===Wombs For RENT...Your Views??

[Ask99]

@Mamaof3

If you havent faced this situation in your own personal life, then you really dont have any idea of how you'd react and which option you would choose if you wanted a child. Its a very honorable thing to adopt. But dont "diss" those who opt for surrogacy until you've been there yourself. It works - on both sides - in the vast majority of cases. And yes, there are sad stories and horror stories due to surrogacy but dont forget there are more sad and horrific stories with regular birth parents.

Something I've always thought was a wonderful thing is egg donation. Women can donate their eggs and make like 5 to 10 thousand US. And a couple who would otherwise be childless can have their own child.

But anyway, like I said, no one knows for sure what they'd do till they've walked a mile in those particular shoes.

We are not discussing surrogacy in "general" but if you read the other posts you can see that paying a poor woman for bearing your child , basically luring a family by giving them money,it is exploitation in my view.Do you think its fair? Its a different story when some woman, a relative etc may offer to be a surrogate without trying to profit from it..that is altruistic. Most of the countries have disallowed the commercialized surrogacy, and I think thats how it should be in third world countries too... Altruistic surrogacy is simply different isnt it?It simply shouldn't be a business transaction.Why is the sale of human body parts s frowned upon and illegal?
How far s going too far..thats the reason there are laws...a human can justify almost anything if it were upto him in his mind.

[X2]

Re: ===Wombs For RENT...Your Views??

^ surrogacy is alive and doing well in USA. so before we worry about exploitation in India, lets look in our own back yard.

and there are two ways of looking at this, one can also say that the exorbitant rates of surrogacy in US are exploitation of people who want to have kids.

come to think of it, the high costs of adoption should also be considered exploitation. but agencies are in business, all these social service type ppl charging high fees for home studies are in business.

so lets look at it this way there is nothing altruistic out there when it comes to this topic.

I suppose we seem to have more empathy for a woman in India who is making money of her free will as a gestational surrogate, versus the empathy for ppl who want to have kids who end up paying $30K easily to adopt a child.

it woulds be rather simplistic to pop up another thread titled "babies for sale..your views" and look at the financials of adoption

[Ask99]

@X2

^ surrogacy is alive and doing well in USA. so before we worry about exploitation in India, lets look in our own back yard.

and there are two ways of looking at this, one can also say that the exorbitant rates of surrogacy in US are exploitation of people who want to have kids.

come to think of it, the high costs of adoption should also be considered exploitation. but agencies are in business, all these social service type ppl charging high fees for home studies are in business.

so lets look at it this way there is nothing altruistic out there when it comes to this topic.

I suppose we seem to have more empathy for a woman in India who is making money of her free will as a gestational surrogate, versus the empathy for ppl who want to have kids who end up paying $30K easily to adopt a child.

it woulds be rather simplistic to pop up another thread titled "babies for sale..your views" and look at the financials of adoption

Surrogacy is allowed in US, but a commercialized one isnt in all states. Women who carry the baby are most of the time considered the legal mother by law and thus are protected by the law if she has a change of heart( I am not saying if its right or wrong if she does, but the fact that the law protects her that is enough and she would know that!Now do you think the woman in a third world country has those rights.More or less it has become an outsourcing of the demand that is here in USA sans all the extra cost and legal rights.

You can say that most adoption agencies charge a lot for adopting, and ofcourse the high rates in USA are there as a form of exploitation.Arent all the medical procedures and medical advice highly priced too? Now that is not a new thing in USA.You want the latest and the greatest in medicine..there is a high price tag on all that...and ofcourse it can be said that its exploitation,but there is enough demand that keeps the supply going.
You cant be poor and sick in USA, nothing like free lunch here, or anywhere for that matter.
And for the adoption agency business..reason is that most of them are in it for the money. But would you say that a transaction is taking place when adopting kids?.
What I think that is it fair to take advantage of women who would not be willing to be surrogates if money wasnt involved. thats the difference.
Do the organizations like Edhi etc charge money for adopting kids that already in this world?

[X2]

Re: ===Wombs For RENT...Your Views??

actually surrogacy laws vary from state to state and some states are more favourable to the intended parents. the balance between rights iof the surrogate and the intended parents has to be maintained no matter where it is. Just like I support the rights if surrogate mothers I support the rights of intended parents. in many states in USA the legal contracts are done in a way that such last minute change of mind does not alter things.

is it fair to have a woman serve as a surrogate if she is doing it for money? err is itr fair to have someone as a cook, or a maasi. what is the right 'compensation' here where it stops being exploitation of the surrogate, and at what rate does it start becomign exploitation of the intended parents.

as far as adopting kids, the case can easily be made that a transaction is taking place, you dont pay you dont get a child.

and lets not limit the adoption to edhi, we are speaking as americans and looking at surrogacy topic from an american perspective on rights and as such.

for your homework, you should call a handful of adoption agencies in your city and ask what the total cost is and whether you can still adopt if you dont pay their fees.

