Your leaders are all homo`s

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Braveheart: *

Also do immans have any formal training of any sort like priests do?
[/QUOTE]

Braveheart, they are supposed to, but without a real hierarchy of mosques i.e. some group looking at qualifications and all, its a free for all unfortunately. In majority of the cases the imams are trained, and a good number are educated in religious studies as well as other areas like sociology, hisotry and even sciences.

The challenge in Uk etc has been that immigrants are focused on careers that pay them high. Imaam type positions were not usually high paying so very few locals went towards that route and thus created a situation where to serve the population u had to build mosques and could nto find local imaams and thus imporated them. most work out fine but some are psychos like this character.

Imaams not beign trained is a much bigger issue in Pakistan (and other msulsim countries) where especially in rural areas pretty much anyone can become an imaam. many ppl who go for those roles are those who could nto make it in any other field, and thatw as their only ticket. So we are not talking about quality ppl here, and not really educated and aware people. Tahst why when you hear stories of some islamic preacher saying lame stuff in some remote village in pakistan. the guy probably has never traveleld abroad, knws nothing of the world and has basic religious education of reading the quran and hadeeth from untrained ppl like himself without really getting an education..a structured program in divinity or theology.

Programs in religious studies are available, but a stereotypical village mullah has never set foot in a highschool let alone a theological university program.

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Thanks for the info Judge.You know reading your last post i have to say that it worries me,because these guys have the ear of the muslim youth and this may be the only "education"that they recieve.

It certainly makes it easier for me to understand some of the young men i hear spewing hate without having any real consept of the whole picture,i mean they are hardly to blame if all they are taught is to hate what else can they believe,unless they have travelled the world and learn for themselves all they can do is repeat what they have been taught.Its a real shame,if you ask me.Please forgive me if i havn`t made myself as clear as i would like but i have just woken.

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Braveheart

You are correct. This hatred is a big problem, its been on world stage at some levels shoruded in political movements promising a better tomorrow for its supporters.

The situation has been really tough domestically. In pakistan diff sects and schools ofbthought, all claiming to be muslim have killed and harassed each other for decades. If you go to the religion forum even on this website and look at any thread which talks about muslim sects you will see that tension there even in the educated people.

Musharraf has done one great thing. i.e. regulation of madrassas just like schools, so teh curriculum is standardized or must meet minimum standards and has to include theology, physical sciences, lnaguage etc. A typical madrassa in past just made kids memorize the quran with little undersdtanding of it and had them read the hadeeth. There is no real discussion or critical thinking and analysis, but just indoctrination by the ppl who run these madrassas.

So currently and in past one poisoned mind infected hundreds that go through this, and when they were unleashed on public they started affecting the simpletons who look up to them as some sort of religious authorities. I have had the chance to debate issues with some of these ppl during my travels and they have no ability to answer questions. You ask the "why" question 3 times and their answers are exhausted.

Another issue that is present is the ability for expression, the reason why some of these groups have gotten some supporters is because in some countries they do not have means for political expression. These psedo-religious-political :leaders" is all that is there. Not being able to say a whole hell of a lot openly against their own regimes e.g. in saudi arabia, they want to focus their followers to external "foes"

In countries like Pakistan, where some of these madrassas are supported by outside entities the govt in past had not really concerned itself wityh them because teh countries who suported these madrassas i.e. saudi arabia, sent tons of money to the country as well, during Gen zia's time. additionally the "graduates" of such academies were good cannon fodder for the war in afghanistan. so these foot soldiers and their academies were in everyone's interest.

Well the war ended and you were left with many zealots who had been trained to fight eversince their childhood and now there was nothing to fight against..what do they do. Ripe pickings for groups liek Taleban and al qaeda.

anyways I can go on and on about this. of course these are my opinions.

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Thanks Mr F. It is a problem alright,do you think that muslims need a reformation, or do you think that Mushys stance will be enough to put an end to this sort of abuse,which is what i call it,nothing short of abuse of young peoples minds.Maybe that sounds over the top but i think that the teaching profesion is one in which we place a great deal of trust,we put our children in the hands of teachers and there is no trust higher than that.How bad is this in Britain and do you think we should be doing anything about it here?

