Re: Zero Respect for Javed Ahmad Ghamdi
Fraudz, I dont know enough about the murtid issue or the basis behind it. I was merely objecting that having a different view of it can be so severe a disagreement as to undermine the reason Islam was revealed and reveal the fact that the person is the most ridiculous scholar in the history of Pakistan.
Re: Zero Respect for Javed Ahmad Ghamdi
When he said pervezi tendencies, it was not refering to Pervaiz Musaharraf. It was a referal to a Civil Service Officier Pervaiz Ahmed, who started a movement in Pakistan and many people became part of it. He basically denies Ahaadeeth and such people are called Munkireen-e-Hadeeth or Ahl-e-Quran by the scholars. They, by far, are considered out of Islam due to their extreme beliefs. For example, my cousin met a pervaizi in Boston, MA.
That person said few things that crack all of us.
Why do you need to face ka’aba specifically. The earth is round. Face anywhere else, prayer will circle around the world and reach the ka’ba:D
Let’s decide now. Start Celebrating eid on Jan 1st of every year so that we can enjoy New Year too 
Even if you are driving, you can offer salah… just imagine yourself praying in the mind and you are all fine. yeah just shake some butts and hands and you are all fine 
Re: Zero Respect for Javed Ahmad Ghamdi
^ well Point #1 is not quite that far off the mark. it is actually possible to be at a point where you can face in a mutitude of directions and still be facing kaaba. if earth was flat i would be a different story but its round.
think of a soccer ball, mark a point on it, if it is very close its almost linear, u draw a stright line, but as you start moving one of the point farther away, technically there are several 'straight' lines that can connect point 1 and point two. At this point the scholars say well you look for the shortest path. However it is entirely possible that you are at a point where there are connecting points which are identical in length, then what? what if you move the second point to the exact opposite side of the ball, then what?
while I smirked at poitn 2 and 3, and see the limit of point 1, its not completely off base in some situations.
Re: Zero Respect for Javed Ahmad Ghamdi
Interesting !
I never knew about this pervezi movement or the guy behind it.
I knew only about pervezi ( religion / cult ) which is not related to the topic anyway
Re: Zero Respect for Javed Ahmad Ghamdi
I respect Mr Ghamdi for his views. I believe he is a great scholar. His thoughts are quite different then the rest of the scholars but then he reasons his opinion very well. He reasons on the basis of Qur'an and Sunnah. I won't comment on him being pervaizi coz thats something nobody here is sure abt.
Re: Zero Respect for Javed Ahmad Ghamdi
What Javed Ahmad Ghamidi is saying is simply to follow Qur’an and Sunnah, both of which came to us through consensus of Ummah! He is asking to follow the prophet and not the scholars (or sunnis call it “infalliable sunni ijma”). I don’t find this approach to be rebellious even to its slightest. Those who are opposing are in danger of their own ideologies which sometimes goes against Qur’an and Sunnah. No one is perfect, and neither is Ghamidi. But whoever tells others something, others should listen to him instead of rejecting him on the basis of their own prejudice.
And lastly, for those that Ghamidi likes Pervez Musharaf, they should read Ghamidi’s essay on army in political system of Pakistan. It can be read in urdu from: ghamidi.org/halat_fog.html
Re: Zero Respect for Javed Ahmad Ghamdi
Anything that takes away from Islam to make it into a religion that has no respect for its own ideologies is very dear to all mod-Muslims...
Tomorrow, if a 'scholar' comes and says, it's OK to drink, people will say, Hmmm, this guys sounds interesting...Let me learn more more on his works, maybe he might be easy on adultery too...
And in seeking the easier and easier way out, we go out of track...
To tell you the truth, he very much looks like a plant by the government to me, much the same way as Ghulam Ahmed Qadiani was to stray the masses through selling our the Faith...
Re: Zero Respect for Javed Ahmad Ghamdi
Thank you for your comments! If someone comes tomorrow and asks you to drink, you will never drink because Qur’an is very clear. Similarly if someone says that circumcission is not mentioned in Qur’an, it still cannot be abondaned because it came to us through perpetual adherence of whole Ummah as part of Sunnah. My point, which I have already stated, is that we should keep our minds open. John Esposito writes about Javed Ghamidi that he is labelled modernist for his insistence on contextualization of Muhammad’s revelation. Now! tell me what is wrong in reading the verses of Qur’an in context. If someone wants to take each verse separate, he can take such a wrong meaning.
The bottom line is, no one is oblidged to follow neither Ghamidi or any other scholar. All of us as Muslims are liable to follow Qur’an and Sunnah and whoever teaches the correct message, should be listened.
