You forgot, but it still happened.
In a few days we’ll remember a bomb twice as strong…till then, adieu
usa is the biggest munafik on the face of this earth. they r quick to jump on the bandwagon and impose sactions against countries who have a nuclear weapons programme but; it itself has a nucler weapons programme which; it won't dismantle, bush just reiterates time and time again that; oh it's for the defence of our land. so, other countires can't develop nuclear weapons to defend their land in a case of emergency? they have to bow down to us pressure????
Japan owes the US 2 nuclear bombs in return i am sure one day they will get there revenge!
Exactly the reason why all muslim countries should get nuclear asap.
The US is definetly the biggest munafik you cant trust them one bit.
If we start lobbing nuclear bombs back and forth, the world as we know it, will come to an end pretty quickly.
America's stand on nuclear weaponary is very hypocratic. No denying that. IMV, the genie is out of the bottle (been out since second world war) so its futile to try to put it back or to brow beat people to stop work on nuclear weapons, especially when US herself is unwilling to take the lead and infact is sitting on the largest stockpiles of nuclear weapons in the world. As we all know, and as this article points out, US is going the other direction to make more "usable" nuclear weapons.
End result, it is going to be a free for all.
Japan's repeated stance to work for nuclear disarmament, while noble, should start from their own protector - the US of A. In any case, I don't think this is a realisitic aim, any more.
For those of you without a command of history, or a convenient loss of memory, perhaps a refresher on Imperial Japan is in order. According to the best research avalable Imperial Japan was probably responsible for the murders of about 5.9 MILLION people. These were not soldiers lost in a war, these were slaughtered civilians. Please reference the folowing table:
and a discussion of how the table was derived:
“From the invasion of China in 1937 to the end of World War II, the Japanese military regime murdered near 3,000,000 to over 10,000,000 people, most probably almost 6,000,000 Chinese, Indonesians, Koreans, Filipinos, and Indochinese, among others, including Western prisoners of war. This democide was due to a morally bankrupt political and military strategy, military expediency and custom, and national culture (such as the view that those enemy soldiers who surrender while still able to resist were criminals).
Table 3.1 presents the sources, estimates, and calculations on Japanese democide in World War II. There is one major omission, however. Democide in China during the Sino-Japanese War that begun in 1937, and merged with WWII in December 1941, is excluded. This democide has been separately calculated in Rummel (1994), and only the total derived there is given in the table (line 386) in calculating the overall democide.”
STATISTICS OF JAPANESE GENOCIDE AND MASS MURDER
How ironic that the action which ENDS war is remembered more than much more horrific occurances DURING the war.
dont forget to add:
the above statistics are controversial. extracting ‘memory’ from this research that has a high likelihood of being completely offkilter. they are essentially one man’s guesses that are not corroborated by other independent research and researchers.
but i guess mentioning this would sorta dilute your point..
I dont think there's any emphasis on portraying Japan as a victim here, the Japanese have never in their history claimed innocence and even now see themselves as a living example of an ecosystem ravaged by nuclear arms. The Japanese surely killed large amounts of innocent people, but nothing they did had such a great impact on so many people and such a vast region. The emphasis instead is on the power nukes dispense and the need to control if not disarm them.
If JApan had nuclear weapons would US cowardly attack it killing god knows how many hundreds of thousands. The Answer would have been NO!
Point and Case has been made!
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Ohioguy: *
For those of you without a command of history, or a convenient loss of memory, perhaps a refresher on Imperial Japan is in order. According to the best research avalable Imperial Japan was probably responsible for the murders of about 5.9 MILLION people.
[/QUOTE]
Ohioguy,
Help me understand. So in your view, the best defence for all of the atrocities committed by USA around the world, including killing of hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians, can be justified by claims that the previous regime was somehow even more brutal? As if that would make the mass killings by US more palatable, or may be even righteous and noble, by your standards.
