[quote]
Originally posted by kumarakn:
** [li] Thus, Hinduism EVOLVES continuously. and that is why it is referred by some scholars as "SANATANA DHARMA" - meaning, it is an "ETERNAL PRACTICE"**[/li]
[/quote]
Ibrahim says; man! you guys keep making a mockery of yourselves sometimes I wonder I should laugh or cry?
tell us what is sanatana Dharma?
Be a man tell us!!
[quote]
Originally posted by kumarakn:
**That to me is the beauty of Hinduism. It is NOT bound by books. Hinduism was never bound by one school of thought.
In fact in "Shatadarshanani" - book compiled during 3000 BC, it says, there are 6 major streams of this faith (They don't call it Hinduism then); And in addition to this there were many more minor streams.
[li] Hinduism in virtually undogmatic [/li][li] It was never founded by a person or group of persons[/li][li] Nobody is considered to be the supreme leader of Hindus[/li][li] There is no final book or website or natural phenomenon that holds the ultimate say.[/li][li] Thus, Hinduism EVOLVES continuously. and that is why it is referred by some scholars as "SANATANA DHARMA" - meaning, it is an "ETERNAL PRACTICE"[/li]
That is why I said
As in any Normal distribution of defects, where extremities constitute less than 1% of sample, today's practices - the rules that majorty of Hindu Indians agree and abide by is the exact representation of the current version of Hinduism.
[This message has been edited by kumarakn (edited August 09, 2001).]**
[/quote]
Mr Amitayus in another thread says:
[quote]
**
Please take a pen and pad and write down the definition of Hindus.
Hindus are people who believe in the Vedas and the Upanishads.
Whether they believe in idol worship or not is a matter of secondary importance.
[/quote]
**
I appears to me that it conflicts with your statement:
*[li] There is no final book or website or natural phenomenon that holds the ultimate say. *[/li]
We oughta be Changez like, don't we?
[This message has been edited by Changez_like (edited August 10, 2001).]
problems faced by women in southasia is
more to do with greediness nothing to do with religen.in no other islamic country
it happens
Estimates of the percentage of women who experience domestic violence in Pakistan range from 70 to upwards of 90 percent.42 According to HRCP, "[T]he extreme forms it took included driving a woman to suicide or engineering an `accident' (frequently the bursting of a kitchen stove) to cause her death . . . usually . . . when the husband, often in collaboration with his side of the family, felt that the dower or other gifts he had expected from his in-laws in consequence of the marriage were not forthcoming, or/and he wanted to marry again, or he expected an inheritance from the death of his wife."43 During 1997, the Lahore press reported an average of more than four local cases of women being burnt weekly, three of the four fatally.44 Police follow-up on these cases was negligible, with only six suspects taken into custody out of the 215 cases reported in Lahore newspapers during the year.45 In 1997, there was not a single conviction in a "stove-death" case in the country.46 The Lahore press also reported 265 homicides against women in the local area resulting from other forms of intrafamily violence. In the majority of cases, husbands and in-laws were responsible for the murders, while in other cases the perpetrators were brothers and fathers.47
Changez_like:
I assume you are serious with your question, unlike other bandwidth wasters! Hence, I am responding to your question.
Amitayus can be right on atleast two counts:
- ** ONE: **
Amitayus said
"Hindus are people who believe in the Vedas and the Upanishads."
He didn't say
"Hindus are people who believe ONLY in the Vedas and the Upanishads."
There are 4 Vedas, 4 more Satha Vedas, originally Upanishads were 108, and then many more were included. That is more than 120 books already.
In addition to believeing that these books are sacred, there are a whole bunch of other features, principles, practices, rituals, beliefs that need to be understood, felt and experienced to define Hindus of a particular era.
- ** TWO: **
Contradiction is a beautiful part of Hinduism. In fact, contradiction is the essence of Human race. One man's cult is another man's utopia.
Similarly, some of these sacred Hindu books beautifully contradict each other, each being right in their own context.
(For those who jump up and down that there are no contradictions in Islam, Talibani intrepretation of Islam is not accepted by many muslims in this forum)
Amitayus is not wrong. And ask him, he will acknowledge that I am not wrong either. Hinduism acknowledges this contradiction.
** The concept of god is defined as an awareness or supreme consciousness in many Hindu books, including the vedas and present day journals. If we consider that thought, anybody who is aware of god unknowingly accepts this comment of vedas to be true. But then can the person be a hindu? Is that a sufficient definition of being a Hindu?
