If General Zia is being removed as president, why dont they simultaneously do the same for Gen. Ayub, Gen Yahya, Gen. Musharraf etc? Is Gen Zia being targeted because he was responsible for ridding the country of one of the worst thugs and ruthless feudal ruler?
He didn't remove the thug/ruler, he simply 'replaced' him by himself. ZAB destroyed country in other sense while Ziaul Haq laid the destructive foundation of which we are seeing results today.
Re: Ziaul Haq to be deleted as president from history
deir aye durust aye... balkey sub dictator-general's k first mein "kutta" bi likhna chahyia... !
Re: Ziaul Haq to be deleted as president from history
I dont see the ‘we should focus on X’ argument. doesnt seem like this is a very controversial thing, seems to have support from major parties, and so should pass without causing much fuss. think our parliament isnt so busy fighting terrorism and building up the economy that it cant spare a few hours getting this done too.
Its a good step. :k:
He didn't remove the thug/ruler, he simply 'replaced' him by himself. ZAB destroyed country in other sense while Ziaul Haq laid the destructive foundation of which we are seeing results today.
Gen Zia never had the dulai camp, and he was never known to put the political opponent leaders in torture camps.
Perhaps Mohajiron Qi Maut party was only second to Bhutto, that it ran torture cells in Karachi.
Zia's Islamism was bad, but if it was imposed by Zia, then our nation and especially our educated elite would have thrown away the yoke of Islamism, but it didn't.
Even now we have the very top of political parties besides Jahalit e Islamist party who are supporting Islamist terror.
Do you think Tehrike Islamists and its dear leader Imran khan were forced into supporting Talibots, due to pressure form Zia?
And IK is supposed to be the "most enlightened and educated" politiko around.
Thus singling out Zia may be the beginning, but it certainly is not the end of Islamism, until all of our educated elite, drop the false religiosity and munafiqat.
As ravage said, our legislators have no business in fighting terrorism, and improving the economy, so they will continue harping on trivial issues like renaming a province, and dragging the dead bodies out of their graves (symbolically if not physically).
Re: Ziaul Haq to be deleted as president from history
just to clarify. i dont think this or the province renaming is a trivial issue.
[quote="“ravage, post:28, topic:217510"”]
just to clarify. i dont think this or the province renaming is a trivial issue.
[/quote]
Perhaps my mistake to gather from your “pun”. May be you really that parliament should have plenty of time to spare on renaming and dragging dead bodies, even though the major needs of the hour are:
#1 - fighting terrorism
#2 - load shedding
#3 - economy (the 600 pounds guerilla in the room that everyone wants to ignore)
Gen Zia never had the dulai camp, and he was never known to put the political opponent leaders in torture camps.
Perhaps Mohajiron Qi Maut party was only second to Bhutto, that it ran torture cells in Karachi.
Zia's Islamism was bad, but if it was imposed by Zia, then our nation and especially our educated elite would have thrown away the yoke of Islamism, but it didn't.
Even now we have the very top of political parties besides Jahalit e Islamist party who are supporting Islamist terror.
Do you think Tehrike Islamists and its dear leader Imran khan were forced into supporting Talibots, due to pressure form Zia?
And IK is supposed to be the "most enlightened and educated" politiko around.
Thus singling out Zia may be the beginning, but it certainly is not the end of Islamism, until all of our educated elite, drop the false religiosity and munafiqat.
As ravage said, our legislators have no business in fighting terrorism, and improving the economy, so they will continue harping on trivial issues like renaming a province, and dragging the dead bodies out of their graves (symbolically if not physically).
Do you understand concept of seed growing into a plant?
Re: Ziaul Haq to be deleted as president from history
So out respectable members of parliament wasted time and money on amendments like these? I am sure session to approve this amendment alone must have cost Tax Payers at-least 10/20 grands. Where people are dying of hunger, they are getting into these useless amendments.
Tomorrow someone else will come with 2/3rd majority and might say you can not use prime minister with NS name or may be put the "President" prefix back to Zia's name ... its been more than 60 years we are wasting our energies in writing ..erasing ...writing ...erasing ...
If nothing else, While doing this why not remove "president" from other Martiallaw administrators names too like Ayub, yahya, Musharraf etc? that will at-least introduce some logic/sanity into this
Perhaps my mistake to gather from your "pun". May be you really that parliament should have plenty of time to spare on renaming and dragging dead bodies, even though the major needs of the hour are:
I think you're offering a false choice. It isnt either-or, it isnt as if the parliamentarians were sitting down fighting terrorism and load shedding and someone came running in and said hey listen, drop all that, lets go and vote on that zia ul haq thing. But wait! Let me just fix this Dam please, otherwise we will have load shedding. No, no time, come with us right now.
fighting terrorism and load shedding etc is mainly the work of the executive. lawmakers focus on lawmaking, and this is entirely appropriate for them to be doing. im sure under existing laws terrorism can be fought, load shedding can be improved, and the economy can be resurrected. Dont see what laws you wish the assembly to pass there.