Re: Zero Respect for Javed Ahmad Ghamdi
Yes, one issue can turn you into a kafir
It was one issue that dropped Iblees from the ranks of angels to Satan.
Re: Zero Respect for Javed Ahmad Ghamdi
Lot has transcended to us by filtered evidence during centuries of political rife and struggles.. murtad issue should be studied in depth.. many laws have formed in islam by tradition .. We also have to see why at Suleh-e-Hudaibia peopel could go back to Quresh not otherwise.. no complusion in Islam as already mentioned in above posts and so many other instances..
Re: Zero Respect for Javed Ahmad Ghamdi
Ghamidi writes on Apostasy: (taken from renaissance.com.pk/novsps966.html)
In Islamic terminology, apostasy means the rejection and renunciation of faith by a Muslim. In our Fiqh, the punishment for apostasy is death. The tradition upon which the verdict is based is narrated by Ibn ‘Abbas in the following way:
Execute the person who changes his faith. (Bokhari: Kitab Istatabat-al-Murtaddin)
Our jurists regard this verdict to have a general application for all times upon every Muslim who renounces his faith. In their opinion, this tradition warrants the death penalty for every Muslim who becomes a disbeliever. In this matter, the only point in which there is a disagreement among the jurists is whether an apostate should be granted time for repentance, and if so what should be the extent of this period. The Hanafite jurists though, exempt women from this punishment. Apart from them, there is a general consensus among the jurists that every apostate, man or woman, should be punished by death.
In our consideration, this opinion of our jurists is not correct. The verdict pronounced in this tradition does not have a general application but is only confined to the people towards whom the Prophet (sws) was directly assigned. The Qur’an uses the words mushrikin and ummiyyin for these people. We now elaborate upon our view at length.
All of us are well aware about the fact that life has been endowed to us not because it is our right but because it is a trial and a test for us. Death puts an end to it whenever the period of this test is over, as deemed by the Almighty. In ordinary circumstances, He fixes the length of this period on the basis of His knowledge and wisdom. In special circumstances, when a prophet is assigned towards a nation, the span is governed by another Divine law which has been explained in the Qur’an in detail. It is based upon certain premises which must be understood beforehand. A prophet is the final authority on this earth about matters which pertain to faith. No other person can illustrate and explicate the essentials of faith in a better manner. He uses his extraordinary powers of intellect and reasoning to deliver and disseminate the truth revealed to him. He exposes the truth in its ultimate form after which a person can have no excuse but stubbornness and enmity to deny it. We have indicated before that God's purpose in endowing life to people is to test whether they accept and uphold the truth when it comes to them. In these special circumstances, the truth is unveiled to them in its purest form by no other a personality than a prophet. If they then deny it, there is no possibility whatsoever that a further extension in life can induce them to accept it. It is at this juncture that the Divine law sanctions the death sentence for them.
The sentence is enforced upon them in one of the two ways depending upon the situation which arises. In the first case, after performing Itimam-i-Hujjat(The unveiling of truth by a prophet to the extent that no one has an excuse to deny it.) upon his nation, a prophet and his companions not being able to achieve political ascendancy in some other territory migrate from their people. In this case, Divine punishment descends upon them in the form of raging storms, cyclones and other divinely ordained disasters which completely destroy them. Historically speaking, the tribes of ‘Ad and Thamud and the people of Noah and Lot besides many other nations met with this dreadful fate, as has been mentioned in the Qur’an. In the second case, a prophet and his companions are able to acquire political ascendancy in a land where after performing Itimam-i-Hujjat upon their people they migrate. In this case, a prophet subdues his nation by force, and executes them if they do not accept faith. It was this situation which had arisen in the case of our Prophet (sws). On account of this God bade him to declare that the people among the ummiyyin who will not accept faith until the day of Haj-i-Akbar (9th AH) will be given a final extension by a proclamation made in the field of ‘Arafat on that day. According to the proclamation, this final extension would end with the last day of the month of Moharram, during which they must accept faith, or face execution at the end of this period. The Qur’an says:
When the forbidden months are over slay the idolaters wherever you find them. Seize them, surround them and every where lie in ambush for them. But if they repent and establish regular prayers and pay Zakah, then spare their lives. God is oft-forgiving and ever merciful. [9:5]
A tradition illustrates this law in the following manner:
‘I have been ordained to fight against these people until they testify to the oneness of God and assent to my prophethood, establish regular prayers and pay Zakah. If they accept these terms their lives will be spared except if they commit some other violation that demands their execution by Islamic law.’ (Bokhari: Kitab-al-Iman)
This law, as we have stated before, is specifically meant for the ummiyyin or the people towards whom our Prophet (sws) was directly assigned. Apart from them, it has no bearing upon any other person or nation. So much so that even the people of the Book who were present in the Prophet's times were exempted from this law by the Qur’an. Consequently, where the death penalty for the ummiyyin has been mentioned in the Qur’an, adjacent to it has also been stated in unequivocal terms that the people of the Book shall be spared and granted citizenship if they pay Jizyah. We quote from the Qur’an:
Fight against those among the people of the Book who believe not in God nor in the last day, and who do not forbid what God and his prophet have forbidden and do not accept the religion of truth as their own religion, until they pay Jizyah out of subjugation and lead a life of submission. [9:29]
There is a natural corollary to this Divine law as obvious as the law itself. As stated above the death penalty had been imposed upon the ummiyyin if they did not accept faith after a certain period. Hence it follows that if a person among the ummiyyin after accepting faith reverts to his original state of disbelief, he must face the same penalty. Indeed it is this reversion about which the Prophet (sws) has said ‘Execute the person who changes his faith.’
