10 Plagues of Egypt - Quranic version

Society Religion & Philosophy
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Re: 10 Plagues of Egypt - Quranic version

Peace Sister PCG

The Qur’an does not feature plagues at all … It talks about signs
It neither negates the death of the first born nor confirms it
The argument of such a curse not being true based on some idea that punishment is not given to another based on a crime of another is not correct because - the death of the first born is not a punishment to the first born … It is a punishment to the parents. Punishment happens in the Hereafter. Punishment was also given to people in the past who after receiving “clear signs” did not accept the truth.

Death itself is not a punishment … It is a natural process
Children die anyway - even today
You are viewing this situation as though it is a penal court case - in which case I agree - the crime of parents should not lead to their children being killed. But this was not done by any court. It was done by God. He merely took back from the people what He had given them … The story itself does not present a moral problem as you are making it out. However, you are correct that it might not be true anyway … but the reason that you are giving is not the reason why it is not true, because the reason you are giving falls short of a fuller understanding of what Allah (SWT) does and does not Allow to happen.

Also if the average people believed in the claim of Moses (AS) then they would painted lambs blood on their doors to save their children … I’m sure all of the Israelites and even some believing Egyptians did so … the rest didn’t do it. They were given plenty of warning according to the official story.

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Re: 10 Plagues of Egypt - Quranic version

If it can be proven that the Old Testament scriptures have doctored in the 10 plagues account - using historical critical data then there is an argument here. Until then the Bible itself is evidence of the account being true (or as true as it can be) and only if explicit negation takes place within Muslim scripture or it presents a major issue with compatibility with the Islamic belief system should we as Muslims hold a view that is contrary to the Biblical version, otherwise we can choose to accept it or reject it and it does not affect our Islam.

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Re: 10 Plagues of Egypt - Quranic version

I’m confused. “First born” could be an adult as well, isn’t it? Or only young first born were killed?

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Re: 10 Plagues of Egypt - Quranic version

I think the tradition is that it was all “first borns” so yes could include adults.

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Re: 10 Plagues of Egypt - Quranic version

Okay…I’m actually going to defend the Jewish belief (I know PCG, this is not what you want to hear but bear with me). First of all, we can’t impose our understanding of justice upon God because God is the most wise and He definitely doesn’t play by our rules.

Secondly, Quran talks about the story of Musa (AS) and Khidr (AS) in Surah Kahf…great lessons for us to learn. I’ll post the translations of the verses here:

18:65

Then they found one from among Our servants whom We had granted mercy from Us and whom We had taught knowledge from Ourselves.
18:66

Musa said to him: Shall I follow you on condition that you should teach me right knowledge of what you have been taught?
18:67

He (Khidr) said: Surely you cannot have patience with me
18:68

And how can you have patience in that of which you have not got a comprehensive knowledge?
18:69

He said: If Allah pleases, you will find me patient and I shall not disobey you in any matter.
18:70

He said: If you would follow me, then do not question me about any thing until I myself speak to you about it
18:71

So they went (their way) until when they embarked in the boat he made a hole in it. (Musa) said: Have you made a hole in it to drown its inmates? Certainly you have done a grievous thing.
18:72

He said: Did I not say that you will not be able to have patience with me?
18:73

He said: Blame me not for what I forgot, and do not constrain me to a difficult thing in my affair.
18:74

So they went on until, when they met a boy, he slew him. (Musa) said: Have you slain an innocent person otherwise than for manslaughter? Certainly you have done an evil thing.
18:75

He said: Did I not say to you that you will not be able to have patience with me?
18:76

He said: If I ask you about anything after this, keep me not in your company; indeed you shall have (then) found an excuse in my case.
18:77

So they went on until when they came to the people of a town, they asked them for food, but they refused to entertain them as guests. Then they found in it a wall which was on the point of falling, so he put it into a right state. (Musa) said: If you had pleased, you might certainly have taken a recompense for it.
18:78

He said: This shall be separation between me and you; now I will inform you of the significance of that with which you could not have patience.
18:79

As for the boat, it belonged to (some) poor men who worked on the river and I wished that I should damage it, and there was behind them a king who seized every boat by force.
18:80

And as for the boy, his parents were believers and we feared lest he should make disobedience and ingratitude to come upon them:
18:81

So we desired that their Lord might give them in his place one better than him in purity and nearer to having compassion.
18:82

And as for the wall, it belonged to two orphan boys in the city, and there was beneath it a treasure belonging to them, and their father was a righteous man; so your Lord desired that they should attain their maturity and take out their treasure, a mercy from your Lord, and I did not do it of my own accord. This is the significance of that with which you could not have patience.

