14 Hajj pilgrims trampled to death

Society Religion & Philosophy
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Every year there seems to be some who die, no?

MINA, Saudi Arabia (AP) – Fourteen pilgrims were trampled to death Tuesday when some worshippers tripped amid a jostling crowd during a ritual of the annual Muslim pilgrimage in which the faithful throw stones at pillars representing the devil’s temptatio

Some pilgrims fell and were killed by the crush of people around them.

“A lot of overcrowding took place, some of them fell on the ground, which lead to the death of 14 pilgrims,” bin Said said.

Three Indians, four Pakistanis, two Egyptians, an Iranian and a Yemeni were among the dead. The other three had not yet been identified.

http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/02/11/hajj.pilgrims.ap/index.html

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yeah its a shame. It is a capacity as well as a crowd control issue. The biggest challenge is that the crowd is so packed that how you move and where you move can be very tricky and limited.

The govt there tried to solve crowding issue by expanding facilities and even limiting the locals to attend once every 5 years I believe but it becomes a problem anyways.

having spent some time in saudi arabia, i had the opportunity to go for hajj and umra several times my dad knew the best times that the crowds will be lesser than at other times of the day but still then for the stone throwing, aside from maybe oen time, he did not take anyone from teh family. His view was let me go do this on behalf of everyone (it is allowed) and not be worried about how you guys are dealing with the crowd.

At one time at a diff place we did get in a situation where myself, my dad, my mon and my bro all fell because one peron fell and due to teh crowd it was a bit of a domino effect. Luckily for us we got out with just some sprains and bruises. probably among the scarier expereinces of my life.

There are some other reasons as well including how some ppl go about going through some of teh rituals. a problem caused by a handful of ppl can get out of hand due to teh sheer size and movement of teh packed crowd.

the stones are not really an issue, because they are supposed to be pea sized pebbles.

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May Allah have mercy on the souls and give patience & peace to their loved ones behind.

4

That's God's punishment. u follow pagan rituals.. u suffer.

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May Allah shower them with His mercy and reward them abundantly.

{If aught that is good befalls you, it grieves them; but if some misfortune overtakes you, they rejoice at it. But if you are constant and do right, not the least harm will their cunning do to you; for surely Allah comprehends what they do.} (3:120)

Iqbal

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Its really sad, I wonder does dying in pilgrimage give you shahadah/martyrdome?

PA: Another thing is how is it a pagan ritual? I mean whats wrong with it?

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by CocoNut: *
PA: Another thing is how is it a pagan ritual? I mean whats wrong with it?
[/QUOTE]

what's wrong?? 14 people died and we still need to know what's wrong?

tell me where Allah commanded us to do such nonsense??

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by PakistaniAbroad: *

what's wrong?? 14 people died and we still need to know what's wrong?

tell me where Allah commanded us to do such nonsense??
[/QUOTE]

I wish I could tell you but I'm not one to search copy paste. Its a very well embedded part of pilgrimage just like going to the Mountains Safa and Marwa. I really don't understand why you would completely ignore the fact that so many do it.

Speaking of which I wonder if Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) did this (the stone throwing at pillars). For me I've seen it done and heard the story of Abraham.

Death at that location happens almost every year, people die from hoards, heat, living in tents

What about the significance of Abraham and Ishmael throwing stones at the devil? I mean surely billions of people aren't just going into ignorance or are they?

I maybe wrong, dunno, still learning the ropes : )

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Well, that’s 14 less terrorists to worry about. You gotta look at the bright side.

Hajj is the stupidest ritual ever in its current form. It wasn’t meant to be like this. It was meant to be an exercise in humility and persistence and hardship. During the time of the early Khulafas, pilgrims came on foot from as far as present day Libya in sweltering heat with very little food to subsist and many died along the way. That was Hajj. What you have today is a show of wealth and money and status, and more of a desire to show-off to one’s neighbors and relatives. I think Hajj can be better performed watching some good PBS documentary and giving all the money one would spend in Mecca to poor people.

Hajji NYA Il Habibi wal Maktool

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by CocoNut: *
Its a very well embedded part of pilgrimage just like going to the Mountains Safa and Marwa. I really don't understand why you would completely ignore the fact that so many do it.
[/quote]

Coco, please get one thing straight.. just the fact that a lot of people do something doesn't make it right.

The Pilgrimage was a well known pre-Islamic event.

Running between Safa and Marva has been "pardoned" by Allah and no sin is on those who do it. Note the way it was 'allowed' and not demanded by the Lord.