You must also understand that Vedas were written when there was no other religion known to its authors.**
** A single thought, book, or a person, belief or a religion is just not enough for the entire world. Even if it is it cannot be relevant for ever. **
What is right for somebody may not be right for the other. and what is right today may not be right tomorrow.
Evolution of a religion does not indicate its death. People who claim that Islam will never change are just pigeons who close their eyes from an approaching cat. Islam has to evolve, and Muslims should accept that or other wise it will just become irrelevant and die. Evolution does not signify the death of the religion. It just means that the religion is becoming more mature and relevant.
Evolution of Hinduism doesn't mean it re-incarnates or re-surrects - for there is no sudden death in evolution. It symbolizes an extended METAMORPHOSIS. That is how Sanatana Dharma eternally evolves and eternally remains relevant.
If christianity had never accepted that the earth went around the sun, will it be relevant after another 200 years? But wasn't there a time when Christianity was still relevant and thought that the sun went around the earth?
Similarly, Islam after 2000 more years, would have accepted gays and lesbiaans as first rate muslims. Islam will accept that the earth is more than 4000 years old. The so called word of god would definitely have been modified - and just because it has been modified doesn't mean that is will cease to be the word of god. and just because it has to be modified wouldn't mean that it would have ceased to have become the word of god. the muslims of 4000AD would still be as religious to their Quran as you are today!
Please, please I beg, do not be offended at these statements; just try to analyse them from a third person's perspective.
In Hinduism, dog marriages would have been abolished, Caste system will be gone!
But there will still be newer issues and problems in all these religions that may have started to become irrelevant.
[This message has been edited by kumarakn (edited August 10, 2001).]
[QUOTE]
Originally posted by kumarakn:
That is how Sanatana Dharma eternally evolves and eternally remains relevant.
According to sanskrit dictionary
sanaatana = ancient
dharma = religion
the other meaning for this is
Adharma is opposition to divine law.
Dharma prevails in the laws of nature and is expressed in our culture and heritage. It is piety and ethical practice, duty and obligation. It is the path which leads us to liberation. Meaning it is divine law = Gods commandmands
This is divided into :-
1) Universal dharma is known as rita.
Universal law, is cosmic order, God's rule at work throughout the physical province.
2) Social dharma is varna dharma.
Social law, or varna dharma, consists of the occupation, duties and responsibilities we must fulfill as a member of our nation, community and family. An important aspect of this dharma is religious and moral law.
3) Human dharma is known as ashrama dharma.
Human law, or ashrama dharma, is the natural expression and maturing of the body, mind and emotions through four progressive stages of earthly life: student, householder, elder advisor and religious solitaire
4) personal dharma is svadharma.
Personal law, or svadharma, is our own perfect individual pattern in life. It is the sum of our accumulated seed karmas as they relate to the collective effect on us of rita, ashrama and varna dharma
** The purest expression of these four dharmas, is called Sanatana Dharma. **
hence the notion that it will evolve endlessly is but a silly notion.
[quote]
Originally posted by kumarakn:
**Changez_like:
I assume you are serious with your question, unlike other bandwidth wasters! Hence, I am responding to your question.
......
Similarly, Islam after 2000 more years, would have accepted gays and lesbiaans as first rate muslims. Islam will accept that the earth is more than 4000 years old. The so called word of god would definitely have been modified - and just because it has been modified doesn't mean that is will cease to be the word of god. and just because it has to be modified wouldn't mean that it would have ceased to have become the word of god. the muslims of 4000AD would still be as religious to their Quran as you are today!
.....
[This message has been edited by kumarakn (edited August 10, 2001).]**
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Does that mean that society drives the Hinduism religion? or is there some group of Hindu priests who decides what to 'let in' the religion or what to 'keep away' from religion? I mean is there any governing body?or is it left to the individual to 'evolve' the religion?
NOTE: I do have curiosity about other religions, thats why I ask question serioulsy, if you answer them seriously I shall appreciate that.
It seems strange to me why I have to repeat again and again, may be you didn't read my earlier posts or may be you are not fully aware of Islam, if people in society change their living style or drop some RULES of Islam, it ** DOES NOT *mean that ISLAM HAS CHANGED. For the fundamental beleifs, ISLAM HAS NO PLACE FOR CHANGE. **Whatever has been FORBIDDEN in QURAN shall remain FORBIDDEN. * If someone opts to ignore Quran, he is liable for his acts... does not change ISLAM.
