Women wearing short, tight or see-though clothes

[quote]
Originally posted by NYAhmadi:
**K-2, where have you read about Greek and Roman treatment of women? Pandora is a “mythological” character, and there are millions of other female Gods in both Greek and Roman myths. Don’t spread false information.

If hijab is mandatory for men in Islam, how come you don’t see Muslim men walking down the street in the d-head shape Burqa like the Afghan women are forced to wear? You are also suggesting that seeing someone in provocative clothing very easily excites Muslim males. It is not girls’ fault, but those who have bad intentions and bad disposition. There are many ancient civilizations where both men and women don’t cover themselves (check out some aboriginal, Incas, Dingas, etc.,) and the concept of rape doesn’t exist in those cultures. So your argument about hijab as a prevention of rape is absolutely false. The reason you see overwhelming number of rape cases in the USA is because they are “reported”, in places like Pakistan, the rape goes in overwhelming majority of times “unreported” because of the society’s perception of it – which usually blames a “women” even when she is raped. **
[/quote]

I agree with K-2 becuase you can say what ever you want to satisfy yorself but the fact of the mater is what quraan say's is what the truth is And women w/out hijaab is more likely to be the victm of such horrible
crime.
I disagree with your theory that its not women fault then, use your common sence if it was so than Allah did not have to make this rule.

By the way SalmanKhan_Mozlem, your rebuttal is utterly unrelated as to what i have said. I do not listen to any molvi's i listen and read logic. Not gibberish (mind you that I'm not saying what you've said is gibberish). By the way, if you care bring up a valid point which actually brings justice to what i have said otherwise don't copy and past unrelated hadiths. Keep in mind I'm not starting a rageful discussion. If this persists in any other direction other than what the topic is then i'll just let it be.


Jitna Diya Sarkar Nay Mujko, Itni Meri Auqat Nahi, Yeh Saab Tumhara Karam Hai Aqa, Mujh Mein Aisi Koi Baat Nahin.

Love happens once . . .

[quote]
Originally posted by CocoNut:
**I don't mean to intrude on this endless discussion but I have to get a point across here.

Something really bothered me as to what Salmankhan_Mozlem said, he stated that

"In my life specially, my studies and my career has always been down at times due to the allurement of girls unfortunately.! The ones who dont do purdah and stuff. Toba."

So lets think about it logically, why wasn't your gaze lowered? Why blame only the women for your misfortune? Aren't you responsible for checking her out? Did you gaze not wander?

Fact of the matter is, instead of continuously bombarding WOMEN with this "PURDAH" why not teach the guys out there who like looking under the purdah as well. No wonder the women in our culture and religion complain that they are not given any freedom because of this constant bombardment. We have to look at both genders, only in that way is it treated equally!

Living in a westernized society there is hardly any purdah, so your saying the women who are not even muslim, who don't believe in Islam should cover themselves for you sake, so that it may not lead you to misfortune.

In this world there will always be temptations whether it be a girl or something else its up to us to figure out what is good and bad. It takes both genders to do the Islamically logical thing and if not one then surely the other must try instead of blaming the other for their lifes misfortune.

To a certain extent I am sorry to say I agree with Infoman because he said let them do whatever the hell they want to. Why do I agree with him? Because they are held for their actions, and so will you. If you see it unfit for you livelihood that this kind of exposure is bad for you then go else where. Surely, you will be held accountable for the deed you've done by avoiding a sin such as gazing at the women. While she will be held accountable for her deed.

All in all, stop bashing women if you can't do your part. Because then your another double standard.

I hope I have not offended anyone by saying what I have, please forgive me if this angers you but don't you think what I've said is right? without the hadiths and everything else.

**
[/quote]

All for those who Believe In Quraan None For those who believe in Liberty.
Bibi gussa Na khaye Yahann per momin Aurat ki baat ho rahe hay Aur aurat ko us ka moqaam samjhaaney ki koshish ho rahey like I said This for those Who believe in Quraan not for Non muslims .
Hamare Nabi (PBOH) nay farmaya hay kay Jahill say Islaam per Behas nai kerni Chaheye
oos Kay leye dua Kerni Chaheye , is leye ke Us ki zabaan say nikla hoa ek gulut lafz us ko kharijul Islaam ker sakta hay.

mujhai kuch samajh nahin aarahi kya ho raha hai. koi keh raha hai key mera reply ‘curious reply’ hai aur koi kuch aur.

i just said a simple thing. That muslim women should cover themselves up now as they used to do in the early times of Islam. This is better for them if they understand.