There is absolutely no mention in the Qur'an of the old paganistic ritual of throwing pebbles at some stone structures.. the ritual reeks of paganism and jahilliyat of the days when sticks, stones and trees were venerated and used in acts of worship.

[quote]
Speaking of which I wonder if Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) did this (the stone throwing at pillars). For me I've seen it done and heard the story of Abraham. What about the significance of Abraham and Ishmael throwing stones at the devil? I mean surely billions of people aren't just going into ignorance or are they?

[/quote]

There you see, deriving a ritual from folklore... if the Hajj was established by Prophet Muhammad for Allah Alone, then how come rituals in it commemorate supposed acts of earlier prophets? Where is the account of Abraham throwing pebbles.. probably in hadith books and therefore possibly in stories of Jewish origin.

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Inalillahewainnailaihirajioon...They died in the best of places and in the best of states...Lucky they were to have died there in a state of ehram...Allah Taala accept their nyaa and grant them straight access to paradise...Ameen...

12

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by PakistaniAbroad: *
Coco, please get one thing straight.. just the fact that a lot of people do something doesn't make it right.

The Pilgrimage was a well known pre-Islamic event.

Running between Safa and Marva has been "pardoned" by Allah and no sin is on those who do it. Note the way it was 'allowed' and not demanded by the Lord.

There is absolutely no mention in the Qur'an of the old paganistic ritual of throwing pebbles at some stone structures.. the ritual reeks of paganism and jahilliyat of the days when sticks, stones and trees were venerated and used in acts of worship.

There you see, deriving a ritual from folklore... if the Hajj was established by Prophet Muhammad for Allah Alone, then how come rituals in it commemorate supposed acts of earlier prophets? Where is the account of Abraham throwing pebbles.. probably in hadith books and therefore possibly in stories of Jewish origin.
[/QUOTE]

I know, I know just cuz majority does it doesn't make it right. Well aware of that; thats y i'm asking. : )

pilgrimage pre-Islamic event? really? to where? the wall or the mosque before Qibla?

Ok, so how come this act of throwing stones wasn't pardoned if act of running between safa and marwa was by (forgot her name). If its jahiliyat then how come its not stopped by the people who strongly believe it has nothing to do with religion rather its bid'a. I mean with laws enforced in Arabia surely they can do something no?

Wait, are you telling the whole story of Abraham and Ishmael stoning the devil at three places was a folklore? I suppose, the rituals are commemorate the earlier Prophets to show due credit cuz in that lies Allah's blessings doing as what the Prophets did and we learn from the mistakes and they're way of life (sunnah?) Islam was built on prior religions i.e. judaisim christianity...why would it not take prior acts into account instead of disregarding the whole teaching/lifestyle of it?

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PA whatever your views are about rajam, the crowd situation is really bad there. when we had fallen it was not one of those places but friday prayers at the mosque, while we were walking out, a large group, of i assume sudanese or nigerians just stormed in even though the guards told them to go away. th e entire walkway was clear but many ppl behind us who were also getting out since the mosque was full and the guards were leading the exdcess ppl out..this crowd that entered did nto care, pushed, bumped and forced their way through the crowd being led out, and before you know it..ppl were falling..no deaths but some ppl were carried away.

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by CocoNut: *
pilgrimage pre-Islamic event? really? to where? the wall or the mosque before Qibla?
[/quote]

Yes.. it was a gathering around the Ka'aba, which then housed the may idols which the pagans of the time worshipped, complete with animal sacrifices, the running and stoning and all.

[quote]
Ok, so how come this act of throwing stones wasn't pardoned if act of running between safa and marwa was by (forgot her name).
[/quote]

We know as much as the Qur'an tells us. Allah mentions the running and let's people know there is no sin on those who keep doing it. Nothing of the sort came for the practice of stoning.

[quote]
Wait, are you telling the whole story of Abraham and Ishmael stoning the devil at three places was a folklore?
[/quote]

I didn't hear of it in the Qur'an, so I will file it under a dubious historical account wherever it's mentioned.

[quote]
I suppose, the rituals are commemorate the earlier Prophets to show due credit cuz in that lies Allah's blessings doing as what the Prophets did and we learn from the mistakes and they're way of life (sunnah?) Islam was built on prior religions i.e. judaisim christianity...why would it not take prior acts into account instead of disregarding the whole teaching/lifestyle of it?
[/QUOTE]

You know yourself that's not the case. The 'rituals' we are talking about were pagan rituals. Allah sent the Qur'an to an 'ummi' nation, the ones who did not have any scripture before.. so how could they be practicing any prophet's sunnah?

