Re: Zardari - The most hated person in Pakistan !!
Degas' point is valid. once upon a time, you could trust GS mods to post sensibly and be leaders in stimulating good discussion based on facts and logic. not so any more.
focusing on one politician during a calamity is pretty stupid. it might be fashionable but it isn't rational. but as usual, common sense and rationale does not apply when we talk about Zardari.
Re: Zardari - The most hated person in Pakistan !!
I would had been happy if the mod had started a rational discussion about Zardari;s UK tour and its timing, or even his dislike.. but it was something else..
truth to u and Butts of lahore
now I think thats personal attack ;) ist it?
I would had been happy if the mod had started a rational discussion about Zardari;s UK tour and its timing, or even his dislike.. but it was something else..
absolutely. technically there is nothing wrong with the thread or the opening post. it's not like he swore or anything. but you expect more from mods. or at least you used to in the past.
anyway, forget about this too. when the generals want to make peace with India by selling out Kashmir, it's all good. when a democratic govt talks peace with India, it is betraying Pakistan. when the generals take aid from the US, it's a-okay. when a democratic govt agrees to Kerry Lugar, then again it is betraying Pakistan. when Musharraf parties up while the country is in flames, it's o-okay. but if Zardari leaves on a state trip to another country, then he is a leech.
wonderful. case sealed.
Re: Zardari - The most hated person in Pakistan !!
@aaho; yeah that’s a borderline personal/ethnic attack, but neither batman and I are butts and not offended 
Democracy is not Gods gift to man!
And when the majority of Pakistan want this guy out how is that undemocratic... would you like a GS poll on the matter? :p
I was caught off guard at ur remarks about democracy - but now I understand by reading ur admiration of Talibans in the other thread in Pak affairs! u hate democratically elected people like Zardari.. and admire those who redicule constitution of Pakistan..
Re: Zardari - The most hated person in Pakistan !!
He is the president of this country in its worst time. And it has never been so difficult to rule Pakistan.
If someone else was in the presidency, he too would have done this UK tour.
imo, Zardari's character assassination is one of the most successful smear campaigns the world has ever seen. I'm not saying that he is an angel. he clearly isn't. but the way politicians (not just Zardari) were publicly ridiculed and humiliated in the 90s is something to behold. the names of Zardari, BB and NS were made synonymous with corruption to the point where now when the public even subconsciously links corruption with Zardari/politicans. even if you ask an ABCD kid who knows nothing about Pakistan... he/she will know that Zardari is not only corrupt but the devil himself. I remember growing up in the 90s and the kind of stories that were circulated about BB were absolutely fantastical and ridiculous. a couple of years ago, I ran into a Karachiite who said that BB (a mother of 3) made money by selling the organs of kids in Karachi. a national leader, chairman of the largest political party in the country (that stands for human rights and freedom) and a mother 3 was making money by selling the organs of kids. wow... and I won't even get into how all the newspapers established that she was a traitor to the country and a security hazard etc. well in the end, she was the one who came back to the country despite threats and gave her life bravely for the country. not like our rangeen mizaaj commando Musharraf who ran away licking his own balls. these hermaphrodite generals wish they had the courage, bravery, integrity and self respect of Bhutto, BB, Mian Iftikhar Hussain, the Bilours, etc.
if you think about Zardari, the way he is hated you would think he was Mir Jaffar and Mir Sadiq in one... it's like everything calamity that befell Pakistan was directly due to him. so, lets see. did he break the country? no, the generals did that. did he start Kargil that resulted in international humiliation for the country? no, the generals did that. did Zardari drag us into terrorism mess and make us a poodle of the US all over again? no, the generals did that. did Zardari murder a prime minister of this country? no, the generals did that. did Zardari send a twice elected prime minister of the country into exile by manufacturing false cases? no, the generals did that. did Zardari give not so veiled threats to BB about the need for her cooperation in exchange for her life? no, one of the generals did that. did Zardari order Hammad Raza murdered? no, the generals did that. did Zardari protect the rapists of Dr. Shazia in Balochistan? no, the generals did that.
