Zia to zinda hai............saray pakistan may!

Society Pakistan & World Affairs
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Re: Zia to zinda hai............saray pakistan may!

thx teggy jee.....appreciate a sane response...i never meant to say that take islam out. use it as much as you want in personal space. The problem arises when you decide to use religion as a political tool. I believe Islam or any religion has no business to become a political tool...whenever you use religious tools to build up the core independent civil institutions—the courts, the media, a neutral civil service, army and police that check the power of government in mature democracies - you will end up with a fascist setup because religions do not have capability to set up these institutions and mullahs will start using their verdict as final word... as we saw in iran.....plus every religious sect would place itself and its teachings @ top of moral pedestal thus leaving no room for compromise and constitutional thinking..

you said islam never got a chance...i say it differently....if a certain religion or ideology fails to implement itself for last 1400years at constitutional and civic level then lets accept that religion does not have power to do so ... Christianity could not do it either until west got rid of it as a source of power and replace it with a different system...since then they are winners!

our masses are selecting same people because the whole country is consisted of same breed...imran khan is no different in his outlook and so is Nawaz....one of Imran khan’s mna recently praised taseer’s murderer and Imran did not kick him out of the party ... we did not even see any strong denouncement from PTI.....la howl walla quwata billah

plus secular forces are scared to open their mouth against zia-based constitutional orders because they all saw what happened to salman taseer....not to mention that majority of Pakistan supports tasser’s murderer.

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Re: Zia to zinda hai............saray pakistan may!

You're quoting one post, while addressing points from an entirely different post. Just address the questions in the post which you're addressing. Why hasn't the constitution as it stands been implemented? I reckon if the constitution even its' current form was properly and fully implemented to the letter, Pakistan's woes would be solved to a large degree.

It is not necessary to separate Religion from Public life in order to have a thriving society. Infact, it leads to decay and social fiber disintegrates. I wouldn't want Pakistan to be a glowing shell with a hollow inside. I want Pakistan to be shining for other outwardly, and have solidity and soundness within its' society. The Pakistani constitution is a hope in that direction. Why reinvent the wheel? Unless ofcourse it's because it caters to your views even if it goes against the majority.

You've already mentioned and accepted the fact that a majority of Pakistan opposes secular point of view. Then why favor tyranny in the shape of Secularism and force it upon the public? You would be acting no different than Zia ul Haq, just on the other end of the spectrum but all the same as far as moderation is concerned. Though you twisted it to propogate your view in saying that Majority of Pakistanis favor Salman Taseer's killer. Can you cite a source to back that up with, or is this merely your personal opinion?

What was the last time you saw Pakistani constitution being followed, and all the laws being followed by the politicians all the way down to public? If not so far, then start there. It's only fair.

The west has been a winner because they have made it essential, infact, a law to obtain at least the very basic education or its equivalent (GED) free of cost. Then additional assistance is given to those who just simply ask for aid in furthering their education. Infact, it's encouraged. That's what needs to happen in Pakistan. The politicians should stop lining their pockets, and invest in the public and Pakistan can easily climb up the progressive ladder.

I'm sorry to say this, but until you can say with confidence that Pakistan constitution is being followed completely, and a majority of the public is educated, you really should not speak on what part religion plays in success of Pakistani society. Because that would not be a fair assessment. Though you may personally like Pakistan to turn into what you'd like it to turn into, but factually speaking the majority disagrees with you (as you've already mentioned yourself). Religion stays.

I agree though that faith should not be misused as a tool of circumventing people's rights as outlined in the Quran. No one individual has the right to amend those rights, to add to them, or to take away from them. That's my belief as a muslim, and i'm sure it's the same source of belief a majority of muslims everywhere follow.

Pakistan's constitution is not a bad charter of Governance, just in case you're wondering. It's a sound framework if followed completely. You say Islam has failed people in Governance, I say people have failed Islam.

Zia ul Haq is gone, and has been for decades now. Lets not become the people who find scapegoats to pin our collectives failures on to. As I said before the onus is on the successive Governments that have come since his rule ended; they failed the masses who voted them in. Cursing deceased guy is easy, finding an actual solution might prove to be more challenging, and I sincerely feel that the "Author" is of the same category of people who wail and cry about spilled milk without doing anything to clean it up and move forward. Though I could very well be wrong.

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Re: Zia to zinda hai............saray pakistan may!

Zia had his weaknesses but isn't it also true PD that some of the most liberal TV shows were aired during his time

Let me list a few:

  • Fifty Fifty
  • Ankahi
  • Tanhaiyan

  • Showtime

  • taabeer, Waaris, aangan tera, andhera ujala, sona chandi etc. etc.