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O there are many excuses our muslim sisters have for not wearing hijab, it was there on a website. Very interesting ones. I’ll try to get it and paste it here Inshallah.

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A person can just advise others about the good things and their results. After that its up to the people to act upon it or leave it. One’s deeds are for one’s own self.

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Ws’salamZ

So far one seems to be getting what I’m saying but I must say that Salmankhan_Mozlem has said something very sensible whether he meant it or not, A person can just advise others about the good things and their results. After that its up to the people to act upon it or leave it. One’s deeds are for one’s own self. Well, Salman what you’ve said is correct but you should follow it as well. Advise don’t patronize

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  • Are you implying something towards me Sonydharti?

All for those who Believe In Quraan None For those who believe in Liberty.
Bibi gussa Na khaye Yahann per momin Aurat ki baat ho rahe hay Aur aurat ko us ka moqaam samjhaaney ki koshish ho rahey like I said This for those Who believe in Quraan not for Non muslims .
Hamare Nabi (PBOH) nay farmaya hay kay Jahill say Islaam per Behas nai kerni Chaheye
oos Kay leye dua Kerni Chaheye , is leye ke Us ki zabaan say nikla hoa ek gulut lafz us ko kharijul Islaam ker sakta hay.


Jitna Diya Sarkar Nay Mujko, Itni Meri Auqat Nahi, Yeh Saab Tumhara Karam Hai Aqa, Mujh Mein Aisi Koi Baat Nahin.

Love happens once . . .

very informative post saadia

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i dont want to repeat what has already been said. We Muslims know that modesty, for both men and women, has been prescribed by Al-Quran and for us, there’s nothing more sacred than the Word of Allah(swt).
as for some people like infoman and others or any non-Muslims who dont agree, all i can say is that its better to mind ur business and let us practice/observe and spread the teachings of Islam. People have no right to judge Muslims and hijabi women by their standards of the female ‘showpiece’
once u judge a Muslim as imposing his/her values on others, u judge Islam. If a Muslim woman choses to walk around half-naked, no one can force her to be modest…she’ll face the consequences. All we as Muslims can do is to propagate what Islam teaches…which includes an opposition to coercion.

Al-Quran..Surah 109 (the Disbelievers)**"To you be your Way, and to me mine. **


**~~I’m not going to ask if you just said what I think you just said because I know it’s what you just said.~~**DS

[This message has been edited by hk (edited April 14, 2001).]

[quote]
Originally posted by CocoNut:

  • Are you implying something towards me Sonydharti?

Hamare Nabi (PBOH) nay farmaya hay kay Jahill say Islaam per Behas nai kerni Chaheye
oos Kay leye dua Kerni Chaheye , is leye ke Us ki zabaan say nikla hoa ek gulut lafz us ko kharijul Islaam ker sakta hay.

**
[/quote]

No please don't misunderstand I was not refering to u I was generaly speeking for everyone who is trying to covnway the message to those who have there own (daar eent ki musjid) I did'nt mean to hurt your feelings at all.
Please eccept my apology Thanks

accha i never knew infoman waz a non mozlem.

ok thanx for letting me know

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sony kya bool rahi ho tum? hein?

oay cant u just rephrase it to May Allah forgive you for your sins (mine) and dont hold me accountable for any but just make me enter Al Firdus without any reckoning!! ( 70,000 people will enter like that) i wanna b one of them

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make dua for me everybodyyyyy plz.

I wonder if all the gals who wrote in this post wear hijab or not .

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/confused.gif

. just wondering!! ghussa honey ki zaroorat nahin tum larkiyo ko !


“Those who believed (in the Oneness of Allaah — Islamic Monotheism), and whose hearts find rest in the remembrance of Allaah verily, in the remembrance of Allaah do hearts find rest

[al-Ra’d 13:28]

I don’t want to be redundant because almost everyone has stated the same points.
Firstly, the word of Allah(swt) comes before anything else, and whatever Allah(SWT) enforces upon the ummah always has a logical reasoning behind it. It is for this reason that Allah(SWT) has made a dress code for women. A girl is only protecting herself when she follows the islamic code.