really makes you think about the fact that the Pak generals might not be very successful in their day jobs... but if there is one thing it knows, it is how to play politicians like violins. all its takes is a well timed nudge to the editor of some third class paper like Jang/The News or some journalist for hire like Ansar Abbasi, etc and you can get them to write for or against anyone.
similarly, the Pakistani press ought to be embarrassed of how it has conducted itself over the years and how it plays into the hands of the establishment. when the winds change, so does the slant of our newspapers. for example, just read the bakwaas they write every time a general is being promoted. they write about Kayani as if he is the second coming of Alexander the great. these people have no conscience... they are for rent. pay them enough and they will two opposite things in the same day on the same channel. just look at daaaktar Shahid Mossad. the man is an amoeba. will crawl into any hole and assume its shape.
and lastly, our politicians need to stop being so naive. when you get accused of something, don't just ignore it and pretend that you're taking the high road... take the idiot to court where either you are convicted or the "journalist" is. you can't have it both ways.
OMG I can not believe this post. I am in utter shock that someone would believe in something like this. Yeah, I know that there are some stories about BB and NS circulating around that might not be true. For example, the selling of the organs and I don't think anyone literate person with an ounce of brain would agree with those. BB and zardari and NS are synonymous with corruption because through out the late 80s and the whole of 90s one would kick the other one out of power and slap a million corruption charges against them and let the press lose after them. That is the reason why they are famous for corruption not because any general did one thing or another. As far as BB is concerned, whatever her family fortune was or whatever her business, she still could not afford to buy the 17 million pound mansion that zardari is claiming to be his in the UK and all of the other properties that they posses. NS even with his mills and whatever can not even imagine to pay for the “Raiwand Mehel” which has gold plated furniture and ceilings. Not to forget the foreign exchange scam that he ran during the late 90s when seized for exchange accounts of overseas paksitanis and payed 45 rupees/$ when it was actually worth 60 something rupees. When the night before this seizure happened all the foreign currency reserves of these so called political leaders were transferred to over seas accounts. This is the reason why they are synonymous with corruption, not because some general did one thing or another. If you are not satisfied with just this, do a little google search and you can find how many million of rupees worth of loans have been defaulted by these so called politicians.
Benazir came back to the country because of the elections and the power. She only came during the election time and before than all these awesome politicians that you just mentioned ran out themselves in the same “licking their own balls” manner that you describe and not just that before they were leaving they signed papers admitting all their wrong doings and promised that they won’t be coming back but then again all of them are here. Especially NS who cut a deal with the Saudi prince that he not going to step out of the kingdom.
For all the calamities that you are talking about that happened because of the generals, they didn’t quite happen during the musharraf era. Country didn’t break then neither it is broken now(surprisingly). The kargil issue that happened, it happened when NS was the PM, you can confirm that. Musharraf did agree to help the US with the war against terror but the long stretch of “war against terrorism” that we have in northern Pakistan where we are killing Pakistani citizens started last year under zardari’s watch. Zardari could have easily chosen to end all this but he decided to further become a US’s puppet. Musharraf didn’t murder a prime minister of the country either but NS almost killed the chief of army staff by not letting him land in his own country which pretty much resulted in him being kicked out. None of the generals wanted to excile the twice kicked out prime minister but he cut a deal and signed papers admitting to his wrong doings before leaving on his own free will. I don’t know the Hammad raza story or the Dr. Shazia one so for that I can even give you the benefit of being right but did Zardari do anything to bring peace or justice to them, NO. He on the other have been openly accused of killing his brother in law and was not even allowed to come at the funeral. I am sure that says something.
As far as what did happen during the General’s time was that for the first time in the history of the country we had substantial foreign reserves. We had an emerging middle class and our economy was doing extremely well. The Karachi stock market has not reached those levels before or after that general’s era. People had more to eat and more foreign companies were willing to come to Pakistan. We had a primes minister who for the first time in the history of the country did not have any allegations or court charges against him.
