Will we learn what we do not understand?

Society Religion & Philosophy
1

Not certain if this would be interesting to anyone, but very recently a community programme was initiated in Seattle by concerned individuals following a spate of harassment incidences against Muslims, Arabs, and even against some Sikhs and Hindus. Along with police officers, volunteers patrol local mosques in an effort to prevent further cases of hate crimes from occurring. Following is the experience of one volunteer who happens to be non Muslim.

Though the chances for finding survivors in lower Manhattan wanes, last night I found new hope for the possibilities that can arise from the ashes and the rubble.

I went to the Idriss Mosque in Seattle at 10:30 PM to stand a volunteer watch over this place of prayer. Last Wednesday night, a misguided “patriot” had poured gasoline over a car in the parking lot and, when confronted, pulled a gun and fired a shot into the ground. He was arrested and charged, and may face federal charges for perpetrating a hate crime.

The Greater Church Council of Seattle organized a voluntary vigil in response to these and other attacks and I was told that they were especially looking for people to commit to evening times when the bars closed.

When I arrived, I was not surprised to see a Seattle Police patrol car sitting in a driveway next to the mosque. But when I walked up the steps to the entrance I was amazed to see and smell dozens and dozens of bouquets of flowers placed along the walls next to the doorway and cascading down the sides of the steps. In front of these was an old card table set up with bottles of soda, a tureen of coffee and a box of jelly donuts encrusted with powdered sugar. All along the sidewalk candles left by well wishers lent a mournful air to what could otherwise have been mistaken for a celebration. Along the walls of the mosque, neighbors had posted handmade signs with slogans like “Muslims are Americans too!”

Inside, I could hear the imam giving a sermon, but outside there were about eight or nine of us who had dropped by to stand watch. I chose a seat in a row of rickety chairs that looked like garage sale rejects, away from the others, and tried to count the vases of flowers. I stopped when I got to fifty. Then I stared into the night sky and prayed for the victims in New York. But with my eyes closed, the pungent aroma of jasmine in a vase behind me distracted me with thoughts of a Mediterranean night.

After a half hour, an elderly man came to me and offered me a soda in that way that Middle Easterners have that makes it feel like a sin to refuse. Even after I held up my cup of water he kept insisting, so I drained drank the rest and refilled it. He invited me into the mosque and I removed my shoes and went inside.

It is a plain building, made primarily from beige cement brick. The floor is covered in a pale green carpet and there was only one prayer rug laid out. Compared to mosques I had seen in Turkey or Jerusalem, this one seemed so bare. And it was tiny. The sign above the door said, “Capacity 144.”

A man stood in the center of the room, a wall of Arabic books behind him, speaking to two American college boys. They were joined by two more young boys in t-shirts. They said, they just dropped by because they were curious and wanted to learn more about Islam. The mosque teacher invited them to join the other two and all five sat on the empty floor while he answered their questions. Perhaps they received more of an introduction to Islam than they expected, but their faces were filled with an open curiosity that I seldom saw in the classroom. I sat nearby for a few minutes and read a pamphlet about Islam and Science printed by a Saudi publisher and then went back outside to perform my watchful duty.

Since prayers had ended, a few worshippers were now sitting outside speaking Arabic and English. I listened to the music of their voices and if there had been no cool drizzle and I closed my eyes, I could have imagined that I was in the Middle East.

After a few moments, an Egyptian man about my age asked me if I had gone inside. I told him I had, but that I had not seen the place to make abdis (ablution). He explained that it was downstairs, off the bathroom and asked if I knew about the practice of ablution.

I told him I had participated with a Muslim group in West Seattle though I was Jewish. He smiled and said, “so you have studied Islam. I have read the Torah and know it very well.” And so we began an hour-long conversation about the similarities between Islam and Judaism. He quoted Koran in Arabic and then translated each passage, usually about Moses, and then we would discuss the same account in the Torah. We talked of Abraham and his travels from Iraq, and of Joseph in Egypt.