Someone stated above that its a mans fault to gaze upon girls dressed in tight, see-through clothes. Well, going back to pakistan i myself saw preverted men gazing upon every girl who was fully and modestly clothed.

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It sickened me to the stomach. Imagine the reaction of these men if they were to look upon a girl wearing extremely tight and see through clothes. You can’t go to every man and teach them not to look at women in such manner, there must be a way of prevention. There must be boundries set to follow. So if tomorrow its accepted in western society to wear nothing at all, eventually it’ll be accepted by all that its part of an individual’s freedom to dress or not to dress at all.

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You know I must compliment this thread, for the first time I’m actually interested in a thread without anyone badgering at each other in endless arguments. Kudos to you all for a good discussion. It makes me happy to see this that we’ve gotten along.

Throughout this entire discussion we all agree that in Islam, women and men should protect themselves and for those who don’t they are held for their actions. So all in all a big

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Jitna Diya Sarkar Nay Mujko, Itni Meri Auqat Nahi, Yeh Saab Tumhara Karam Hai Aqa, Mujh Mein Aisi Koi Baat Nahin.

Love happens once . . .

[This message has been edited by CocoNut (edited April 14, 2001).]

One thing that i dont understand about here in the west is that the women WANT to be judged by their looks. Being a guy, I find this very aukward. Well, I am in engineering and i depend on my skills as a student to pregress, i depend on my brain to work study and play. I do not want to be judged by my looks. I want to be judged by what I do. Luckilly, in this world, men are hardly judged by their looks (except when the dress in a way that shows their state of being, examples being homeless and in other cases when the guy is really fat). Now for a women it is really different. The most important this for a women is to be desired. Now as a women, if you are good looking then all is well, until you age, and then you are replaced by a younger model for your now ex-husband/boyfriend.

The ironic thing is that you can not sociall force a man to dress in skin tight clothes or mini skirts. If a man diets, it is because of health reasons. Women diet fot appearence.

In the west, the men have nothing to loose, all the women strip for them for free, all you need to do is to sit in the park and enjoy the show!

Now looking at the society here in the west, you see what happens if there is "freedom". "freedom" where men dictate the terms to the women on how to dress, how much to expose for the mens viewing pleaseure. I see a women in a tight mini-skirt, i dont think of her as a person but a a walking talking toy that people use and then throw away... I see a women in hijab, she becomes my sister.

In this society an old man you is butt ugly can get married/go out with to the hottest 19 year old in the city. This is because he is not judged by his looks! Lucky guy? Now what about a 50 year old women, what is to become of her.

I live with canadains in rez, my suite-mates. Now to them, this is all perfect. They get to enjoy the show for free, both of them are doing good in school. But for a girl, she has to make a constant effort in looking good, dressing in a certain way, not looking bad but at the same time not looking like a whore!?

Now think of what Islam says and it will all make perfect sense.

Jazaks.

[quote]
Originally posted by Infoman:
** Gee......how can we go against that logic?

Give me a break. Don't believe everything you read!**
[/quote]

Don't believe everything you read? Okay, good idea we should ignore you.


We are the Taleban-Resistance is Futile
Sin: Osama Bin Junior

SalamZ

Praise be to Allah.

brother topee, i guess thats what i wanted to express for the reply of sonydharti’s freedom thread, but i couldnt.

[QUOTE]
Originally posted by sonydharti:
**
Fact of the matter is, instead of continuously bombarding WOMEN with this “PURDAH” why not teach the guys out there who like looking under the purdah as well. No wonder the women in our culture and religion complain that they are not given any freedom because of this constant bombardment. We have to look at both genders, only in that way is it treated equally!
**

Sonydharti, we are just advising our sisters and mothers (muslims) about the horrible results that come out from not having purdah. Ok they are free to do but its our duty to advise them cuz if we dont then we might be held responsible for it.

what do u mean by women complain that they dont have enough freedom in relgion? AStaghfirullah. A muslim woman should be happy and content with the religion of her Lord. If one has a doubt in Allah’s law then

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The Satan-the rejected, is lucky because now a days this is the attitude , let them do whatever they want. But at the early times of Islam, this was almost the law that every muslim lady had to cover herself before going out for any reasons.