As far as the press being sold out is concerned just turn on Geo news and you’ll see NS propaganda going on 24/7. Hamid Mir is one of the crappiest sold out journalist there is who wldn’t know journalism if it slapped him on his face. He was there during the general era and he is still there right now. I know there are a few on zardari’s side too I just don’t know there names.
absolutely. technically there is nothing wrong with the thread or the opening post. it's not like he swore or anything. but you expect more from mods. or at least you used to in the past.
anyway, forget about this too. when the generals want to make peace with India by selling out Kashmir, it's all good. when a democratic govt talks peace with India, it is betraying Pakistan. when the generals take aid from the US, it's a-okay. when a democratic govt agrees to Kerry Lugar, then again it is betraying Pakistan. when Musharraf parties up while the country is in flames, it's o-okay. but if Zardari leaves on a state trip to another country, then he is a leech.
wonderful. case sealed.
When generals were making peace we saw increased trade with india and stimulating economy. When they did take aid from the US we saw new bridges and superways being built. We did not see others openly calling pakistan a terrorist country who was promoting terrorism back then. We did not get crap from people and then our president going to the same country to have a ball 10 days later.
*As far as what did happen during the General’s time was that for the first time in the history of the country we had substantial foreign reserves. We had an emerging middle class and our economy was doing extremely well. The Karachi stock market has not reached those levels before or after that general’s era. People had more to eat and more foreign companies were willing to come to Pakistan. We had a primes minister who for the first time in the history of the country did not have any allegations or court charges against him. *
.
u call that progress!!! getting military aids by Zia and Musharaf from USA did swell the foreign reserves but what common people had - nothing.. these reserves depleted with their corruption but as sacred cows - no one investigates army affairs.. and there were so many scandals in Musharaf times , from steel mill o stock exchage debacle.. getting such kind of aid doesnt make a country prosperous..
Re: Zardari - The most hated person in Pakistan !!
What are you talking about. You can check the Karachi stalk market indices and where tehy stood during their era. You can also check the foreign investment in the Pakistani market during that time. There were issues in that era and I am in no way saying that there weren't but there wasn't open theft that is going on right now. I mean how much money did PM's wife got a loan for that was pardoned. I think it was in 60s of crores. The whole NAB report that named oh so many people and none of them actually appeared in court. You can claim taht report to be fake but you can still check how many ministers took how many loans and never paid back just in the last year. You can also refer to the sugar shortage debacle where 85%-90% of the mills were owned by the ministers or their relatives.
Re: Zardari - The most hated person in Pakistan !!
Dude you can challenge all teh allegations whether they are true or not and corruption charges but the stock exchange market was the highest during that era. The amount of money we had in foreign exchange was highest. The foreign investment was highest during then. The jobless rate was lowest then.
You can challenge taht corruption was high then and not now and even if I say domestic terrorism was low then as compared to now I don't have numbers to back me up on that. But the things that I mentioned in my previous paragraph, they are facts and hard numbers ... you can not refute them.
it is good to know your facts before getting all bent out of shape… but either way, here we go…
why do people want power? specifically why do politicians and BB in particular want/wanted power? according to people like you, it was just so she could loot the country and make off with more wealth. correct?
but you also have to be alive to enjoy/spend the wealth, correct? so, walk me through why a person would contest elections knowing there were multiple and authentic death threats to her life? especially after she survived one close call where she almost died. so, explain to me why she would contest elections if power (which according to you she used to loot money) was all she wanted when contesting this election was going to cost her her life.
regarding to NS, so, he should have also stayed and gotten murdered at the hands of Musharraf, right? I mean what a coward… ran away… so he should have also been brave and gotten hanged like Bhutto. because we sure did a lot to help Bhutto and save his life, correct?
yes, I didn’t restrict myself to Musharraf’s era because you simply cannot discuss Zardari without discussing all politicians and their public image problem over the years. and you cannot discuss the horrible public image of politicians without discussing the kind of harm that the generals past and present have caused to the country.
except many fellow generals of the time have said that it was Mushrraf’s brainchild. NS didn’t even know that this had happened. this was Musharraf’s idea when BB was PM and he mentioned it to her in some meeting. and she thought he was a lunatic for dreaming up this kind of stuff.
here’s one: BBC NEWS | South Asia | Call for Musharraf treason trial
wtf!