And thirdly, we believe Allah is the most Just but we also believe that Allah’s mercy overpowers His anger.

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Re: 10 Plagues of Egypt - Quranic version

None of the above mentions the plague as described in judeo-Christian tradition.

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Re: 10 Plagues of Egypt - Quranic version

Negation has happened in the Quran. Number 9 is used not 10.

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Re: 10 Plagues of Egypt - Quranic version

Why do you want it to be true? I’ll leave aside hareem bibi here - she is your wife, and so mimics you.

If 10th plague happened, then deaths of children in Peshawar can be justified. That look this is how Allah gives justice so we should do the same. Why would Allah perform an act that is so unfair?

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Re: 10 Plagues of Egypt - Quranic version

Peace Sister PCG

You said that none of the above mentions plagues yet you present 9 Signs which also do not state them as plagues. Negation can only happen if the same subject matter is being dealt with - plagues may be signs (warnings) or punishments … but not all signs are plagues … If you looked at the graphic I created for you, you will see that only 4 of the plagues/signs match … these are Locusts, Lice, Frogs and Blood … The Bible states Thunder and Hail instead the Qur’an uses Flood, the Bible uses Flies, Livestock diseases and Boils and the Qur’an is silent on these - so is that negation of them too? Instead it states Human and Animal Pandemics that any reasonable person will see covers the 5 successive signs … The first four signs are not registered at all as plagues … which are his staff, his hand, year of drought and short crops … This is ample proof that there is not a 1 to 1 relationship between the 9 signs of the Qur’an and the 10 plagues of the Bible …

Also the plagues contain punishment - signs by definition precede punishment and do not include it - so there are 2 plagues remaining - NOT 1 but 2 when all the signs are complete … One “plague” is the darkness - which technically is not a plague - but the Bible calls it that anyway like a few more earlier … and second is the death of the first born … neither of these are signs anymore - these are azaab. The word for sign in Arabic is ayah.

If you have a problem in the destruction of children as azaab then you will have to modify all the cases where we are told whole nations were wiped out - for example the people of Hud, Lut, Salih and Nuh (Peace and Blessings of Allah (SWT) be on them all). You will break the calibration of our tradition it is better to overcome your personal bug rather than try to find something wrong in traditional understanding.

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Re: 10 Plagues of Egypt - Quranic version

Come again !!!

  1. My wife does not mimic me … what an insult … Actually I didn’t even think of putting the external references in to this discussion she thought it and hence I liked it because she presented a supporting argument that makes sense.

  2. The deaths in Peshawar cannot be justified according to Islamic law at all - but if you want to be twisted you can justify those killings with or without the death of the first born tradition … You can do it on several twisted ideas … but it is not your responsibility to refute the Peshawar killings by trying to modify erroneously traditions that probably don’t even point to the issue anyway.

Death of the first born was not something that humans went around doing in the name of God … It was done “miraculously” if you accept the belief. This is because there is a very clear principle in Islamic jurisprudence that states the “owner” of something has the right to do with that “something” as he wishes. So if I take your book and rip out a page - that is zulm, but if you do it to your own book - not a problem. Human life is the property of Allah (SWT) He can dispose of us in any way and it is NOT zulm … but if we take each other’s lives it is zulm. So absolutely there is no justification for killing. Penalty of death must be done under fixed circumstances … the accused needs to be heard to determine the level of innocence. Children are masoom and do not bear sin - until they can discern things. Killing children of the opposition in war situations is haram. So there is no justification … and it certainly will not make the slightest of difference if you try to modify that tradition, for people who want to do it anyway. Those killings were acts of tribal aggression and unIslamic behaviour - desperation. We should think - behaviour like that does not come from a vacuum.

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Re: 10 Plagues of Egypt - Quranic version

The 10th plague would fit under which sign then? It doesn’t fit under any of the signs. Because…it probably never happened.

If Allah did that, he was mimicking the Pharoah - how or why would Allah do such a thing? Allah describes the downfall of the Pharoah also in the Quran, brother Nouman Ali Khan gave a good khutbah on this just this past Friday that is doing it’s rounds.

