not my job to convince u.ur an adult.and a free individual.
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Treating well is different than asking/forcing them to wear hijab, no?
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this was in preparation for the next verse abt admonishment.we shud be kind n compassionate with our responsibility.
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what is "ill-conduct"? is it towards husband or towards Allah, towards family of man (MIL etc)?
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ill conduct=islamic and individualistic interpretation .selfm explanatory.
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again, difference between "protectors and maintainers" versus "checking their obedience to Allah swt/observing hijab".
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agreed to some extent.
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My understanding is that its about how well you kept them, for example your provide them for clothing, good food, shelter, justice, equality etc.
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and thats all? lets say u do all that and she drinks infront of u,wud u be a dear n tell her not to just 3 or 4 times n then let her be bcoz its between her n Allah?
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May be we should've discussed it in religion forum then doing it here.
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i suppose so.
cap'n we all have our own indivdualistic interpretations and approaches.plz dont b offended by my example.
:(it’s so sad…no matter what i’ll raise them (my future kids inshallah) to be good pakistani muslims ( and proud pashtoons:blush:)
I think it’s not the culture that is changing…it’s the PEOPLE! american is still the same…i have some friends here in france who follow american church (evangelist church) with the help of american people, and they are VERY moral: no divorces, no sex before marriage, no drugs, no abortion, no porn, no petty crimes…and almost no cigarettes…but lots of charity:D…
this kind of “moral” america still exist…but lots of people chose to stray from that and adopt a new way of life…away from religion…
consumerism and capitalism has turned them away from God and moral:bummer:…
It is $$$$$$$$$$ the biggest enemy of religion:D…cause with dollars come the like to buy fancy clothes, go to sunbathes in bikini under palmtrees…nightclubbing and alcohol…all stuff that you buy with money:D
yep.....i agree with you unreal and karakush.....you have good understanding about this issue mashaAllah.......
to parisenoor.........there are good and bad people everywhere.....
Its not about necessarily your "job" but atleast respond to question about comments you post, why did you feel that men will be questioned about their women not being hijab'ed?
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and thats all? lets say u do all that and she drinks infront of u,wud u be a dear n tell her not to just 3 or 4 times n then let her be bcoz its between her n Allah?
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There are actions which impact people around it, society and there are questions which impact mainly the person who is doing it. Drinking falls under the action which impact people around the person doing it, I'll stop anyone under my influence, but then again will be QUESTIONED if we don't stop? Thats what I'm asking. There is a verse regarding "amr bil maroof wa nahi anil munkar" but then that does applies to population overall not specifically to your family / spouse etc.
yeah parissenoor is rite its the $$$ which changes the society (no i am not talking about as an individual) i am talking about society overall
i left pakistan (migrated to US) when i was 10, and after 9 years pakistani culture has been changed big time. i didnt notice it until i converted to islam 2 years ago. i mean before that i use to think pakistani culture was soo perfect, but now i see corruption everywhere in it (not making fun of pakistani culture, and i am not compareing this culture to any other country either)
the root cause of it is that muslims have stopped reading quran, so basically whats happening is that when you live in a muslim society with only few people actually reading quran, the culture slowly starts to change. just because we live in a muslim society we see other muslims people doing bad things (not a big one), but its small enough, enough that we dont notice it, that its bad. so we think probably its allowed in islam too. so overtime, thats how culture changes.
... and that is exactly whats happening to pakistani culture.
take muslim societies in america. Mediam size of community is ok, but if you go to a big muslim community (eg: New York, Chicago, Atlanta, Michigan, California) you see big problems.
i believe that greater burden of responsibility lies on men,refrences given before.the right to admonish also explicitly is mentioned in quran and given to men but alongwith the fact that they both have rights over eachother.
it leads me to conclude,purely from an islamic point of view that with greater responsibility comes greater accountability.
one shud start from home with ones family,if one does start sometime.
society and the economic structure has changed in a way that women have become integral part of the economic machinery that runs the country,and although,me including, have our spouses or spouses to be running things equally one does become responsible wen he doesnt tell the woman that her adornment shud be for him only.
as men we endorse all that goes on in society,we r all together responsible r we not.if morality dictates that one is responsible wen one sees ill-conduct but doesnt make any effort to stop it then how will we not b questioned by Allah for the things we ,if not endorsing but make no effort to rectify.let us not forget that we represent our family and so does the wife but we live in a tolerant society with regards to women who do not cover themselves up,wear skin fit see thru etc etc apparel.
wen we men do as we please in terms of ill conduct we also lose the right to admonish and this is wat we have isnt it?
qasam hay keh insaan khasaray main hay sawaye unkay jo iman laye.