Just as the US entered Iraq on the pretext of finding and removing WMD and later when no WMD's were found, the story was changed to 'brutal dictator'. Are you now suggesting that US nuked Hiroshima and Nagasaki because the imperial Japan killed its own people and you wanted to remove the King of Japan from power? If that is not the case, then whats your point?
revisionism.
Faisal,
Atrocities?
My point is that the US did not plunge into war with Japan. We were not anxious to go fight the Nazi’s. Had it not been for an attack on Pearl Harbor we may never have entered the war against Japan. But today’s children have no comprehension of atrocities. They have no depth of understanding how utterly brutal regimes have been in the course of history. The numbers and scope and scale are completely beyond their understanding. They know that the US exploded two nuclear bombs, but they have no idea of the ferocity and ruthless nature of the Japanese army. If the US had to invade, or blockade mainland Japan, the civilian and military casualties would have been enormously higher than the two nuclear bombs. Todays brainwashed children have never done this calculus, nor do they have any idea of the enemy or the nature of war.
As far as Rummel, his calculations are the best available. With very few exceptions, murderous regimes do not make a point of keeping records of those they have slaughtered. Rummel is very careful to review this in his presentations. AND, he was nominated for a Nobel Peace Prize, so his work has world wide credibility in an area of research never before presented.
As far as the Japanese casualties, consider the following. In the Rape of Nanking, the Japanese killed atleast 360,000 people one by one. This was not a strategic military decision, it was a culture of slaughter. Do I cry a lot of tears thinking about the civilians killed by two atom bombs, without looking at the nature of the war that was stopped? No. Read on:
PREFACE
By Ying-shih Yü
Professor of History, Princeton University
A major work on modern Chinese history, this book provides vivid and accurate documentation of one of Japan’s worst aggressions against China.
I should begin by summarizing the historical value of the work. Rather than a compilation using cut-and-paste technique, it is a solid and original study that maintains all the important standards of modern historiography: First, the work draws its main narrative from primary sources, including archives in Germany, Japan, and the United States, as well as journalistic reports, records of the International Military Tribunal for the Far East, and the recollections of survivors of the Nanking massacre; second, it incorporates a large number of references from other works about the Rape of Nanking; third, the skill of the authors and editors is reflected in two major areas:
significant topics have been condensed from an ocean of historical materials into eight in-depth chapters, making this complex historical tragedy easily comprehended by readers;
the entire narrative is built on solid evidence that is treated objectively, and rendered in fluent English and Chinese. The authors and editors have broken new ground in many areas. Through careful calculation of time and duration, they determine that Iwane Matsui was wrongly accused of being the Butcher of Nanking and sentenced to death by hanging. The real criminal, they demonstrate, was Prince Asaka, Emperor Hirohito’s uncle. In another crucial area, where the number of persons killed in Nanking has been controversial for half a century, this work puts an end to the debate: to prove that the number was no less than 369,366, for the first time burial records and Nanking census figures from before and after the massacre are brought to bear on this controversy.
http://www.tribo.org/nanking/preface.html
One city, 369,366 slaughtered…
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Ohioguy: *
As far as Rummel, his calculations are the best available. With very few exceptions, murderous regimes do not make a point of keeping records of those they have slaughtered. Rummel is very careful to review this in his presentations. AND, he was nominated for a Nobel Peace Prize, so his work has world wide credibility in an area of research never before presented.
[/QUOTE]
Since when did a Nobel Peace Prize become any test of a research's credibility? Arafat also has a Nobel prize, kindly point me to the sociological research you believe he is credited with. And do you then hang on to Arafat's every word as gospel truth?
Bottom line, you do not have reliable statistics, atleast as far as Rummel's work is concerned. As I said before, and will continue to say each time you tout Rummel's work as the 'best' research (where you gave him the 'best' award I dont know), these statistics are most probably wrong.