Nowhere does it say the Pharoah was brought down because finally he lost his own biological son. He was brought down, because even his generals started doubting him.

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Re: 10 Plagues of Egypt - Quranic version

10th plague was a pretty big thing, you’d think it would have made it’s way into Quranic theology. It’s mere ABSCENCE argues for the idea that it never happened.

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Re: 10 Plagues of Egypt - Quranic version

Peace Sister PCG

Did you even look at the graphic I posted? It shows clearly that 9th and 10th plagues are not accounted for in the 9 signs. It also shows that the first 3 three plagues are not given specifically but summarised in one statement … It also shows that 4 of the 9 signs precede the all the 10 plagues … so this fixation of 9 and 10 is out of place.

Even in the Bible it does not say Pharaoh was brought down because he lost his son … In the Bible and the Qur’an both of them say that Pharaoh was brought down when he tried following Musa (AS) and the Israelites in to the parted sea … but it collapsed back on him and his troops.

There are a few things that are absent from the Qur’an because either hadith or previous scripture deal with the matter without significant error. The Qur’an tends to talk about matters by exception and focuses on the parts that previous people have misunderstood or got wrong. If silence is your way of saying it didn’t happen and then you say it is pretty significant then like the Trinity being refuted in the Qur’an I would say this belief would be explicitly refuted - not silent. And if it did not happen then what about previous generations that were wiped out - did they happen?

  1. So we have no material to refute this Jewish tradition - merely silence
  2. Historically when looking at scripture we take the tradition face value until we find malpractice to demonstrate otherwise
  3. Logically the argument of God not doing this is not valid - because God owns His creation.
  4. Previous generations were also destroyed
  5. Allah (SWT) had given specific instruction to Al-Khidr to kill a child who had done no wrong - but would become so in future. According to the law of Moses (AS) that act was punishable and for the rest of time it would remain so, but there are exceptions when they come from Allah (SWT).
  6. Don’t see the natural death of children as a punishment for them - but as a reproof for those who remain looking at their corpses.
  7. Unnatural life taking is zulm and can never be justified - be it of child or adult.
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Re: 10 Plagues of Egypt - Quranic version

Note: Sister PCG

Silence on a matter can only be used as an argument of negation if the silence precedes chronologically the counter information, but if it happens the other way round then silence is actually a form of compliance and agreement.

So let’s say that people say that is good to wear a shalwar kameez on Fridays, but only after Fajr - this sort of information is additional and we will not be able to corroborate this information with scripture … the scripture is silent - so this is called an innovation by addition. Innovation can also happen by subtraction but that is another matter.

However in the topic of Passover - did it happen yes or no? We cannot say from our scriptures that it did not happen … but we can say that we are not REQUIRED to believe it. If it exists in previous scripture then we take it as their tradition and trust it - except if there are real flaws in it - i.e. their own scriptures should negate it somehow by analysing their older texts and so on, until we arrive at a resolution. Since the Passover is chronologically predating the verses of Qur’anic revelation and there is silence on that matter then we cannot say the belief in Passover is false unless the Qur’an states as such.

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Re: 10 Plagues of Egypt - Quranic version

“Peshawar attack is justified coz of the 10th plague”. Even Taliban couldn’t have come up with that.

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Re: 10 Plagues of Egypt - Quranic version

Oh darling I’m not justifying it, you and your husband have by justifying that their kids may have died too during warfare.

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Re: 10 Plagues of Egypt - Quranic version

Destruction of a community such as in Noah’s flood story isn’t the same as the 10th plague where only infants were targeted.

And no it doesn’t make sense when the Quran doesn’t use the number 10 , it uses other numbers. Doesn’t make sense that Allah would deal the same punishment that the pharaoh dealt to his own people that made him so heinous in the first place. Ie. Infanticide.

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Re: 10 Plagues of Egypt - Quranic version

When an old friends child died, after battling illnesses through out her short life, I felt like congratulating him. Later in conversation I did kinda congratulate him, and he accepted

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Re: 10 Plagues of Egypt - Quranic version

Peace Sister for some reason you see natural death and killing as the same … I can’t undo that for you …

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Re: 10 Plagues of Egypt - Quranic version

The 10th plague deaths are anything but natural. They are a message that it’s ok to kill your enemies’ kids. It’s stuff like this that leads groups like the TTP to think they can do what they do.