You left me alone, Musharraf tells his allies

Society Pakistan & World Affairs
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Re: You left me alone, Musharraf tells his allies

Mush was welcome precisely becuz he was perceived as above politics allowing him to reform judiciary, political system etc. If after seven years u tell me he has not been able to build a single large dam for precisely the reason that we hated our politicians, then whats his excuse for being there?

Load shedding is nothing new..but I am inclined to believe the fact that a lack of capacity expansion under his govt. might have something to do with it. Ive read in papers that not a single megawatt has been added to the National Grid since 1999. :hmmm:

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Re: You left me alone, Musharraf tells his allies

:salam:

I ain’t here to pick a fight so its not my word against yours. Whether its Pakistan or his grip over it, its still Pakistan we are talking about.

You love what you have don’t you. Not some pie in the sky.

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Re: You left me alone, Musharraf tells his allies

:wsalam:

sure we r still talking abt Pakistan and we may also believe for a minute that Mush loves what he has (power, kursi and Pakistan?!) but his love for all of this at what expense, for how long and under what law?

and ur statement abt “u love what u have” is true only partially. Sure it is true in Musharraf’s case..he loves what he has..but can the same be said about the opposition? What abt the poor folks of Khi..who “have the load shedding”? or the people of Thar..who “dont have water” yet they love it? or Balochistan..they “have the resources” but not the money being generated from it?

and quandary of all quandaries..what abt that guy..whats his name Shaukat? He “has the power” yet he don’t.

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Re: You left me alone, Musharraf tells his allies

Eight years of absolute rule and lets not forget that it was fraught turmoil at all levels. His attention has always been divided between internal issues versus national security issues, which do you think is more important? Lets not be naive here to say that he is an expert in everything and capable of ruling the country single handedly.

The moment he had to form coalition, problems started propping up. So why is it that the same ruler was successful in the first term of his rule but a disaster in the subsequent term. Ofcourse the cronies surrounding him changed.

At the onset it appears we are following his rule but lets be real, no leader rules by himself. He rules on the advice of others the majority of the time. So his failure is not just his but collectively of his governments. Given this they all should be accountable and booted out, why should he be the only scape goat.

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Re: You left me alone, Musharraf tells his allies

Where does the buck stop in Pakistan, USResident?

Musharraf still gets done what serves his purpose and what he wants done. Notice, the Pemra ordinances, issued a day before the parliament was to go into session.

Also when u say that he was successful in his first term..do u mean economically, socially, politically or something else?

The justifications u give to defend him such as the internal and external turmoil were also true during the political govts..if anything they were truer then because Mush doesnt have to bother abt Army poking its nose in foreign or nuclear policy.

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Re: You left me alone, Musharraf tells his allies

At the expense of what? Karachi is no stranger to turmoil or loadshedding. Under what law, is there a law in Pakistan. I think the most hated government people in the country are probably the law enforcement people. The constituion of Pakistan and the adherence of politicians to it is a joke. Civilian rulers with majority abuse it equally i.e. Nawaz and his amendments.

People of Thar, since when did deserts have an abudance of water.

Bhai my honest opinion is that the people of Pakistan are more to blame than its rulers. Rulers are selected from amongst them. The people of Pakistan do not want to change or like anyone who changes their rules. That is the bottomline. They do not like rules in which they have to obey, they want freedom from that. Do what pleases them.

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Re: You left me alone, Musharraf tells his allies

If Karachi is no different today than it was in '99 (mind u most Mushies will hang u for saying that), then what exactly r the great leader's achievements?

there is no law in pakistan? Who is to blame for it. Surely cant be the military.

reference to thar was to point out that ur theory that people love what they have is not always true.

if u dont make mistakes, u dont learn. do u agree with that? People in Pakistan were graciously saved that hassle by regular military interventions. No democratic set up lasted long enough as any of the military regimes. If we had had an uninterrupted democratic set up from the start, things might have been better today.