Surah at-Taghabun ayah 14
O you, those who have faith! Truly, among your spouses and your children are (some that are) enemies to yourselves: so beware of them! But if you forgive and overlook, and cover up (their faults), verily Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful
The following is an excerpt of commentary on this ayah, from Tafsir Ibn Kathir:
Allah states that some wives [husbands too?] and children are enemies to their husbands and fathers [and wives and mothers?], in that they might be busied with them rather than with performing the good deeds
Now let me paraphrase :
There are actions which impact people around it, society and there are questions which impact mainly the person who is doing it. Drinking falls under the action which impact people around the person doing it, I'll stop anyone under my influence, but then again will be QUESTIONED if we don't stop? Thats what I'm asking. There is a verse regarding "amr bil maroof wa nahi anil munkar" but then that does applies to population overall not specifically to your family / spouse etc.
spouses are part of population.if we r not held responsible for those who r the most nearest n dearest who will be.certainly not the maulvi across the road.
conclusion
wether right or wrong i believe that both men and women do have the responsibility of keeping their partners in line.furthermore i believe men ,as more responsibility is given to them will be held accountable to a greater degree as compared to women.
we have progressed to the present condition due to the tolerance in tiny steps but is our society a muslim society.are we responsible for only ourselves?u know my views on this.wat i meant earlier was that i am here to discuss but not convince.i was terse so plz excuse me.
i left pakistan (migrated to US) when i was 10, and after 9 years pakistani culture has been changed big time. i didnt notice it until i converted to islam 2 years ago. i mean before that i use to think pakistani culture was soo perfect, but now i see corruption everywhere in it (not making fun of pakistani culture, and i am not compareing this culture to any other country either)
the root cause of it is that muslims have stopped reading quran, so basically whats happening is that when you live in a muslim society with only few people actually reading quran, the culture slowly starts to change. just because we live in a muslim society we see other muslims people doing bad things (not a big one), but its small enough, enough that we dont notice it, that its bad. so we think probably its allowed in islam too. so overtime, thats how culture changes.
... and that is exactly whats happening to pakistani culture.
MASHALLAH!:)
i would like to add one thing, that is dear to my thoughts:
to be part of the work force a woman has to expose herself, and it usually lead us to give hijaab away....one of my friend let hijaab after migrating outside pakistan and joining workforce in the west.
so now ask ourselves why do women have to go outside to work and expose themselves??
1- because of greed, some women are greedy, some men are...though their family have enough money to live decent life...the lust of luxury ties them or their husband, paarents...to try harder to buy more thing to show off...and it's a vicious circle cause one you stzrt working new expenditures arise: day care, a cook, a cleaning lady, ready to take away meal, a car, business clothes, haidresser, etc...
2- because of "bad" husbands or families...they are too many families forcing their daughters into marriages they don't want....too many husband being violent or adopting not proper behavior with their wife: this pushes the wife away from home....and without family protection she has to endure hard life. Usually not compatible with hijaab
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In islam ,no one is answerable for the acts of others but here following is explaination that he gave
Women is not accountable by ALLAH for this if she doent wear hijab.
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I disagree, a man "might be" co-responsible for his women's action, but not solely responsible unless he forced his women to not wear hijab, didn't provide those hijab directly or indirectly.
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there mahrams are held responsilbe bez there are three resposibilities of Mahrams
1)have they taught there ladies about this requirment by ALLAH.like
a women is not required to wear hijab infront of there mahrams,in her home etc etc
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Again, why is just mehram's responsibility to teach those ladies about hijab? Everyone is responsible for his/her own education and actions.
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2) Has he bought her the appropriate hijab( he said in joke no women in whole world will say no to new clothes)
3)has he created an enviroment in which she wears hijab and feel comfortable like have you appreciated your wife or sis for wearing hijab,like encourgement.etc etc
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That will be achieved when the men provide protection, providing (necessities of life) to their women, which is already pointed out in separate verses in Quran.