Do you understand concept of seed growing into a plant?
Good analogy.
Whatever we have today is the result of plants growing up from seed planted by earlier generations (parents generation, grandparents, great-grandparents, etc. etc., )
What they did, was based on their judgement and their time.
Instead of blaming the previous generations and especially those who are dead, is kind of useless.
The only thing we can and should do NOW is to figure out how to live in 2010 and how to plan for OUR future (2011 and beyond).
If Zia's Islamism was bad, then let's decide today to rid ourselves of Islamist tendencies.
However if we drag Zia's virtual dead body, while continue eating the Islamist fruit, and continue putting more and more terroristic food to grow the Islamist plant, then our actions won't match our words, and we are doomed to repeat the same mistakes over and over and over.
Look at Afghanis, Their primitive tribal mind is not capable of seeing what they did wrong in the past, and how to correct it.
So they keep on literally dragging the dead bodies of their ex-leaders,
While absolutely refusing to change what they are doing NOW.
And the result,
A gad-awful hell hole of a country that continues to be under foreign boots for the last 30+years or more.
Re: Ziaul Haq to be deleted as president from history
For how long are we going to try to change the past. What is done is done. We should learn to move on.
Re: Ziaul Haq to be deleted as president from history
I wonder how many of the parlimentarians have read the constitution of Pakistan… 
PS: To me…its just a boring document…I don’t see any idealogy or realism in it…looks more like a report…
What they did, was based on their judgement and their time.
Instead of blaming the previous generations and especially those who are dead, is kind of useless.
Sometimes "judgements" are wrong, we ALWAYS need to do root-cause analysis, many people shy away and say 'lets not blame previous generation'. We should be able to analyze past mistakes, blame the right person/group and take to the task.
The only thing we can and should do NOW is to figure out how to live in 2010 and how to plan for OUR future (2011 and beyond).
If Zia's Islamism was bad, then let's decide today to rid ourselves of Islamist tendencies.
However if we drag Zia's virtual dead body, while continue eating the Islamist fruit, and continue putting more and more terroristic food to grow the Islamist plant, then our actions won't match our words, and we are doomed to repeat the same mistakes over and over and over.
Today we can admit Zia's wrong but a big chunk doesn't accept Musharraf's wrongs. Nobody wants to drag Zia's virtual/real dead body, that is not the intent. The intent is to blame the wrong actions and condemn, make sure that we don't repeat the same (which unfortunately we are repeating anyways).
We do need to find out how to live in 2010+ with global harmony without compromising our dignity/morals/values.
Gen Zia never had the dulai camp.
Yeah. He made the whole country a Dulai Camp.
Terrorists, Heroen,MQM, KK culture,Corruption culture, Paltoo Mullah, Murder by court,Nawaz Sharif, Ch Shujjaat. Ejaz ul haq and thousands more gifts.
Ubdullah Ibne Ubee ki Najaiz Baqiat
Yeah. He made the whole country a Dulai Camp. Terrorists, Heroen,MQM, KK culture,Corruption culture, Paltoo Mullah, Murder by court,Nawaz Sharif, Ch Shujjaat. Ejaz ul haq and thousands more gifts. Ubdullah Ibne Ubee ki Najaiz Baqiat
This is no place to start wrangling.
If Zia was sending his opponents to "torture chambers" like Dulai camp, then let us know.
Sometimes things are hidden, so the good journalists like yourself know more than the average guy on the street of Karachi / Lahore etc.
.....we ALWAYS need to do root-cause analysis, many people shy away and say 'lets not blame previous generation'. ..
Root-cause analysis is good. But it should not be used to lynch people.
In this scenario, what are the "causes" that you want to look for the roots?
This is no place to start wrangling.
If Zia was sending his opponents to "torture chambers" like Dulai camp, then let us know.
Sometimes things are hidden, so the good journalists like yourself know more than the average guy on the street of Karachi / Lahore etc.
I am a witness of Zia regime. I was a small officer in an investigation agency whole the time .I looked very close. I knew there was a Dulai camp in AJK but that was not a "torture chamber" He made really the whole country "torture chamber". Civilians were tried in Martial law courts. Just a Col and a major and they were authorized to give one life imprisonment. I knew many and can quote if you desire. No one can be at his side if he has little love to humanity.
.... I knew there was a Dulai camp in AJK but that was not a "torture chamber" ...
Dulai camp was used as a torture chamber by Zulfi Bhutto (and not by Zia).
good first step... needs to be followed by:
1) deleting ALL the dictators...
2) putting all of them on trial for treason.
good first step... needs to be followed by:
1) deleting ALL the dictators... 2) putting all of them on trial for treason.
Very simple. They all have violated their oath. There is a Court Martial which can be legally conducted after death. Ask for court martial.