Women Leading Prayer - The Deeper Issue

On March 18, 2005 Amina Wadud led the first female-led Jumuah prayer. On that day women took a huge step towards being more like men. But, did we come closer to actualizing our God-given liberation?

I don’t think so.

What we so often forget is that God has honored the woman by giving her value in relation to God-not in relation to men. But as western feminism erases God from the scene, there is no standard left-but men. As a result the western feminist is forced to find her value in relation to a man. And in so doing she has accepted a faulty assumption. She has accepted that man is the standard, and thus a woman can never be a full human being until she becomes just like a man-the standard.

When a man cut his hair short, she wanted to cut her hair short. When a man joined the army, she wanted to join the army. She wanted these things for no other reason than because the “standard” had it.

What she didn’t recognize was that God dignifies both men and women in their distinctiveness–not their sameness. And on March 18, Muslim women made the very same mistake.

For 1400 years there has been a consensus of the scholars (both men and women) that men are to lead prayer. As a Muslim woman, why should this matter? The one who leads prayer is in no way spiritually superior. Something is not better just because a man does it. And leading prayer is not better, just because it’s leading.

Read the entire article

Ok ok Im done for the day. But really the site has some killer articles. :o

Re: Women Leading Prayer - The Deeper Issue

WHY ??? WHY ??? WHY ??? :mad2:

Why do people have to bring this up over and over again. Let it go already !!!
If it’s a fight you want to pick, pick something new :rolleyes:

Re: Women Leading Prayer - The Deeper Issue

I am going to paraphrase (probably butcher) something I read on an Islamic website because I can't remember the exact wording, but it was perfect for this.

Women and men have equal jobs as asssigned by God. Women have the job of ushering souls into the world and developing them, while men have the job of developing souls with the purpose of ushering them out to God.

I really liked that, puts things in perspective in a personal way.

Disclaimer: Others may not agree, that's fine, this is just something that I like :) not an arguement for or against women leading prayer

Re: Women Leading Prayer - The Deeper Issue

^interesting

Re: Women Leading Prayer - The Deeper Issue

You’re lucky I didnt open a thread about hijab. Dont tempt me. I am here to make you lot think and most of the time my threads bring out peoples true colours. I think Im doing a good deed here. :stuck_out_tongue:

Re: Women Leading Prayer - The Deeper Issue

^^ Hooligan :rolleyes:

Re: Women Leading Prayer - The Deeper Issue

[quote]
As a Muslim woman, why should this matter? The one who leads prayer is in no way spiritually superior.
[/quote]

as a Muslim man why should it matter which sex leads the prayer.. the one who leads the prayers is no way spiritually superior and so forth.. the same argument flat on it's face..

next

Re: Women Leading Prayer - The Deeper Issue

why make such a fuss over it....

misguided muslims have brought out new prophets, corrections to Quran, etc etc and now they came up with a woman imam....
let this small group live its own dream....
and be happy....

Re: Women Leading Prayer - The Deeper Issue

^ exactly, it's a non issue

Re: Women Leading Prayer - The Deeper Issue

Why can’t we raise our issue over this subject…Why must we always be the one to bury the hatchet regarding everything…

It’s not like anyone, like the contemporary historians would have you believe that Islamic history is rife with violence and war…Wars, mind you, fought with rules, face to face and for the noblest mission of all: Sacrificing yourself today for someone else’s tomorrow, without a regard for any worldly compensation…Now, that is really a higher purpose…

Historians like Tara Chand who were there when it all happened, who has documented both English rule and Mughal rule, are silenced, while toddling and ignorant historians today present to the world an ugly mirror about their version of a deranged and twisted Muslim…

And many among our midst actually believe that…

Read about the Muslims through the eyes of Guillaume de Tyr…The crusader who chronicled the life of Salahuddin Ayubi and the Muslims of that time…He was a French crusader, who was captured by the Saracens and then taken captive by both body and soul to the Muslims and even after being set free almost immediately, went back to France, and came back to live with Salahuddin…

Read on what he has to say…

Karen Armstrong, Robert Fisk, Ramsey Clark, Nelson Mandela, are all who have thousands of loyal readers, yet how many times do you hear about them?