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Re: You left me alone, Musharraf tells his allies

Bro, does it matter where the buck stops if the ones who will carry out the orders are incompetant. Lets say as you would like to hear, the buck stops at Musharraf. Then what? Musharraf cannot do anything by himself. He's going to delegate his decision to his subordinates, and if they screw up carrying out his tasks then whose fault really is it. The person who had the acumen to arrive at the correct decision or the one who was delegated the task and he proved to be incompetant, that would be our elite group of Politicians.

Musharraf gets done what he can but he can't get everything done. And are you going to tell me the judiciary did not get annoyed by the media as well except for the opposition judiciary representatives.

Collectively he was successful in achieving his targets. May not be 100% but definitely passed. Given the circumstances he had to drag the country out of it cannot be expected anymore. Nawaz's competance can be seen in him issuing orders to the have Musharrafs place land in India, he wanted his countries top military ranking officer to take refuge in our number one enemy country. What do you think of that?

What is the worst threat BB or Nawazs governments had to endure i.e. sanctions after the nuclear blasts. We all know Nawazs handling of the Kargil situation was a diplomatic disaster. What did BB have to face other than her own government being thrown out. The challenges Musharrafs government have had to face dwarf all those i.e. Afghan war, insurgent movements within Pakistan, earthquake, conflagarations with India, every terrorist attack in the world now has Pakistan involved in it in some way shape or form, Balochistan issues, NWFP issues etc. Musharrafs government is the first that has even attemtped to consolidate power all over Pakistan or bring it under the control of government unlike the predecessors whose politics was confined to Islamabad, Lahore, Karachi and Pindi.

The issues he is facing a resistance to legit causes which no one has ever uptaken before.

I am not saying he is all angel and that he has not made wrong decisions but comparitively if people would support him Pakistan can be a much better place. Public utitlities are of secondary important when there is no law and order in the country. This has been the tactic of the opposition to wreak havoc with the law and order of the country to bring him down. You can't expect him to make every decision right, and the one wrong one he does you want to see him burn up a stake.

In all of this mess if there is one thing I would unanimously agree is that MQM needs disbanded and obliterated completely like it never existed once we can ensure that muhajirs do not suffer racial discrimnation and the quota system goes.

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Re: You left me alone, Musharraf tells his allies

1- someone once told me that the difference between a manager and a leader is that a leader ensures that people keep working even when he himself isnt around..so at least we can see a tacit admission in ur post that musharraf is anything but a leader..forget good or bad.

2- I absolutely positively condemn Nawaz and his ganja league. I have no love lost for them or BB. Whats wrong is wrong. Musharraf's economic policy is fine and I agree with a lot of things he's done in there. Still it has to be said that Musharraf had the benefit of huge influx of money post 9/11. Just take a look at GDP growth rate b4 9/11

3- I have nothing against Mush. but I dont believe we r helping our country by staying in this autocratic system for too long. It inhibits the growth of new leadership becuz of rigged elections and controlled democracy. Given our politcal govt's didnt do much to write home abt but I dont reckon a military man could've accomplished in foreign policy what Bhutto did in 70's. rest of ur post makes sense and I am actually surprised to see a decent conversation going on over here for a change.

see u around. its too late and I am off to bed.

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Re: You left me alone, Musharraf tells his allies

Is it the great leaders top priority to make a heaven out of Karachi or should that be the top priority of the Governer of Sind? That has been my point, an institution or government or any infrastructure only works when people from top down to bottom carry out their responsibility. The grunt work of any infrastructure is not done at the top levels. Top levels are definitely responsible for giving the direction though. And could you kindly point out to me when have his directions ever been to point Pakistan towards disaster rather than away from disaster.

If the police were pulled from the ranks of the military personnel then maybe you could have blamed them but its the civilian personnel who enter the police, isn't. Have you ever seen any developed country's people blaming their military for corrupt police.

Your reference is understood. Despite all their difficulty they still love what they have. And how is Musharraf different then.