If some so-called 'Muslim' opts to be 'gay/lesbian', he/she is out the door. Islam does not allow such act. It shall remain forbidden whether or not a society accepts it. The SIN shall remain SIN.
I hope I was able to clear mis-understanding about evolution in Islam. If not, ask on a serious note.
We oughta be Changez like, don't we?
[This message has been edited by Changez_like (edited August 11, 2001).]
Nope..no priests, no books drive the practices of present day Indian Hindu religion. Or infact all the religions.
For example, orthodox Christians opposed stem cell research. Could they stop it? Bush, who originally opposed it, is funding it.
The society, as it changes, changes all the religions.
Ibrahim says; LOL! just pathetic isn’t it! **A hindu will have to do and say anything in order to hide their shame ** and I guess that’s why these two hindu couples, called it quits.
** Why Indrani and Chandara embraced Islam **
Sister Nishani (previously known as Indrani) and her husband, Brother Rafiq (previously
known as Chandara) shared with Sister Muneerah Al-Idros, their path toward embracing Islam.
Indrani was 6 years old when her father died. Her mother stopped praying as she felt that God had been unfair to make her a widow with 5 little children. Indrani and here brothers and sisters were brought up as nominal Hindus. They had neither an altar nor pictures of gods in their house as many Hindus do.
When Indrani was 10 yrs old she began to love God. She collected pictures of Hindu gods and godesses and worshipped them at home. She felt the need to pray and thought it was odd that, unlike other Hindu families, her family performed few Hindu rites.
During her teenage years, Indrani started going to temple thrice weekly. She encouraged some of her friends to go to the temple with her as she quickly became more interested in Hinduism.
** She participated in bhajanai (devotional singing) activities and became a committee member in Ayyapan Group in Perumal Temple for several years. **
One day, Indrani became very ill. She consulted several doctors but was informed that there was nothing wrong with her. However, her illness persisted. **She later consulted a Swami (a Hindu priest) so that he would clear the sevanai (evil spirits) that she suspected were dwelling inside her. The Swami and his assistant came to visit her. The assistant was Chandara, ** who was involved in her temple’s religious rites and who has also organized religious trips to Malaysia for Indrani and her friends.
Indrani was very impressed with the knowledge the young man demonstrated while assisting the swami.
After that visit, ** Chandara dreamt of his favorite goddess, Kaliamma, telling him to take Indrani as his bride. ** After much persuasion, his family asked for Indrani’s hand in marriage. Indrani and her family were pleasantly surprised by the marriage proposal. Indrani could not believe that her dreams of marrying a pious Hindu had come true.
** Unlike Indrani, Chandara was brought up in a religious Hindu family. On top of that, Chandara was the most religious in his family. He would often slip into a trance, reciting the holy mantras, in praise of the gods and goddesses who would possess him and speak through him. In Hinduism, it is considered an honor to be possessed by the gods or godesses.**
Chandara and other members of the group often got together to listen to the teachings of the swami. They would also make house visits to chase evil spirits out of other people’s houses and bodies. This is how Chandara was appointed to be the swami’s assistant.
** Indrani had never entered into a trance but had seen Chandara being possessed by the elephant god, Vinayagar. Chandara would behave exactly like an elephant, eating the fruits that the elephant ate.**
When in a trance, Chandara would be approached to solve problems. Those who approached him would prostrate before him, for they regarded him as “God”. The vibuthi (white ashes) used to anoint the forehead would be brought to Chandara to be blessed.
** Despite all this, Chandara did not feel complete. Dissatisfied, he knew there was something not right in his life. He failed to see the light and always felt that his path was blocked by some kind of darkness which he wanted to clear so he could reach the light. He knew that were 3360 Hindu gods and he prayed to several of them.**
Whenever he felt confused, he would go to the library to find out more about Hinduism. He learned from the elders but knew there was still a lot more to learn. Many of the ** Hindu priests did not want to share everything that they knew; knowledge was their rice bowl and they did not want their source to be taken away. **
It was difficult to learn on your own about Hinduism, as most of the writings were in Sanskrit. ** Chandara could not find any holy books that satisfied his quest. All the books were written by different authors and each of them had different ideas about how and when Hinduism started. Even the Bhagavat Geeta , Ramayana and Mahabrahta were very limited. These holy scriptures were more literature books, teaching that we should do good and pray to the gods. Above all these gods is the female god who is the Aadhi Parasakhti. She controls the whole universe. ** The essence of Hinduism is to strive at getting a good reincarnation and to worship God and to pray to God through demigods. **
During this search for enlightenment, Chandara was approached by a Christian missionary worker in Toa Payoh. ** He got involved in Christianity in the hope of enlightenment. However, he did not like Christianity, mainly due to the behavior of the people in the church; he noticed that young men and women were behaving indecently. Christianity was not what he was looking for and he withdrew. **
Still, Chandara could no longer bring himself to pray to so many gods. He could worship only one God spiritually and worship the other idols physically, ** but he did not know who the One God was. Chandara occasionally still got into a trance.**
Chandara had curious Malay friends asking him about Hindu worship. They did not tell him about Islam but they told him that unlike him they pray to one God: Allah.