Jesus Christ, women do not all work because of greed or because of bad husbands and families.
I really do not understand that. I mean, to me, my career is simply a continuation of my education. I did not get educated because I was greedy or because I had a bad family. So if education trains people to have careers, then how can a career in itself be a bad thing?
There is nothing wrong with earning money. Otherwise, then men must be greedier than women, if men are the ones that should work.
A career is not just about the money. It is individualistic. For me, its like when you work on a project in school, and the satisfaction you get afterwards when you see that your work was done well and creatively, and that it was appreciated by people.
Muslim women need to get involved in professions like medicine, law, research, education, law enforcement, government, etc etc. There is a need for them to be present and visible.
After all, would you rather get whisked by a male at the airport at the security gates? Would you rather be waited upon a male at a lingerae shop? Would you prefer to have a male doctor deliver your baby or give you a pap smear? Would you prefer to confide in personal details to a male lawyer who is defending you in court? Would you prefer a male nurse to shave you for a surgery? Would you prefer male teachers for your daughters in school? Would you prefer males to scan your pads at the local grocery counter?
I mean, really, women are necessary in the workforce, and to insult the women who make your life comfortable is REALLY ungrateful and highly unfair to these ladies.
I hate threads like this because everybody gets all preachy on everybody else. To warp a quote from New Jack City "I am not my brothers keeper". Simply put religion, faith are between the man and woman and Allah. Don't preach, don't judge and certainly don't condescend to someone else because you have no right to do so.
If a woman wants to wear a hijab let her. If she doesn't let her do what she wants. That is their choice and you have no right to force your opinion on to others.
welllet us all live in small rooms and forget others…no matter what they do, think, and live…we care only about our little selves…god bless us all:hoonh:
[quote=PyariCgudia]
Jesus Christ, women do not all work because of greed or because of bad husbands and families…
I agree with what you said to a great extent. But why did you start your response like this? Jesus Christ… What is it? As Muslim, we respect all prophets and should not be using any prophet’s name like this. Among all other of your arguements, this is the least convincing part. We all live in this society and hear this and other words several times during the day. Does that mean we shud start cursing like they do? As another thread here was posted, should we be the carrot, an egg or the coffeee beans?
A career is not just about the money. It is individualistic. For me, its like when you work on a project in school, and the satisfaction you get afterwards when you see that your work was done well and creatively, and that it was appreciated by people.
This is called Self Actualization, a human need/drive when the basic needs are met. Praisenoor took it to a totally different extreme when she talked about women’s working and exposing. Many sahabia worked in the wars too, wud u call that exposing too?
Hareem: To answer ur question: A change is a must in any society, that’s the only permanent thing that happens! Why Media? What are we doing? Sending our children to private schools, where hardly any religious teaching is offered? We happily give our children the story books of Snowwhite and the like (meaning teaching them romance, marriage etc. at that age). How many of us buy religious story books to educate our children of religion? Media picks up from people to a large extent. Reject the wrongs Media is preeching and yes, we will prevail true Islamic values :insha: . It’s too hard to stand tall and different, esp. when it is against the prevalent fashion of the society.
Personally, I know it’s important to wear Hijjab as per Islamic principles. I detested it when I was forced to do so, but at least I know the importance. I want to do it but it’s way too hard. It takes real strength of charachter to do it. Personally I wud say inform and don’t force. Let Allah guide us all, ameen!
she said some didnt she.wats the use of an education if one even cant read properly.
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I really do not understand that. I mean, to me, my career is simply a continuation of my education. I did not get educated because I was greedy or because I had a bad family. So if education trains people to have careers, then how can a career in itself be a bad thing?
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its not bad.no one here in his/her right mind wud say this.all based on incorrect assumptions.blah blah blah
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1. There is nothing wrong with earning money. Otherwise, then men must be greedier than women, if men are the ones that should work.
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gawd this is so funny.
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A career is not just about the money. It is individualistic. For me, its like when you work on a project in school, and the satisfaction you get afterwards when you see that your work was done well and creatively, and that it was appreciated by people.