[Ask99]

Re: ===Wombs For RENT...Your Views??

Thats the reason that I didnot say that I agree or disagree on the fact that the women may have change of heart and decide to keep the baby. I said she has rights as a legal mother and most states and countries agree to that. Now if their is a contract between the the surrogate mother and the parents, that is upto the courts to decide if there is a conflict after that.Contracts can be broken too, dependent on the legal proceedings.

Now if you want to compare the services provided by surrogate to that of a massi or a cook, I beg to differ. Why arent human organs allowed to be bought and sold in most parts of the world including USA? There may a willing buyer and ofcourse a willing seller too..(onlyGod knows if they are willing to sell a part of there body for money...for all the money in the world I wouldnt want to have myself cut open and then a kidney sold by my own free will)

[Mamaof3]

Re: ===Wombs For RENT...Your Views??

On a related note, I just recently watched a movie on HBO called "China's Stolen Children". They have big problems over there due to their "one child" policy. People need to get "birth permits" before getting pregnant. If a couple has another child, hefty fines are imposed. Children are stolen and sold, especially boys. Girl children are aborted or sold into slavery after birth. Or sold to a family with a boy to raise her and then marry her to their son. Traffickers run a hugely profitable enterprise. It was revolting.

Anyway, while I agree there can be troubles with surrogacy here in the US, the very vast majority of cases work to the benefit of both the surrogate and the family that gets the child. And there ARE laws which at least attempt to protect both sides - whether its a local case or probably even more so - an international one. I think that western countries are far ahead of the game here.

[X2]

@Ask99

Thats the reason that I didnot say that I agree or disagree on the fact that the women may have change of heart and decide to keep the baby. I said she has rights as a legal mother and most states and countries agree to that. Now if their is a contract between the the surrogate mother and the parents, that is upto the courts to decide if there is a conflict after that.Contracts can be broken too, dependent on the legal proceedings.

do you think that the intended parents dont have anything vested in this whole situation? and as far as contracting goes these legal proceedings are governed by the applicable laws.

here is a summary of surrogacy laws in US, and if your basic issue is that the surrogate has a right to change mind, then looking at the list at the link, you may want to start campaignging against it in US first

Comprehensive Guide to State Surrogacy Laws

@Ask99

Now if you want to compare the services provided by surrogate to that of a massi or a cook, I beg to differ. Why arent human organs allowed to be bought and sold in most parts of the world including USA? There may a willing buyer and ofcourse a willing seller too..(onlyGod knows if they are willing to sell a part of there body for money…for all the money in the world I wouldnt want to have myself cut open and then a kidney sold by my own free will)

you are the one looking at it from a pay for service perspective and exploitation so I am comparing it to other . if the basis of the argument is that womena re doing it for money then unless it is illegal, which it is not, then the only issue one can have when it comes to exploitation is whether they are being compoensated fairly. what is fair is upto individual interpretation I suppose. IN my opinion your comparison to organ buying is somethign you should beg to differ more with.

oh and btw, they pay ppl for plasma and sperm in US and many other places around the world.

EXPLOITATION!!!

[lakkis25]

When you adopt a kid, you adopt with same ethnic background ?

[X2]

Re: ===Wombs For RENT...Your Views??

depends, some people do and some people dont.
my understanding is that a large chunk, if not majroity of adoptions in China are by caucasian americans/canadians/europeans

[AQ]

Re: ===Wombs For RENT...Your Views??

Ethically and Religiously, any such idea is not so good and in some cases there are pretty strict religious rulings as well..

Adoptation is a better and much more noble thing to do. Giving a shelter and parents to kids who have no home in this world is better than brining a child in this world with this procedure.

Islamically, one thing should be considered in adopting, though, is to make sure that after puberty, laws of mehram/naa-mehram apply between parents and adopting children of different gender.

[X2]

Re: ===Wombs For RENT...Your Views??

from a religious perspective currently, gestational surrogacy is not permitted. although it is to be noted that IVF was not permitted at one time as well. the advances in surrogacy may have us see a day when u dont even need a woman to carry teh child and that will have some interesting debates then.

as far as adoption goes, much is made about mehram/na-mehram, as I have noted before, nurse em and much of the mehram na mehram issue goes away.

secondly, its not that mehram na mehram is really applied in many families anyways, with cousins hanging out at each others places, or dealing with elders who are not really mehram.

the focus on this just when it comes to adoption becomes a little amusing.

[AQ]

Re: ===Wombs For RENT...Your Views??