Chandara, who was the leader among his working mates, would go along with Malays when they performed their Zohor prayer, waiting while they prayed. At the same time, he would pray to God in his hear, and ask for the right path.
Chandara was very impressed with the adhan, which had a soothing effect on this. The adhan touched his heart so deeply, especially when it was followed by the prayer that his friends and other Muslims never failed to fulfill. ** He felt like it was so simple to recognize the true God. “Just worship him. Why does one need all these idols and mediators?” It did not take long before he felt it was Islam and Allah that he had been searching for.**
After their marriage, his wife Indrani was still quite active in her temple activities. She became puzzled when her husband, a more pious Hindu than herself, used to hint repeatedly at the existence of one Almighty God, about praying to one God and that a true religion should not have many gods. Her mother-in-law felt that her previously pious son might have offended the gods.
Even after marriage, Chandara continued his search for enlightenment. He was trying to search for his One God in Hinduism, trying to know the One God he was praying to spiritually. He was no longer interested in any of the temple activities, no longer got into a trance. His mother, while in a trance, pointed out that her son’s change in behavior was due to his being under a charm.
Chandara did not know anything about Islam except that in Islam, God is One. He would meditate daily and Uthrachamale (zikr or rosary) Usually he would be chanting the various god’s names. However, this time when he called out their names he felt something was wrong so he just said in English, “Almighty God, Almighty God…” In his meditation, he knew Muslims are praying to the true God.
Chandara’s biggest problem in practicing Islam was Indrani. She didn’t like Muslims and was active with her temple activities. He tried to influence his wife on the teachings of Islam by turning on to the Malaysian Islamic programmed on televisions, like “Pedoman.” Indrani would complain that it was not necessary for her husband to take so much interest in Islam. ** He took this opportunity to express to her that he no longer believed in Hinduism, reasoning that it does not have a holy book and a basis of
belief. Failing to find out how Hinduism started it merely seemed a culture full of complexity brought down by their ancestors.**
He bought a translation of the Quran by Yusuf Ali and was deeply impressed when he read about the Prophets, of the beginning of mankind and of heaven and hell. He found many things that are necessary for every human bring to know and he encouraged Indrani to read it. ** When he read that idol-worshippers will be thrown to hell, he had all the idols and pictures removed from their home.**
Chandara now concentrated on learning more about Islam from various sources. He tried to learn more about Islam from his Malay friends. However, they usually could not give him answers to his questions. They suggested that he should seek help from an Ustadz (a religious teacher). None of them took the initiative to take him to see any Ustadz until he met a member of the Al-Arqam group. This person shared what he knew about Islam with Chandara. But Chandara found some of his teachings misleading; contrary to the teachings of Islam was the display of pictures of their leaders.
Chandara started bringing home books on Islam, as well as on Christianity, Sikhism and Hinduism, telling his wife to read and make a comparison of these religions. ** Indrani was not interested. he was very satisfied with her belief and with Hinduism. She told herself that there no way he could influence her with his idea of One Almighty God and swore in her heart that she would bring him back to her way.**
Indrani had no intention of reading the books her husband brought home. Yet when she had trouble sleeping at night, ** something made her pick up the Quran and read it. Again and again, when she could not sleep, it was the Quran that she picked up and read. She felt so lost because since her husband removed the Hindu deities from their home, she could no longer pray to them. **
Indrani began to have dreams. During her first pregnancy, she dreamt of the Kaaba. She related her dream to one of her Muslim colleagues, who the related Indrani’s dream to her father. He told her that she was fortunate to have dreamt of the Kaaba.