Because all have spoken out against You-Know-Who…?:wink:

But, you hear Amina Wadud, Irshad Manji, Asraa Nomani, over and over and over again…

Hell, that saying about an empty women’s mind being the nest of the devil seems kinda true here, no? j/k:D

Man, that was some poison I spewed in my post that was deleted…Couldn’t resist…Anyways, glad it’s deleted…Thank you mods…There are some actions which piss you off initially but you later realize they were worth it…:smiley:

Anyways…Where is the guy who is counter arguing against them? All I hear are their interviews…Where is the bearded guy?

(I will post here about what happened with Newsweek later…)

One Imam of a Masjid was real smart…When they came to stir trouble in his area, he just let them do it…

I kind of failed to read anything regarding this fact…Unless however the Imam had refused them…Then you’d have CNN going full steam propagandizing and churning out headlines, milking every opportunity to cause shame to Muslims through smiling anchormen…Many here like to hear their real stories and issues from smiling anchormen…:slight_smile:

Re: Women Leading Prayer - The Deeper Issue

WHO?? Pls do tell us…:confused: Iam a great fan of all of the above except for Ramsey Clarke simply bcos havent read anything from him. So who are these guys you are hinting at??

Re: Women Leading Prayer - The Deeper Issue

I wrote a long reply and lost it…

Anyways…

Karen Armstrong was a nun who gave it up to study Islam…She’s claimed by the right to be a Muslim apologist but all she does is present her own studies to everyone…Which everyone hates because everyone knows that anyone who is anybody, is a white Christian guy…And presenting Muslims in a fair light is taboo…

Ramsey Clark is the former Attorney General and head of ANSWER (Act Now to Stop War and End Racism)…He’s looked on as an A-raab conspirilator…:smiley:

If you had Dictionary Search, all this info would be yours at the click of a mouse…

Re: Women Leading Prayer - The Deeper Issue

I dont think the issue about women wanting to be like men. That’s like saying that by women wanting to go to school…or wanting to work…or to be part of governement..they are trying to be like men (cause men were there “first”). This idea is ridiculous. Praying is part of life and part of a greater society. By allowing women up infront..it will end the masculine hegemony in religious expression. It will allow women issues to be brought front. After all, the mosque is supposed to be the place of the entire community. A women leading a prayer does not infringe on her ability to raise children..and she doesn’t have to do it during ‘that time of month’..what’s wrong in any other time?

Friday prayers take like 15 min…so what’s the fuss? Just cause the status quo is changing?

The arguments of men being “turned on” are quite ridiculous honestly. Look, no one is “hiring” supermodels to lead the prayer. These women are educated, elderly and moms at best. Guys will get as turned on as women are turned on by the 1-foot-beard-mullahs that lead the prayer. Isn’t it a crime that a women has to be faced with the sensuality of this krinkly old grandpa whose against every modern invention. Ok all jokes aside…that argument has nothing to do with women being given an opportunity to be leaders of a community (this is a human quality and not something limited to men!!). If there is such a problem with guys being turned on…seriously…just lock up your teenage boys at home..because they will be turned on by everything that moves.

How can you claim that women join the army cause men also do? What’s wrong with you? You think they will dedicate their very life..just to imitate what men ar doing? First of all..every individual is distinct and its quite wrong to presuppose their motivation as part of an all-pervasive feminist consipracy.

Leading prayer is a mark of respect..and firstmost an expression of faith. It allows one to communicate to the entire community. Women are NOT trying to “be like men”. Have you not stopped to consider that women would like to NATURALLY express themselves in terms of leadership, love for country … or the desire to work…earn a living themselves..try a different hair style…stand up on their own two feet…not be dependent on anyone. Or are all these things patented by men..and women should be shot to death were they to try anything other than cooking and breast feeding? (i know im being a little extreme with the last point..sorry)

Re: Women Leading Prayer - The Deeper Issue

exactly…live and let live

Re: Women Leading Prayer - The Deeper Issue

It makes for a very unhappy home where a woman doesn't realize her difference from men...It would make for quite a miserable existence between a man and a woman if the woman is unhappy with her femininity and her role in a Muslim society...