True. Nursing a child by mother makes the issue of mehram/naa-mehram resolved... It was about when Zaid bin Harisa (RA) was exempted from many things even though he was adopted child of Prophet (SAW) [by the way, adopting a child is a sunnah and bear rewards] ... he was not nursed because he was not adopted in infancy.

As for the issue of cousins hanging out, that is an Issue for sure... may be a separate thread we can open for it...

[Ask99]

@X2

do you think that the intended parents dont have anything vested in this whole situation? and as far as contracting goes these legal proceedings are governed by the applicable laws.

here is a summary of surrogacy laws in US, and if your basic issue is that the surrogate has a right to change mind, then looking at the list at the link, you may want to start campaignging against it in US first

Comprehensive Guide to State Surrogacy Laws

you are the one looking at it from a pay for service perspective and exploitation so I am comparing it to other . if the basis of the argument is that womena re doing it for money then unless it is illegal, which it is not, then the only issue one can have when it comes to exploitation is whether they are being compoensated fairly. what is fair is upto individual interpretation I suppose. IN my opinion your comparison to organ buying is somethign you should beg to differ more with.

oh and btw, they pay ppl for plasma and sperm in US and many other places around the world.

EXPLOITATION!!!

I am looking at it as being an exploitation of the person’s economic condition. I think the commercial use of surrogacy should be illegal, not that how much they are or should be paid. I still think that adoption is a very good option rather then commercial surrogacy.

[humhaipakistani]

Surrogacy is old news. Wholesale buying of Indian Embryos is where its at these days.

Have a look at today’s news: Raekha Prasad on fertility tourists to India | Life and style | The Guardian

Oh what fun it must be when white people give birth to brown babies..

[Mamaof3]

I am looking at it as being an exploitation of the person's economic condition. I think the commercial use of surrogacy should be illegal, not that how much they are or should be paid. I still think that adoption is a very good option rather then commercial surrogacy.

Ask....lets think about this for a moment....

Think about a woman who is poor and barely getting by. Goes hungry alot perhaps....this is the type of person you are thinking of when you talk about exploitation I think. This woman can earn enough money to support her family for a number of years by donating an egg or even more money by bearing a child for a couple who would be forever grateful.

So when it really, actually comes down to dollars and donuts....what is the difference between THAT activity and - say - earning money as a professional? Professional (white collar) jobs are stressful as is bearing a child. They age you, as does bearing a child. BOTH earn very good money so why not do what you are capable of doing?

Perhaps I'm being cold here, or missing something. But what I see, personally, is that in the very vast majority of cases, these things work out to the benefit of both sides. I'm sure there are cases of expoitation but again, its obviously not the majority.

The thing about surrogacy, typically, is that there is a need for a birth mother because it is not possible for the couple wanting the child. Yet, they want to have a child that is biologically related. I can totally understand that. Dad's sperm goes to the surrogate - sometimes with his wife's egg, sometimes with a donor egg but either way, the child will biologically be his own.

Unless you have faced this situation, you really dont know what its like to make these decisions about how to enlarge your family or what you would do. Its always nice to have ideas and ideals but until you face it and live it, you really dont know WHAT you'd do.

When I was battling infertility, I actually started to shop around for a second wife for my hubby who would be able to bear his children. As a gori, born and raised, this is not something I'd ever thought I'd even consider. When you love someone and want to give them the gift of life and the miracle of children, you just cant imagine what lengths you'd go to to accomplish it.

[humhaipakistani]

Re: ===Wombs For RENT...Your Views??

This is a bit of an ethical / legal conundrum. If as in the article above, the lady gives birth to a child genetically unrelated to her and gives birth to a second child (with a different set of egg and sperm donors), would the kids she gave birth to be able to marry each other legally, given that both are unrelated?

[X2]

I am looking at it as being an exploitation of the person's economic condition. I think the commercial use of surrogacy should be illegal, not that how much they are or should be paid. I still think that adoption is a very good option rather then commercial surrogacy.

as we can see many states think differently and do not consider it illegal.
if you look at gestational surrogacy rates here, it is no exploitation of a person's economic condition but exploitation of the emotional condition of the intended parents.

and when we look at total rates of approx $50-$70K in US , and then look at $6K in India and look at the cost of living difference in both countries. It does not look bad.

$1 is equal to roughly 43 rupees i think.

plus the avg income in india is around $1K/year

in 2006 the median household income in US was around $50K.

so a surrogate in US gets the same as avg median household income, while the surrogate in India gets several times that.

does not look too bad to me from an exploitation angle.

and in the very first post a statement was made that in US the surrogate has teh right to change her mind while in India she does not. I have already shown that that statement in fact is not true.