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Braveheart

some reformation is needed as well as some decrease in apathy from the other muslims..the silent majority as it is called. People like I never bothered with these things because we just did not want to watse our time. Now its imperative that we get involved.

Mushy's new actions are commendable, in addition the regular public schools have been made free in some areas.

before i go further on that topic, there are 2 basic issues we are looking at

1- how to fix the present and short term future..and that is by the involvement of the silent majority.

2- how to fix the overall issue and long term future.

2 is the toughie. I mentioned that in Pakistan some places the education is being made free. Even when it was not free, it was very cheap for government schools. but with the huge poverty issues, children are wage earners too so families cant afford the loss in income if the kid goes to school and does not work.

Now..parents still feel that kid should be a little educated so they send them to a madrassa vs. a school in afternoons or when theya re very young. having the madrassas regulated will sort that mess to some level. potentially decreasing the brainwashed minds..it does not however salve the issue of brainwahsed minds that are already out there.

some of the worse madrassas with an agenda were being funded by certain sources..and they actually not only took in poor students but paid for all their expenses. for the poor parents it was a great deal, the kids however just went on to become pawns in some groups grand schemes.

This was encouraged during the war with afghanistan to get free foot soldiers..by everyone involved. essentially we all thus created a monster..or rather gave the monster some major steroids, now its become a pain.

the complete solution tosoemthing like this would have to be on an economic, social and educational level. across many nations..those who get used as pawns and those who direct the energies of their fanatics outside to protect their own throne i.e. saudi arabia and assorted monarchies.

as far as Britain goes..we have to be fair. the same laws that protected bigots from the national front protect these ppl. Do the laws need to evolve,..probably. maybe a structure needs to be set up where there are regional groups that help run the mosques not from a religiosu sense but more from an operational point of view. thus individual mosques dont get caught up in agendas of its benfactors, officials, preachers, whatever. funding sources need to be tracked, which I am glad is going on now.

There also is a bigger issue of over all societal change, as long as people will feel marginalised they will flock to groups where they are accepted in. explains why HT has gained so much ground.

It has to be a partnership between ppl and govt.

If i was a kid growing up in east end and was harrassed by racist ppl and skin heads, Would I end up becoming a follower of one of these goons, the probability is higher. disenchanted and alienated youth are ripe pickings for these guys.

as i said, both in UK and Pakistan there have to be solutions for short term and long term results.

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Thanks so much for taking the time to explain this so eloquently,you have certainly given me some valueble insights into this problem.

I have to tell you it is refreshing to be able to take part in a discussion and not a shouting match and having to defend my goverment from abuses being hurled at it,i feel this forum has changed,we used to have more conversations like these,now it seems its all about unfounded allegations and downright insults,or maybe i`m just getting old.

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Braveheart this is just my perspective, others may have very varied views of the situation and solution.

as far as protectiung your govt goes. I am a brit too and believe me its tougher to do this as a msulim. Its easy for anyone to call you a sellout.

as far as discussions go, i miss those too. I think the problem is that with many issues there is not a real progression in debate, ppl get on all tangents, no matter how ridiculous to just prove their point, Thus a simpel discussion, where even if there was not agreement there was acknowledgement of differing perspectives and viewpoints, ends up being a shouting match rather than proper discussion.

as far as you getting old. thats prolly true too :P

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Is it just me or does there appear to be more people now just cutting and pasting,which means that we are always discussing someone elses words and we cant really do anything about what someone else has said.Said cuttings are usually posted just to score some points and make the other person look bad and the twisting of other peoples words in order to prove a point has gone completely over the top,the stretches are mindbogling sometimes,YEP i am getting old,just listen to me.Il shut up,sorry for bendin your ear.
BTW i was just mentioning on another post,i dont know if you saw it but on the Discovery channel on sat and sun night at 9pm they are showing a group of programs under the titleBehind the terror`they look very interesting.

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Braveheart

this has kinda turned from a discussion to a dialogue :) I think i bored the rest away.

cut and pastes, used as proof to support one's position and sometimes in lieu of expressing one's position because the author of the cut and paste had better writing skills :)

or it can be laziness. who knows.

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Totally agree with what u have said abt the hamza charchter he needed ousting long ago, and the next step is getting those HT people to stop corrupting our youth.