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inna lillahae wa inna ilaihae rajayoon

thats really sad :teary1:

:flower1:

can’t the saudi govt do something abt this…? :frowning: coz it happens every yr :frowning:

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PA, I think we all know about the tawaaf of kaa'ba being done before Islams albeit in a different manner and form but rajam being a pagan ritual is really a first for me.

Disregarding the fact that it is right or wrong, I have a question for you. How do you think we (muslims as a whole) would be succesfully able to question such basic deep-rooted practices of Islam and practically incorporate any changes in the modern day religion?

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by PakistaniAbroad: *

what's wrong?? 14 people died and we still need to know what's wrong?
[/QUOTE]

A quite bizarre yardstick for judging whether something is right or wrong!

[quote]
There is absolutely no mention in the Qur'an of the old paganistic ritual of throwing pebbles at some stone structures..
[/quote]

But it does ask us to take Allah's Messenger (s) as our example. Oh, and by the way, does this sound familiar...

"We are not here to monitor each other's rituals. Let's take care of ourselves."

I wonder who said that PA??

[quote]
I didn't hear of it in the Qur'an, so I will file it under a dubious historical account wherever it's mentioned.
[/quote]

You yourself have previously implied that the Qur'an is nothing more than an opinion of early scholars for which you have no hard evidence concerning its Divine nature. You can't prove the Qur'an just as you insist others can't prove hadith (from which the stoning rites are drawn). So on exactly what basis are you pointing the finger at others?

Iqbal

18

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Scratch: *
Disregarding the fact that it is right or wrong, I have a question for you. How do you think we (muslims as a whole) would be succesfully able to question such basic deep-rooted practices of Islam and practically incorporate any changes in the modern day religion?
[/QUOTE]

First and foremost we have to go back to the Qur'an.. the Prophet's only complain against us as an ummah on Judgement Day would be that we deserted the Qur'an, not his Sunnah, but the Qur'an.

Next we need to develop the strength in our faith to question it. There is this latent fear and insecurity amongst Muslims to question their religion. They only set out to explain it or apologize for it, rather than scrutinize it.

Iqbal:

[quote]
But it does ask us to take Allah's Messenger (s) as our example.
[/quote]

Ahh some of the worst abused verses in the Qur'an.. The 'example' the Prophet set was of monotheism, just like we are to take Abraham as an example. Does not mean we are now to go dig up jewish traditions and stories and declare them his prophetic teachings. We are just to become Muslims following the example set by these Noble prophets of rejecting polytheism.

[quote]

Oh, and by the way, does this sound familiar...

"We are not here to monitor each other's rituals. Let's take care of ourselves."

I wonder who said that PA??
[/quote]

Iqbal, seriously these cheap digs don't befit you.. I expect better. I'm not 'monitoring' anyone's rituals.. i'm trying to tell everyone that it's not necessary to invent or keep clinging to pre-Islamic ones. Everyone is still welcome to go throw stones and get trampled on.. I just don't want it made a mandatory part of Hajj or be part of the 'official' face of Islam as is the case today.

[quote]
You yourself have previously implied that the Qur'an is nothing more than an opinion of early scholars for which you have no hard evidence concerning its Divine nature. You can't prove the Qur'an just as you insist others can't prove hadith (from which the stoning rites are drawn). So on exactly what basis are you pointing the finger at others?
[/quote]

Time and again you try to equate the Hadiths with the Qur'an.

My complaint with Hadith is not that it can't be proven to be divine revelation, it's the method employed to declare it 'correct' or 'authentic' or coming from a particular source and hence the contradictory texts that casts serious doubts on it's authenticity and relation to the religion.

You know and I know that the collection of Qur'an was done much earlier in more favorable environments and maybe that's why today all sects have at least the Qur'an as the common denominator and the Qur'an itself tells us we need no other document in it's support.

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thinking of that stone as the ‘devil’…isn’t that actually a form of idol-‘worship’?

of course not exactly worshipping the devil, but the fact that u think of a stone structure as being something abstract in reality is a form idoltry, right? :confused:

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Here, you are supposed to think about prophet Ibrahim(pbuh) and his Son Prophet Ismail(pbuh). You are supposed to think ‘how hard it was for a father to sacrifice his Son’. And when you throw stones, remember all the devils that tempt you in this life and if you are not committed to kill this shaitan then it will take you with him in Akhira.