first of all, are you saying that there should be no operations? secondly, there were no drone attacks in Musharraf’s time? thirdly, so, Zardari is a US puppet and what Musharraf did for 8 years was not be a US puppet?
are you for real?
the kind of cases NS was being implicated in… he was going to be hanged.
and Musharraf’s claim that the plane was going to crash has been denied by others. if the prime minister orders the plane land at another airport, then it was the pilot and Musharraf’s job to obey… not hijack the plane.
btw, NS was also acquitted of the charges that Musharraf was framing him for.
then, maybe you should educate yourself, no? before getting all bent out of shape?
apart from Fatima Bhutto’s delusions, what other proof is there? lots of long time PPP loyalists have rubbished the claim that BB or Zardari had anything to do with this.
do you realize how retarded it is to measure a govt’s success by the stock market? the stock market moves mostly because of sentiment. I work in this industry. the TSX goes up and down a few hundred points each day just because of how investors feel that day. does that make Harper a good or a bad PM? neither.
more to eat eh… well seems like you’ve conducted some pretty scientific studies to measure that… so I don’t know what to say.
are you for real? Shortcut Aziz was the man at the centre of the Steel Mills scandal. Shortcut Aziz is the reason Iftikhar Chauhdry was finally thrown out. he was NOT clean.
if you think Mir is pro-NS… you have a lot to learn about Pakistani politics. Mir might not even be pro-Pakistan. how could he be for any Pakistani political party? there is something very wrong with Mir.
Re: Zardari - The most hated person in Pakistan !!
Sorry your defences are totally shattered on this one…
I’d like to call the well known cricketplayer into this debate now thats a Taliban supporter my friend…
Assuming i am a supporter of the Taliban is about as close as you have to any defence…
Sorry but your totally wrong on that my friend… 
If anything i have more reason than most to hate them… for your information my brother was killed fighting those Wahabi scum.
However i would say Zardari is far lower than any Talib scum of today and i say that wholeheartedly and with confidence.
The Taliban never lost and always helped thier own side… Zardari leeches of his own people and is a clever murderous man who has got into the seat of power on a trail of corruption and blood of the Bhutto fammily.
The way your defending that Zardari makes me think sometimes of what my elders used to say… 
I read your thread and I am dumbfounded yet again. Basically watever I posted as opinions and what I have precieved the country to be runing as you think of that as something so ludicurous that it can not be true where as all you are posting yourself is opinions and nothing more than that.
First of all, you are measuring BB’s patriotism by the amount of close survived which was 1. Musharraf survived two, that doesn’t mean he was more patriotic.
About nawaz sharif, he was not going to be hanged. He was sentenced to life imprisonment. No wanted to kill him. There was enough foreign pressure to keep him alive. After he was sentenced a life imprisonment he cut a deal with the kings and princes in KSA to go there and sign all the papers that he did.
As far as Bhutto senior is concerned, do not get me started there. He became a PM when he wasn’t even elected by a majority and we lost bangladesh on his watch. I was not born then to know enough to say whether he should have been hanged or not but his credentials are not very impressive if you ask me.
Again, if the kargil issue was Musharraf’s brain child then it shows poor leadership on NS’s part who can not control his generals and when we were in a position to actually win that war. He succumbed to the foreign pressure and we were forced to come down from thsoe posts and lost however many soldiers that we did. Again I am assuming that if this plan was Musharraf’s brainchild then he actually wanted to hold to the posts that had a tactical advantage. Maybe?
Again I wasnt’ getting hell bent on the two cases I didn’t know about. I gave you the benefit of the doubt on those that you probably were right there so I don’t really know what the argument there is.
As far as stock exchange and foreign reserves are concerned, as you said you work in TSX and you probably know more about them. From whatever little I know they do show up to a certain level the stability with in the country and how investors (especially foreign) see it as a place for investing their money. In that regard Pakistan was deemed to be a safe place for them to invest their money which resulted in the index being high. High investment usually means more money is there to do business, usualy resulting in more jobs and a stable economy which is vital for any country. Again I am an engieer so I am not entirely sure about economics but this is my understanding of it.