Yes I agree. And if people are to learn from history then why was everyone breathing a sigh of relief when Musharraf first took over. People should have come out on the streets in protest as they are now no matter how asinine the democratic government had become rather than trading it for a military dictator.

I agree that the military should not be part of the political arena unless defense is mandated but then the burden is also on the civilian segment of society to prove they are capable of running the country and adhering to the policies they chalk out.

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Re: You left me alone, Musharraf tells his allies

[QUOTE]

Is it the great leaders top priority to make a heaven out of Karachi or should that be the top priority of the Governer of Sind?

[/QUOTE]

Governor Sindh!
The criminal who was brought by Musharraf from London, got baptized and cleansed and became a governor.

The person responsible for murder of 40 plus people in Karachi.

The Random Thread
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Re: You left me alone, Musharraf tells his allies

Firstly, Yahya Khan also manned a post some day and Musharraf hasn't patroled borders all his life, he has likely spent major part sitting in officers mess planning to become chief executive.

Paindoo list...
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Re: You left me alone, Musharraf tells his allies

It just confirms that Musharraf is not running for President in the coming elections.

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Re: You left me alone, Musharraf tells his allies

There is no doubt that Musharaf is a patriotic Pakistani... He is as much Pakistani then any of us...
The problem is that he got himself involved in politics which has turned him into a corrupt dictator...

~~~ Missing someone ~~~
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Re: You left me alone, Musharraf tells his allies

Politics is very active these days, but I still am not convinced that opposition can bring harmony to the situation. They can cry all they want about why people are still supporting the President, but one thing they can not answer, which is an alternative.

All they have given us is blame game. Problem is current government have made too many mistakes in a short span of time, which is why opposition has the momentum and government is having trouble gathering support from either Pakistan or overseas. The more they try to stop it, the more it backfires. Result, more consessions.

For past 4-6 years, same people, leaders and political parties were going through their own turmoil of inner differences and bad publicity. Musharraf and his government had all the support. It is sign of times. Opposition survived so will this government.

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Re: You left me alone, Musharraf tells his allies

Wait! Nepotism, Corruption, Money Laundering, Intervention in Judiciary, etc were mistakes committed by our innocent politicians before and now they are crimes. These were crimes before and crimes now!

Musharraf has lead through one of the most difficult periods of governance in Pakistan; successfully or not is another debate. To me and most of the Pakistanis (despite what many claim here), he has done better than our corrupt politicians. He has tackled some of the most controversial issues in Pakistan. I agree the way they were handled was not appropriate in many cases, but you have to start somewhere.

Economic growth always comes with inflation and price increases.

~~~ Missing someone ~~~
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Re: You left me alone, Musharraf tells his allies

I completely agree to this. The governor making the statement, that we should forget about the killing and start anew, was pathetic. He should have been made to resign and to face a court of law for that statement.

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Re: You left me alone, Musharraf tells his allies

Musharraf left his original vision and so even the lotas are leaving him now.

!ZaRa BoL Kar DiKhAo!
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Re: You left me alone, Musharraf tells his allies

My response was not meant to qW,..,.M

Oops! That was my son trying to reply.

:salam:

My bad bro, my statement was not clear enough. It was a general statement about the responsibility of improving provincial cities should be the first priority of the Provincial ministers and governers. Unfortunately, I have to use Nawaz as an example here for what he did to Lahore. And I agree Ishrat ul Ibad is no prime candidate for carrying out such a mandate.

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Re: You left me alone, Musharraf tells his allies

Musharraf's "vision" is what gave birth to Kargil and a burning FATA and Balochistan. This same "vision" made us hang our heads in shame when Mukhtaran mai was victimized again and again by our government. The man fooled us all but he can only do so for so long.

The lotas were all with him during those times. They are leaving now because a lota's sole purpose is to wash the winner's rear and they are sensing that Musharraf may no longer be the winner. As soon as the next Jarnail comes in, the lotas will be ready to be "rear guards" for him.