The relative pronoun ‘who’ in this tradition qualifies the ummiyyin just as the words ‘the people’ (Al-Nas) in the tradition quoted earlier are specifically meant for the ummiyyin. When the basis of this law as narrated in these traditions exists in the Qur’an with a certain specification then quite naturally this specification should be sustained in the corollary of the law. Our jurists have committed the cardinal mistake of not relating the relative pronoun ‘who’ with its basis in the Qur’an as has been done in the case of ‘the people’ (Al-Nas). Instead of interpreting the tradition in the light of the relationship between the Qur’an and Sunnah they have interpreted it in the absolute sense, totally against the context of the Qur’an. Consequently, in their opinion the verdict pronounced in the tradition has a general and an unconditional application. They have thereby incorporated in the Islamic Penal Code a punishment that has no basis in the Shari‘ah.
There is no doubt whatsoever that this death penalty was prescribed only for the ummiyyin who lived during the prophethood of Mohammad (sws), be they the idolaters or others like Waraqah Ibn Nawfal, a cousin of the Prophet's wife, Khadijah (raa), who were originally among the ummiyyin and had later accepted Judaism or Christianity. It is absolutely evident that now if a Muslim becomes an apostate and is also not a source of nuisance for an Islamic State, he cannot be administered any punishment merely on the basis of apostasy.
Re: Zero Respect for Javed Ahmad Ghamdi
for a minute.. can everyone just think like a human being? didn't Allah give you a brain? a soul? a conscience? logic? reasoning?
Turn all of them on and think about a religion.. where people are bound by compulsion and a fear of execution.. do u seriously in all u'r right mind and conscience and logic and reasoning think this could be a 'true' religion?
whatever happened to "there is no compulsion in religion"?
what if someone rejects their faith.. it's THEIR frigging business.. between them and Allah.. who are WE to become Khudayee faujdaar and issue hadds and taazeers on them? i can already hear the little maulvies crawling out and waving their beloved hadiths at us.. oooooh it's written here.. falana bin flana bin flana said this to falana bin dhimkana who then transmitted this to tom bin dick bin harry who heard his friend hear this from the servant who served the guy who lived next doors to this pious guy who had audience with the prophet that........
STOP IT ALREADY.. it's the fricking 21st century... burn these idiotic story books and pull that Qur'an down from the attic.. dust it off and start reading it YOURSELF!!!!
Re: Zero Respect for Javed Ahmad Ghamdi
for all of u'
i think all should have the respesct for everyone who is elder then u this is what Islam said and i think the named 18plus has to know even the basics of islam and then talk about it, islam is nothing but Akhlaqiat. And the person u r talking about i can bet that none of u have ever read him. i heard that programe he did not said that every body should go and become a christian. i think u all should first hear that programe first and then talk about him.
and the second thing which he said and he is pervaizi, i think now we should grow up, and have the passions to hear a differnt thing then our set idiology.
he always give examples from Quran, sunna and Hadith. we should argue if we have a differnt openion but we have no right to discuss somebodies religion, and the second thing is that in islam every body has the right to convey his openion this is our job that we hear everybody and then decide who is right and who is wrong but on the bassis of quran and sunna and hadith not on our personal idiologies.
if i heart somebody i am sorry but this my openion and i have the right to convey.
thanks
Re: Zero Respect for Javed Ahmad Ghamdi
Its an insult to scholars to call him a scholar.
Re: Zero Respect for Javed Ahmad Ghamdi
*Are u sure about this? I saw her doing Umra the other day with Mushy. I thought Ahmadis were declared non-muslims by saudi government and so were not allowed to do umra or Hajj. *