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this was never an issue,seems to me u just want to be heard.we hear u.we have no choice.
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Muslim women need to get involved in professions like medicine, law, research, education, law enforcement, government, etc etc. There is a need for them to be present and visible.
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they are involved in each and every field u mentioned.they r present and they r visible for those who know where to look.not everything is on fox news or cnn.
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After all, would you rather get whisked by a male at the airport at the security gates?
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oh women have being doing that in pak since i was 5 yr old that was 24 yrs back.
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Would you rather be waited upon a male at a lingerae shop?
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logically speaking they wud give a better view.but ill assume n dare to respond from women's side n say NO.
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Would you prefer to have a male doctor deliver your baby or give you a pap smear?
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women do that in pak.
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Would you prefer to confide in personal details to a male lawyer who is defending you in court?
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all that matters is the person be good but its individualistic.
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Would you prefer a male nurse to shave you for a surgery?
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wow.this reminds me of the way usa says the only way to live as a muslim woman is the way they live in afghanistan.
btw,i wud love to know of a hospital where all staff is female.in my 6 months ,working ammong guys i hated,those semi -civilised people from the interior ,not one ever made any lewd remark abt the unconscious female body in the OT.looking at a womans genitalia with indifference becomes second nature.
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Would you prefer male teachers for your daughters in school?
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i assume u work in an all woman complex and travel in an all woman bus .why not.my dad is a decent guy n has been a professor for 35 years now.so r a few of my uncles.my taya is a bit perverse so i wont trust him but u think every man out there is a rapist just waiting to drop his pants?i was offered a job at a university to teach mba students.not evryone is sick in this world.
if all sickos surrounded me n my life i wud move waisay.
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Would you prefer males to scan your pads at the local grocery counter?
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natural phenomenon.uski ma bahan ko bhi hotay hain periods.nothing delightful abt it.he prolly wants to get it over with quickly too .
women go around in tight t shirts n see thru dresses with dupattas on the side or totally absent.evryone sees the elevations within the fabric even in those who r fully covered.evry female has them[almost all n some men too].its due to estrogen.so having periods is normal too.
many guys can even tell just by looking at a womans face n observing her behaviour if shes having periods.u wud throw them in a cell n lock em up next?
at bahadurabad khi,there is a female undies shop that says "woman hi dokaandar,woman hi khareedar".i wudnt add anything more because ur mod friends delete my posts as soon as u complain abt them.
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I mean, really, women are necessary in the workforce, and to insult the women who make your life comfortable is REALLY ungrateful and highly unfair to these ladies.
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and they r there n more comming day by day with full support of the men in their houses.unbelieveable for u i suppose but yes most of the women have men in their homes.nobody said anything like this to which ur referring.
somebody wise onece told me that experience speaks.
Thanks to everyone for posting thier mails..........
To my muslim Brothers.......
Don't force your women to wear hijaab without:
(a)giving them(women) the understanding of and importance of hijjab(includes the way they dress and the way they act in front of other na mehram).
(b)and without creating the atmosphere in which they feel comfortable.
I'm amazed that most of the brothers on this thread are aware of thier responsibilities.
To muslimah sisters(who wear hijjab)
If you wear hijjab then LOVE IT........
Its an order from Allah not from your men....
(when i say hijjab i mean the apperance of your body and also behaviour in front of other men)
There are very nice scarf,jilbaahs and accessories are available in market.......
May Allah guide us all to the straight path.
Wasalaam
Likewise for the woman who observes hijab she does so to protect herself from luring perverted men and protects herself from envious and jealous women. She does so by covering her body and keeping her mannerisms minimal and bland.
If for example a woman is completely covered from head to toe, but she wears very strong scent, loud noisy shoes and jewelry and walks with her hips from side to side and talks out loud so people can hear her ... this is not hijab ... this is a very immodest woman who is merely covered.
.
If thas real hijab, then i havent met a single woman in pakistan who wears proper hijab, since every woman (including hijabis/niqabis) Ive seenhere is rude and pushy and arrogant and has the "go to hell b!tch" look on her face, sometimes with attitude to match :)
girl in half sleeves,with her smooth arms shining,wearing a scarf,meeting some other guppies, n her face is distorted so she isnt recognizable[from whom?].