She also dreamt of Hindu Gods giving her warnings and threats but she had more dreams about Islam and pious Muslims. ** She continued to pray to Hindu idols, but wondered about her dreams. ** When she was expecting her third daughter, she had another strange dream. She heard a voice coming from the open window of the bedroom window. The voice said, “I am Muhammad, the Messenger of God. Follow my way and all evil will go away. If you want to know more, ask your husband.”
She awoke after this dream but fell asleep again. She had a second dream. In this dream, she saw herself telling her husband about her first dream. She asked him what the “way” was and he told her to look out the window. When she did, she saw Yusuf Islam dressed like an Arab giving a talk on Islam, surrounded by other people dressed like him. [Yusuf Islam is the former rock star, Cat Stevens. To read how he embraced Islam, please click http://www.catstevens.com Indrani had never seen Yusuf Islam before but she had heard of him. Somehow, in her dream, she knew it was him.
These dreams had a very strong impact on Indrani’s belief. She became increasingly drawn toward Islam and wanted to follow the way of Muhammad, the Messenger of God. She recalls that she wanted to accept Islam but was afraid as she was expecting her third child. She feared something would befall her baby as she thought of the threats the Hindu deities had made in her dream. After her delivery, Indrani told her husband that she was ready.
They were told about Darul Arqam - The Muslim Converts’ Association of Singapore, where they could register their reversion to Islam. Chandara initially refused as he thought Darul Arqam was affiliated to Al Arqam. They went to Jamiyah (Islamic Theological Society of Singapore) instead, and registered their names as Mohamed Rafiq and Nishani.
When they announced their reversion, they encountered many problems. This was especially so when Indrani started wearing the hijab. Their parents, siblings, relatives and friends who used to hold them dear, now chided them. All the friends Indrani has guided to Hinduism now refused to have anything to do with her, for fear that she may succeed in bringing them to Islam. They were especially surprised because Indrani used to dislike Muslims more than they did. Indrani’s parents warned her that her husband must have a hidden interest in having more than one wife.
Indrani and her husband, ostracized by their parents, missed the affection they previously received from them. Indrani repeatedly told herself that since Allah loves her so much, the sacrifice she was making in losing her family was nothing. She knows that no one loves her more than God Himself.
Learned Hindus and gurus tried to bring Chandara back to Hinduism but he turned them down politely. They then severed their relationship with him. Indrani’s family swore to see that he children Nisha, Nafeesa and Natasha be brought back to Hinduism when they grow up, refusing to acknowledge their grandchildren’s Muslim names. The children, now studying at the Madrasah (Islamic school), are very pleased with their religion. Chandara encourages them to wear the hijab even though they are still young, with the intention of getting them used to veiling. The parents observed that the children like
the hijab so much that they themselves refuse to remove it.
** Despite being rejected by their families, Indrani and Chadara never gave up trying to improve their relationship with them. Today, both Indrani’s and Chandara’s mothers have expressed that they have a filial son and a filial daughter. **
Alhamdulillah.
[Indrani and Chandara’s story was published in the “Muslim Reader”, Aug-Nov 1995 Vol. 13 No. 3. This is a publication of the Muslim Converts’ Association of Singapore which is located at 21 Onan Road, The Galaxy, Singapore 424484. For enquiries please Tel: 65-3488344 or visit their website at http://www.darul-arqam.org.sg
[quote]
Originally posted by kumarakn:
**Nope..no priests, no books drive the practices of present day Indian Hindu religion. Or infact all the religions.
For example, orthodox Christians opposed stem cell research. Could they stop it? Bush, who originally opposed it, is funding it.
The society, as it changes, changes all the religions.**
[/quote]
For God's sake, please, don't apply theories of Hinduism (evolution) to all other religions. This is my humble request.
If Bush allowed 'stem cell research' does not mean that actual Christianity took a turn. If you so start stereotyping, then other members in this forum would be right in saying that Hinduism preaches marriages with animal...
We oughta be Changez like, don't we?
Ibrahim,
thanks for the story. It's beautiful.
[quote]
Originally posted by Changez_like:
**
For God's sake, please, don't apply theories of Hinduism (evolution) to all other religions. This is my humble request.
If Bush allowed 'stem cell research' does not mean that actual Christianity took a turn. If you so start stereotyping, then other members in this forum would be right in saying that Hinduism preaches marriages with animal...
**
[/quote]
did you ever heard of 'Tahrirolvasyleh