The activities in Islamic societies vary from culture to culture, but in all the circumstances, the activities are gender specific...

The women are most likely to be relaxed with other women as men are with other men...Also less flirtations between your kid sister and kid brother's friend...

Anyway, in Islamic societies, man and woman are assigned roles...If she follows the western tradition of 'equalizing with men', then surely, she has set a small target and an even smaller aim for her conduct...

It is Islam which has given woman the true power of being many times mightier than men...And I don't just mean sports...

Re: Women Leading Prayer - The Deeper Issue

DUH!!! I knew tht already…My inquiry was regarding your ambiguous statement “you know who”…read mt first reply please and then… La Jawab…

Re: Women Leading Prayer - The Deeper Issue

What happens if in a all male environment you have some dude’s who have a liking for their own kind…you know what I mean :hula: so how does that effect a all male prayer session? Sud the men be separated from the good looking boyzzz??

Re: Women Leading Prayer - The Deeper Issue

Lajawab,

Why would feminity of a woman be decreased by taking a leadership role? The only reason i can think is because our culture fosters the idea that leadership is a masculine "thing". Same with sports. While this is only due to our reinforcement of these ideals for ages..and the INTRINSIC nature of leadership and physical activity have nothing to do with sex.

There are good leaders and bad leaders. There are also really good sports players and really bad ones. I dont think that in the above two sentences that good can be synonymized with men and bad with women. And since they can't; it means that both men and women have the capability of being good or bad at both. If we allow both genders to participate..it just gives a greater pool from which to select people to do non-gender things.

Realisitically, the only thing a women can do that a man can't is breastfeed and give birth.
What a women can't do is give the "seed". Other than that, both genders are perfectly capable of performing any other duty. Only on "average" will one gender have a strength in one area of the other. However, this should not necessitate that the one entire gender be BLOCKED from doing something cause they on average are not on par with the other one. For example, if on average women are better at cooking...does that mean that men should not cook? Women are better caretakers of children..does that mean that men are off the hook and its the exclusive duty of a women (i'd say no..because psychologically healthy children require both parents attention) However, if men are on average better politicians (this is not proven...and im not saying its true)..then should that mean that women shouldn't be politicians?

So...honestly..WHAT is the reason why a women cannot lead the prayer? Just cause it hasn't been done does not mean that no women cannot do it in the future. That first of all is NOT even a reason. It does not explain anything excepts informs me of a historic fact not a logical argument.

me: "hey..should i buy one of those new hydrogen fuel cell cars"
random muslim brother: "its never been used before in our history"
me: "so....."
r.m.b: "well ... see...back 1400 years ago..the camel was an essential transportation; and it has been mentioned in various Surahs..and it was also integral in the solving of a dispute (refers to hadith). we cannot say that the Prophet would approve of the fuel cell car or not...and since doubt is not a good thing..we should stay safe. gets into his honda civic k..ill see you later. salaam"

[my apoligize if anyone was insulted...i am trying to be funny and illustrating my point at the same time...and..maybe its not working..]

Re: Women Leading Prayer - The Deeper Issue

^^ that example was hysterical and somewhat true, having heard a variation that didn't have the hadith quoted since my mother bought a hybrid and brought it to our neighborhood, but still...... hehehehe

Very nice well-put argument.

Re: Women Leading Prayer - The Deeper Issue

828 -- It is quite simple. Certain things are wrong in Islam. You can say they are right until you are blue in the face - it still doesnt change the religion. If a person doesnt like the rules/laws/examples/commands of Islam, so be it. By changing them or contradicting them yet saying they are still Islamic - is ridiculous to say the least.

There are many things people can see as right or they can represent it in a way to support their argument. The truth remains we have the Quran we have the Sunnah - so why go around shifting/changing things to suit our ways?

Bottom line - leading prayers is not about equality. Ive never lead prayers in all my life, but Im just as equal to any guy.