***I recently had an argument with a group of anti-Islam atheists (friends on facebook) prompted by the post below. I am including the discussion for everyone else’s benefit
Lauren, my previous comment was only partially adressing the post. I wanted to first clarify, that the Quran only advices to abstain from sex during menses for several obvious medical reasons.
Secondly, the notion of not having female judges is propagated by some of the early Jurists of Islamic law. However, the more popular among the classic jurists of the 9th and 10th century, Imaam Abu Hanifa, and Imaam Shafi’ clearly have explained that women CAN be judges. In fact, Abu Hanifa and Mawardi say that for a Jurist in an Islamic state being a Muslim isnt even a requirement. They talk in detail about attributes of judge and honesty, intellect and cleverness are basically the main criterion. one is free to override any cLasic scholar since they are only humans doing their best in their personal capacities. So afghanistan is using religious rhetoric to forward its own politicap agenda while Pakistan, And Bangladesh are other Muslim countries who have had women Presidents. There are also a number of female jurists in Islamic history and in current times in various countries…although they are arguably much fewer than men. This gender gap exists not because of Quran teachings, but you know world over its a boys club.
You are absolutely correct! Its actually the male chuvanist intellect that uses abusive rehetoric. Example, while Christianity is a religion of emancipation and love the corrupt intellect pervailed even after christianity reached the Eastern Roman Empire (charles the great). First they persecuted christians, after converting to christianity, they started pursuing jews. Then later, crusades against the moslem turks. Its is the same corrupt intellect that has modified pure revelation to suit the interests of the ruling class. While Quran says NOTHING new in spirit and theologically, its preserved unadulterated and free from change, so what does the corrupt chuvanistic intellect do now?? Well, ofcourse interpret according to how it sees the world. Why should you and I follow such interpretation? And you can check for youreself in the Quran. if there is anything opressive like that in it, ill walk away from Islam right away.
Actually, there are people who say and religiously argue, that even if a man has not properly washed his body he is impure and shouldnt touch the Quran. Those are just idiots. There is no state that prevents humans from approaching wisdom and knowledge(like no queation is a stupid question). In fact, not being able to approach wisdom and knowledge is actually the state of impurity
First of all thank you for bringing this up as I anticipated. Chapter 4 , An-Nisa, The Women. Arguably the first manifesto of constitutional rigts of women the world has seen. The Only religious text that dedicates an entire chapter to discuss women rigthts, women issues, and promotes an activism liberating struggle for women as early as 6th century.
To give you some perspective it was not until 1929 in Canada that women were considered as legal ‘persons’. And it was not until the ratification of the 19 amendment in 1920 that women finally had legal rights to vote in US
Now, you have slyly only partially quoted from within a complete verse. So here is the full single complete verse 4:34.
" Surah An-Nisa, Verse 34:
الرِّجَالُ قَوَّامُونَ عَلَى النِّسَاءِ بِمَا فَضَّلَ اللَّهُ بَعْضَهُمْ عَلَىٰ بَعْضٍ وَبِمَا أَنفَقُوا مِنْ أَمْوَالِهِمْ فَالصَّالِحَاتُ قَانِتَاتٌ حَافِظَاتٌ لِّلْغَيْبِ بِمَا حَفِظَ اللَّهُ وَاللَّاتِي تَخَافُونَ نُشُوزَهُنَّ فَعِظُوهُنَّ وَاهْجُرُوهُنَّ فِي الْمَضَاجِعِ وَاضْرِبُوهُنَّ فَإِنْ أَطَعْنَكُمْ فَلَا تَبْغُوا عَلَيْهِنَّ سَبِيلًا إِنَّ اللَّهَ كَانَ عَلِيًّا كَبِيرًا
Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband’s) absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (Next), refuse to share their beds, (And last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them Means (of annoyance): For Allah is Most High, great (above you all).
(English - Yusuf Ali) "
The ‘beating’ here is the final, third means of descipline ONLY if and ONLY if your girl seriously driving you off the cliff with disloyalty, cheating, lies and the worst possible one can be in a relationship. Note, verse begins with calling men as protectors and comforters of women and ends on the same note. For example, there are crimes that require punishment appropriate to the crime. There is no promotion of sadistic abuse, or torture. But if one has a abusive-mind and hate-filled intellect it would take the opportunity to read it as it fits itself. The chapter is so detailed that it intimidates men like myself. It empowers women too much!!!
If you read the statistics on domestic abuse on women in say just UK and US you will learn that almost 100% of beating up women is because of power trip, ego, frustration venting, not to correct a domestic problem where the abuser is actually the woman.
But I agree women in Muslim countries are very poorly abused physically and sexually. Egypt is one of the most disgusting place for women to walk alone in busy public places without being assaulted or groped. Its the same cou try where the ancient prestigious Islamic AlAzhar University is in. But so what? men we the same…its not Quran teachings
Let me also clarify the translations of OBEDIENCE . Its not saying slavery unless your intellect insists on reading it that way. OBEDIENCE is used in the same essence as obedience to one’s country and president in the form of patriotism, or obedience of just laws in the society like traffic laws etc, or obedience to one’s social contractual agreements example obedience to one’s just terms in employement contract, or lease contract, building permit, or obedience to student plagirism policies…
So OBEDIENCE here intends to preserve a just domestic social order NOT to subjugate just order.
but you are right if you say a patriarchihal mind will act according to its mysoginistic inclination
Nope. Didnt say that at all. Set aside your preconceived notions only for a bit and please re read what i have said..my humble request
See either you are deliberately trying to twist this or you are obviously still reading this from your customary angle.
If you read the chapter 4 in the quran, which you should at some point since you are discussing it, you will notice a strong theme of women-centric rights and freedoms. Justice, kindness and protection of one another is the theme. Not protection from just other men, but the overall general wellbeing. That obviously includes every possible right.
Now if you specially understood the status of women in Europe and Arabia, even in the Perssian and the Greeks it has been pathetic.
No where does it suggest beating as a transactional obligation. In fact, the beating or physical in here actually LIMITS it to ONLY when its a last resort restoring just social order. There is no OTHER religious text that explicitly mentions physical abuse of women and limits it to a high degree of constraint. As an example, to restore justice for certain crimes even death penalty is instituted for men and women in many states. So the criteria for harsh punishment is also strict, and it is not for sake of male ego. Again, read my entire explainations in FULL and in the end think as you wish. Gotta sleep now
Good luck
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