The quality of PTV dramas is not the same anymore (although I must admit that I am a bit out of touch these days)

If you remember Nazia-Zoheb duet 'tere qadmon ko...' was frequently aired on TV during his sham 85 referendum. He did not ban them singing together despite pressure from the right

  • Zia hosted Dilip Kumar and Saira Bano in the mid-80s

He did use Islam to fool the masses, but it was mainly a political stunt to strengthen his grip on power. Privately Zia loved Hindi films and cricket. A hardcore islamist would not have allowed all the things that I have mentioned above.

As for grooming of Mujahideen etc., remember the era also marked the height of the cold war

If anything I would say Zia was more liberal than the Sharif brothers

I did all my schooling during his time. Although I did not understand politics as well back then as I was too young, it didn't really feel like you were living under an oppressive regime. You had essentially the same freedoms back then (perhaps even more) as you have now.

so I am not sure if Zia (despite all his faults) is solely responsible for the conservatism that seeped into Pak society later.

How do you explain the above?

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Re: Zia to zinda hai............saray pakistan may!

Phal to baadmay nikalta hai which is I think PD's main point here. The liberalism that you saw in the eighties was a product of the generation that was born in the 40, 50s, 60s making their mark in the adult hood. Things wouldn't have been so bad if only Pakistan didn't have a fast growing youth bulge which is not tapped correctly.

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Re: Zia to zinda hai............saray pakistan may!

True - that is why for me Ayub Khan (not saying he was a saint) was the best leader after Jinnah - but one cannot also ignore the impact of the fallout post end of the cold war

Many MQMers conveniently disown Zia now, even abuse him on this forum as they want to portray themselves as 'liberals' but the reality is Zia was behind the creation of this party. PPP ka zore torney k liye Zia ney yeh museebat khari kee Karachi mein ...Urdu-speaking people had genuine grievances, they were discriminated against and MQM gave them a platform to raise their voice but I lost all respect for the party once they started behaving like a mafia and resorted to violence and bhattakhori...

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Re: Zia to zinda hai............saray pakistan may!

Actually, it is true that we are still reaping the effects of what Zia did to this nation. Yes jammat-e-islami and other such pseudo islamist groups and their ideologies were present before Zia but Zia armed them to their teeth in the name of Afghan jihad. He made them so potent that despite having negligible vote bank, no ruler not even dictator like Musharaf could ignore them. What he has given to this society is evident from the incident quoted at the end of article in the OP. The incident of ahmed pur sharqia where a man was burnt alive on the pretext of destroying a copy of holy Quran. Please note that when the crowd torched him, they also torched the house of a police employee where two copies of holy Quran were also burnt to ashes. So Zia has promoted a culture of using Islam for political and personal gains and a culture of munafiqat and double standards. As hassan nisar once said that man has pushed this nation 1100 years back. So yes I agree with the article that despite the fact that no one remembers Zia in good words but his cancerous vision is still there.

*Yeh jabr bhi dekha hai taareekh ki nazron ne
Lamhon ne khata ki thi sadiyon ne sazaa payee
*

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Re: Zia to zinda hai............saray pakistan may!

Zia may have been a worse offender of religious exploitation of the masses but the beemari actually started from ZAB. ZAB set a wrong precedent by inserting religion in the constitution.

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Re: Zia to zinda hai............saray pakistan may!

^ Yes. ZAB laid the foundations. ZUH build the building.

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Re: Zia to zinda hai............saray pakistan may!

Zia killed film industry of Pakistan. Before this mardood's peiriod, a number remarkable movies were produced many of them better than Indian movies. During this mardood's tenure, Shabnam actress was gang raped by sons of military officers but his fraud Islamic laws were for poor people. Instead of punishing those rapists under Islamic laws, Shabnam was banished and kicked out from Pakistan.

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Re: Zia to zinda hai............saray pakistan may!

Ironically, it was a jamati turned to pti member on another forum that debated me once on how blasphemy law was right as done by Zia because he had a whole trial of the issue and it was passed by a democratic parliament.

As for the mqm issue, its fate was majorly sealed when azeem tariq was murdered in the early nineties? by someone inside mqm. MQM has really no hope until, first of all, altaf hussain bites the dust and some other ghundas are kicked out as well.

In that sense, PTI has a great chance (karachiites came out and forced a bye election in at least NA-250) to do something great here. Imran khan can do what MQM could not do, lead in the center, because I doubt that even a sane MQM would ever get votes from central and northern punjab since its core is urdu speaking people.

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Re: Zia to zinda hai............saray pakistan may!

Some one told me that it was his nephew super duper ex-mayor Mustafa Kamal who was main culprit involved in killing his uncle Azim Tariq, as he was the one who opened the doors for killers.