect, can I be part of it?.....I hope you get the logic.
(A VERY OFF TOPIC QUESTION: Mod please bare with me for this one, I will only keep it short and Hanibal and Faris dont worry we dont have to discuss on this.)
well...this is a good question...simple answer would be no. As you are actually denying the person who originated the sect or the particular belief.
A little more detail would be; Someone comes and claim that he is the same Masih and Mahdi as prophesized by Hadhrat Muhammad Mustapha SAW and gathers some followers who give their sect a name to differentiate from others. A person comes along and say that sorry mate I dont like you to be the Messiah but I do like your sect, can I be part of it?.....I hope you get the logic.
I did realise for the off topic question and thanks Mode............Ya it sounds logical.
I guess with the same logic Muslims cannot accept anyone calling themselves Muslim when the corner stone of Islam is Khatm e Nabowat.
There are too few details available here of those 15 individuals for us to have a fruitful discussion. It is obvious that my opinion is biased but there are points here on both sides that are valid. In the absence of a proper system in place with law enforcement that no one can question these actions will always leave more questions then answers.
Well if they say Mirza was i liar then i have no problem with that.
Technically they are not Ahmedis then? Therefore i can see them as acting wisely and accepting the truth.
Ahmedies however believe Mirza is a prophet, thats the problem!
If they don't believe in Mirza then they are not Ahmedi, simple, the name ahmedi is a delibarate invention to mislead decent Muslims and lull them into acepting the Mirzai faith.
Now as for reading the Koran, reading it is one thing, acting on what it tells you is another.
Read my post properly! youve quoted it wrongly, the point i made was that Rasoolallah had been told in a Koranic verse not to attend a munafiq "Masjid". The fact that rasoolallah did not go proves he did approve of the munafiqs, so according to the koran which stated that this Masjid be destroyed (which it was). Now if you guys truly read the Koran you too will see that there is no mercy for munafiqs.
So why then one side you say that you do as we do, yet immediately on close scrutiny you actually deviate from all the correct manners in Islam?
I have not many Issues with Shia's, in fact i believe Shia / Suni unity can be acheived, i even despise the Wahabi's but i have a greater what you might call hatred enemity with Ahmedi's becuase they make a mockery of Islam's most important aspects and hide beneath a cloak of Islamic ideas.
Finally please can any Ahmedi tell me why thier faith came about after 1857's war of Independance? Did the British pay Mirza to keep brave Muslims from overthrowing thier precious and hard fought empire. Technically the Ahmedi's are and have always been on the Kaafir payroll. It's not my place to impose loyalty on you but if Islam wasn't such a nice faith i imagine under the heel of others the Ahmedi cult would have been obliterated.
The day i see an Ahmedi contribute something good for Islam then i will be surprised but name one Ahmedi that did not betray his co-religionists, brothers, countrymen or even king and country.
Now in the light of these facts is it any wonder your "poor" fellow cult followers are massacred. Now i'll admit i've adopted a hardline against Ahmedi's, and ultimately killing or persucuting others is wrong.
However you cannot deny the atrocieties commited by your fellow Ahmedis who secretly hold powerfull and influential positions. Let me tell you as aformer soldier, back in the Army the most relentless trainers i ever knew were Ahmedi. I did not know thy were at first, but they constantly pushed men to extremes as if they wanted them dead. Only when i got my commision did i find out they were Ahmedi/Mirzais.
Hell even parts of my family converted to that faith when they came to Britian, it helped them with employment. Basically the image i have at first hand is that Ahmedi's are arrogant and ignorant rich people. By converting to Mirzai cult they practically sell themselves to western serfdom.
With so many wrongs among them and no good deeds tell me if i'm wrong. Maybe i am but Mirzai's only feed my hatred by thier actions.