Ravage, while you might argue that the statistics Rummel presents are inaccurate (which you've given no evidence to indicate that that they are) ydo ou understand the point that OG has made?
As Rumsfeld would say “Collateral damage”.
Only American lives matter, the rest is collateral damage. 
you can say that again and recent comment by US figures prooves this.
**“I will never apologise for the United States of America, I don’t care what the facts are.” **
George H.W. Bush Sr.
**“It’s really not a number I’m terribly interested in.” **
Colin Powell on the number of iraqis killed in Gulf War
“We think the price is worth it.”
Madeline Albright when she was questioned whether the lives of a millionIraqi children was a “price worth paying”
And a quote from a rare good individual from the states:
**“The greatest purveyor of violence on earth is my own government” **
Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.
Ravage,
Rummel is:
“Rummel, Rudolph J.
Probably the top atrocitologist at work today. Generally thorough and reliable, the best thing about Rummel is that he explains in detail how he arrived at his numbers. [n.4]
Rummel’s primary concern is democide – his word for politically and ethnically motivated mass murder by governments. His principle books are:
China’s Bloody Century : Genocide and Mass Murder Since 1900 (1991), Calculates the lives lost in 20th Century China.
Lethal Politics : Soviet Genocide and Mass Murder Since 1917 (1990), Does the same for the Soviet Union.
Democide : Nazi Genocide and Mass Murder (1992), The German rampage across Europe.
Death By Government (1994), The full treatment for atrocities committed worldwide during the 20th Century.
Also, have a look at his excellent website at http://www2.hawaii.edu/~rummel/welcome.html.”
WAR STATS REDIRECT
This is according to the author cited by YOUR encyclopedia web site!
Look above, and you will see that Rummel says that the Japanese killed between 3,000,000 and 10,000,000 people in thier reign of terror. What you are failing to grasp here is that the sheer enormity of the killing makes precise and accurate accounts of all of the killing almost impossible. Rummel makes no pretense about having precisely the right number. It is the horrific scope of the attrocities, year after year by the most deadly regimes, that he is trying to expose. His work has not been eclipsed by another. If you can find someone with more accurate numbers, then take a shot. By the way, the SAME encyclopedia YOU used, lists deaths of civilians in China during World War II as 7,750,000, all of course by the Japanese!
This is MUCH more than Rummels calculation of 2,000,000 civilians! Yet you are failing to grasp the enormity of this discussion.
Whether the true number killed by the Japanese is 2,000,000, or 7,000,000, it was a brutal and horrific regime! The fact that they lost civilians with bombs designed to end a war, is really the smallest story here.
My point is that whereas Rummel gives a bound as 2-7 million, the lower bound might be much lower, the upper bound might be much higher. It doesnt necessarily lie in this range. Which is why his figures are generally provided along with the footnote that they’re probably off.
As for the broader point that you make, that Japan was killing a lot of civilians, that doesnt really justify anything. Each crime on humanity is a crime in its own right, and dropping a nuclear bomb on civilian population corresponds to such a crime. You are at liberty to say had we not have done this millions would’ve died because it so happened that Japan did quit and didnt go on a retaliatory indiscriminate bombing campaign against the random territories it could bomb in response. I believe thats how some countries react to unwarranted/shocking attacks.
It's one thing to kill a population and another to annihilate it. Hiroshima and Nagasaki were annihilated.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Ohioguy: *
The fact that they lost civilians with bombs designed to end a war, is really the smallest story here.
[/QUOTE]
A nation in self denial, believing any lie to hide their guilt.
you people are so blinded by anti-U.S fervor that it is making you look like uneducated idiots. learn about the incident before embarassing yourselves. the US of then was not the US of now.
the bombs were dropped to avoid a land invasion. such an invasion would have killed MANY more people. a MINIMUM of 500k Japanese would have died, but most likely upwards of 1 million. many estimated up to 3 million. the U.S casualty figures would be a MINIMUM of 250k as well.