As far as shaukat aziz is concerned, the guy is inifinitismally more qualified than all these other scumbags combined. Again that doesn’t make him any less corrupt or anything. But thats the only prime minister who didn’t actually get kicked out he stepped down instead. Also, the only prime minister who didn’t have any cases filed against him. Atleast you can give him that credit.
Other than that its just your opinion against mine. Since politics is never black and white and usually different shades of gray. So, which gray is lighter and which is darker pretty much rests on opinion and I am sure I can not change your opinion on this forum just as you can’t change mine.
Re: Zardari - The most hated person in Pakistan !!
wow so this thread turned in to more mod bashing than anything else . Well I stated few facts , and feeling of people that I met today . These people include workers of state owned television station , and they have real passion to hate Zardari :D . . . I was telling them that how hypocrite they are , and they were like ''yaar nokri bhe tu kerni ha ha'' :D
But again few people like to live in their own little bubble . :)
Re: Zardari - The most hated person in Pakistan !!
Naaman you stated nothing wrong… you highlighted a view which is silently pondored by millions of Pakistanis at this moment.
All you did was voice the thoughts of the people 
I read your thread and I am dumbfounded yet again. Basically watever I posted as opinions and what I have precieved the country to be runing as you think of that as something so ludicurous that it can not be true where as all you are posting yourself is opinions and nothing more than that.
First of all, you are measuring BB's patriotism by the amount of close survived which was 1. Musharraf survived two, that doesn't mean he was more patriotic.
About nawaz sharif, he was not going to be hanged. He was sentenced to life imprisonment. No wanted to kill him. There was enough foreign pressure to keep him alive. After he was sentenced a life imprisonment he cut a deal with the kings and princes in KSA to go there and sign all the papers that he did.
As far as Bhutto senior is concerned, do not get me started there. He became a PM when he wasn't even elected by a majority and we lost bangladesh on his watch. I was not born then to know enough to say whether he should have been hanged or not but his credentials are not very impressive if you ask me.
Again, if the kargil issue was Musharraf's brain child then it shows poor leadership on NS's part who can not control his generals and when we were in a position to actually win that war. He succumbed to the foreign pressure and we were forced to come down from thsoe posts and lost however many soldiers that we did. Again I am assuming that if this plan was Musharraf's brainchild then he actually wanted to hold to the posts that had a tactical advantage. Maybe?
Again I wasnt' getting hell bent on the two cases I didn't know about. I gave you the benefit of the doubt on those that you probably were right there so I don't really know what the argument there is.
As far as stock exchange and foreign reserves are concerned, as you said you work in TSX and you probably know more about them. From whatever little I know they do show up to a certain level the stability with in the country and how investors (especially foreign) see it as a place for investing their money. In that regard Pakistan was deemed to be a safe place for them to invest their money which resulted in the index being high. High investment usually means more money is there to do business, usualy resulting in more jobs and a stable economy which is vital for any country. Again I am an engieer so I am not entirely sure about economics but this is my understanding of it.
As far as shaukat aziz is concerned, the guy is inifinitismally more qualified than all these other scumbags combined. Again that doesn't make him any less corrupt or anything. But thats the only prime minister who didn't actually get kicked out he stepped down instead. Also, the only prime minister who didn't have any cases filed against him. Atleast you can give him that credit.
Other than that its just your opinion against mine. Since politics is never black and white and usually different shades of gray. So, which gray is lighter and which is darker pretty much rests on opinion and I am sure I can not change your opinion on this forum just as you can't change mine.
Not to pick on you but your post has tonnes of factual errors. Like for instance Shortcut Aziz didnt step down, his term ended. Also, are you forgetting the illegally acquired lavish farmhouses case against him? There is a reason why he wont visit Pakistan.
Re: Zardari - The most hated person in Pakistan !!
Still dude first one to step down because his term ended .... everyone else was either killed or kicked out ... as far as I know there is no case proceedings going on against him right now.
Re: Zardari - The most hated person in Pakistan !!
Zardari is the only President elected in Pakistan's History that is a convicted criminal.
And that is fact.