I am putting a new thread about hijab from a paper written by a scholar. Refer to it for details.


“Those who believed (in the Oneness of Allaah — Islamic Monotheism), and whose hearts find rest in the remembrance of Allaah verily, in the remembrance of Allaah do hearts find rest

[al-Ra’d 13:28]

As-salaamu alaikum,

wow… i see the topics havent changed a bit

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so how’s everyone?

well.. i just very recently did an article on hijab titled : Hijab: Culture or Religion? i learned a quite bit while doing it. actually it was done due to the fact that a person i knew thought that the word “hijab” does not include “head covering”. and he proved it in a way by using inadequate sources and misinterpretations of the Holy Qur’an to do so.

here’s an exerpt from my article:

There is no god worthy of worship except God and Muhammad is His
messenger. The Shahada, a declaration of faith that unites all
Muslims. It is the core of Islam upon which everything else is based. In
the Arabic language,
the first part is la ilaha illa Llah - ‘there is no god except
God’; ilaha (god) can refer to anything which we may be
tempted to put in place of God - wealth, power, and the like. Then comes
illa Llah: ‘except God’, the source of all Creation. The second
part of the Shahada is Muhammadun rasulu’Llah: ‘Muhammad is the
messenger of God.’ A message of guidance has come through a man like
ourselves.
(IslamiCity - The Global Muslim eCommunity)

It is this basic declaration of faith steers the life of a Muslim and
towards his or her submission towards Allah. Even in the Quran, the Holy
Book for Muslims, Allah reminds us that …and know that Laa ilaaha ill
Allah (that there is no deity worthy of worship but Allah)…" (49:19,
20:8, 3:18, 59:22-3). The Holy Quran is a Book that surpasses the test of
time; it is applicable to all people of all regions of the world. It is
the pinnacle of linguistic perfection where expression was worded in the
shortest of forms without loss of clear meaning [bayan].

There are other issues within Islam that seem a bit more complex,
or they are made to seem complex. An example of this is the issue of
Hijab. Hijab comes from the verb hadjaba which means to hide from view,
conceal and it is used of any veil placed in front of a person or in an
object in order to conceal it from view or to isolate it. (Lewis,
359) The word hijab occurs in the Quran seven times and as Lewis puts it
the Kuran, though it is found there only seven times, provides as valuable
information on the basic and metaphorical meaning of the term as it does,
to a certain extent, to its evolution. (Lewis, 359) One verse that
includes a word related to

the concept of hijab, that is jilbab or outer garments, is in Surah
Al-Azhab (33) verse 59:
[33:59] O Prophet! Tell thy wives and daughters, and the believing
women, that they should cast their outer garments
over their person (when abroad): that is most convenient, that they should
be known (as such) and not molested. And Allah is Oft-
Forgiving, Most Merciful.
(The Holy Qur’an, trans. Yusuf Ali)

    As it was stated earlier, the Holy Quran is the pinnacle of

linguistic perfection where expression was worded in the shortest of forms
without loss of clear meaning [bayan]. This is evident within this verse
as well. One translator who has broken this verse down to the core of
each letter is Sayyid Abul A’la Mawdud’i. As Kidwai states in an article
written in The Muslim World Book Review, Mawdudis work helps one develop
an understanding of the Qur’an as a source of guidance. He further goes
on to state that his logical line of argument, generous sensibility,
judicious use of classical Muslim scholarship and practical solutions to
the problems of the day combine to show Islam as a complete way of life
and as the Right Path for the whole of mankind. (Kidwai)
And so, as
Mawdudi comments on this verse:

            Jilbab is a large sheet and idna is to draw close and wrap

up, but when this word is used with the
associating particle ala, it gives the meaning of letting something down
from above. Some modern translators, under the influence
of the West, have translated this word to wrap up so as to avoid
somehow the Command about covering of the face. But if Allah had meant
what these gentlemen want to construe, He would have
said : yudnina ilai-hinna and not yudnina alai-hinna. Anyone
who knows Arabic knows that yudnina alai-hinna cannot merely mean
wrapping up. Moreover, the words min
jalabib-i hinna also do not permit of this meaning.
It is obvious
that the preposition min here signifies a part of the sheet, and this
also that wrapping up is done by means of a whole
sheet and not merely by a part of it. The verse, therefore, clearly means this: The women should wrap themselves up well in their sheets, and
should draw and let down a part of the sheet in front
of the face. (Mawdudi, 149-150)

Mawdudi further goes on to state that the same meaning was understood by
the major commentators who lived close to the time of the Holy
Prophet. (Mawdudi, 150). Mawdudi also comments on another verse in the
Holy Quran which uses another related term, khimar, or veil. This verse
in Surah An-Nur follows:

            [24:31]. And say to the believing women that they should

lower their gaze and guard their
modesty; that they should not display their beauty and ornaments except
what (must ordinarily) appear thereof; that they should draw
their
veils over their bosoms and not display their beauty
except to their husbands, their fathers, their husband’s fathers, their sons, their husbands’ sons, their brothers or their
brothers’ sons, or their sisters’ sons, or their women, or the slaves whom
their right hands possess, or male servants free of
physical needs, or small children who have no sense of the
shame of sex; and that they should not strike their feet in order to draw
attention to their hidden ornaments. And O ye
Believers! turn ye all together towards Allah, that ye may attain Bliss.
(The Holy Quran, trans. Yusuf Ali)

Mawdudi correlates the verse where:
Before this in Surah An-Nur:31, the women have been
forbidden to display their adornments before others
except such and such men and women, and also that they should not stamp
their feet on the ground lest their hidden decoration
(ornaments) be known. If that command is read with
this verse of Al-Ahzab it becomes obvious that the intention of the
Command for the woman to cover herself well with the sheet here is to conceal her adornments from others.

Keeping the origins of the concept of hijab in mind as mentioned
up to now, let us now look into the other side of the argument. Many
individuals feel that the concept of hijab extends only to the outer
garments i.e. that they should draw their veils over their bosoms
(24:31), and that the veiling of women stems only from culture. What is
culture? According to the Britannica Encyclopedia, when things and events
are considered in the context of their relation to the human organism,
they constitute behaviour; when they are considered not in terms of their
relation to the human organism but in their relationship to one another,
they become culture by definition. Also, Britannica states other
individuals with definitions of culture such as Kroeber and Kluckhohn and
also by a great many other anthropologists is that culture is an
abstraction or, more specifically, an abstraction from behaviour. Keeping
this in mind, Britannica also quotes a German Roman Catholic priest and
anthropologist, Father Wilhelm Schmidt, who argued not only that some
primitive peoples believe in a Supreme Being but that monotheism was
characteristic of the earliest and simplest cultures. If culture stems
from a religious source, is the behavior of an individual within that culture a product of that culture or of that religion?
We will all return to Allah one day. If we use our faith in
Allah, our submission towards Allah, the Quran as a lens to view the world
with, and the Hadith as a fine tuner of that lens, we will be able to see
the big picture and overcome the misunderstandings that exist within our
Ummah. Allah (swa) gives us all that we have now, all that we are
presenting acquiring, and all that we will get in the future. He places
the veil in places where you would never expect it. But then again, who
are we to expect? All glory is to Allah, the Most Beneficent, the Most
Merciful.

-mehndi

no offence to you directly brother, but i’d just like to make a point…

it’s interesting that most pple who base their hatred towards women and to keep them apart from Islam seems like they base it around this Hadith. yet they shy from treating their wives the “best” as said by the Prophet (peace be upon him) in another Hadith.

-mehndi

[quote]
Originally posted by mehndi:
**no offence to you directly brother, but i'd just like to make a point...

it's interesting that most pple who base their hatred towards women and to keep them apart from Islam seems like they base it around this Hadith. yet they shy from treating their wives the "best" as said by the Prophet (peace be upon him) in another Hadith.

-mehndi

**
[/quote]

hatred? i love two things, women (legal way) and perfumes.

JAzakallah Kheir.


“Those who believed (in the Oneness of Allaah — Islamic Monotheism), and whose hearts find rest in the remembrance of Allaah verily, in the remembrance of Allaah do hearts find rest

[al-Ra’d 13:28]