He told me that in the past two days he had seen two men who had come to the vigils convert to Islam. He had sat and spoken at length with a Jewish woman. And he told me of the two rabbis and two priests who had also come to stand watch over the mosque.

As the drizzle turned to a light rain, I thanked him for his hospitality and we shook hands. I said , “as salaamu alaykum” to the elderly man, and walked back to the parking lot. In the driveway a police officer stood standing with a dreadlocked youth discussing what America’s response to terrorism ought to be. This incongruous sight made me laugh out loud. As I drove home, I pondered the many ways that good can emerge from this act of violent hatred, if we are willing to keep listening to each other and learn what we do not understand.

2

A tearful visit from an elderly neighbour bringing a gift of fresh fruit.

A heartfelt hug from a woman, a stranger in a supermarket.

Numerous letters to local newspapers and radio stations from nonmuslims condemning the lack of understanding, the show of pathetic ignorance.

Smiles, and queries of 'how are you?' from strangers on the streets and in the halls of university.

You guys, there are all sorts of people in this world, good as well as bad. Therefore, be not hasty to condemn a nation on the basis of one, nor condemn one on the actions of one's nation.

I would not cry for the second child killed in a war, when the death of the first one was already an infinite tragedy.
--George Orwell

3

Dear Brethren

Whilst there may be some good in all people, including those that are pagans, atheists and even outright criminals (Allah (swt) knows best). There is indeed a purpose for Allah (swt) to have given them life in the first place and for those who have wisdom to comprehend and distinguish between short term benefits to long term oppression.

Just for the record about 542 case of harassment against Muslims and Islam have been reported to CAIR alone in the US in the past week.

The People who may realize the truth and show compassion towards the Muslims in this time frame are ** NOT the people who are conducting the crusade against Islam.** And what matters most is what the manipulators are trying to achieve not what some good people did or will do to please some.

Here find out what is taking place in the American senate at this very moment. Whilst all the eyes on other matters.

This bill just passed the senate " Bill No: HR 2500" with amendments including the following (which had been removed by the House in July) even though the below additions are not mentioned as separate amendments, they just are in the text of the bill again:
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/D?c107:5:./temp/~c107LLWUzI:e126325:

SEC. 403. None of the funds made available in this Act may be used by the Department of State or the Broadcasting Board of Governors to provide equipment, technical support, consulting services, ** or any other form of assistance to the Palestinian Broadcasting Corporation. **

SEC. 406. None of the funds appropriated or otherwise made available by this Act or any other Act for fiscal year 2002 or any fiscal year thereafter may be obligated or expended for the publication of any official Government document which lists countries and their capital cities ** unless the publication identifies Jerusalem as the capital of Israel. **

SEC. 407. For the purposes of registration of birth, certification of nationality, or ** issuance of a passport of a United States citizen born in the city of Jerusalem, the Secretary of State shall, upon request of the citizen, record the place of birth as Israel. **

Ibrahim says;

  1. This means the Americans want to promote and establish Jerusalem as the capital of Israel even though they are acting like a just mediator between the Palestinians and Israel.

  2. There have no desire to help the oppressed Palestinians in any form or shape and have been using their media to demonize the Palestinians meaning Islam and Muslims .

** This calls for immediate action before this passes the House with no discussion of it being in there. . If you are a US citizen contact your rep and find out where they stand in this matter. **

Hence, that is the ** truth behind the double talk, double think and double do nature of the current Judeo Christians ** who are in control and what some people who have gone out to help the Muslim will not be worth anything when you will end up being castigated like the Iraqis in the long run. Which is what the book of revelations ( bible) ask them to do.

4

This means the Americans want to promote and establish Jerusalem as the capital of Israel even though they are acting like a just mediator between the Palestinians and Israel.
Sorry, you mean the American government, not ordinary Americans right?

Hence, that is the truth behind the double talk, double think and double do nature of the current Judeo Christians who are in control and what some people who have gone out to help the Muslim will not be worth anything when you will end up being castigated like the Iraqis in the long run.
I am not too certain about "double talk" being something that is restricted to Jews and Christians alone and something that we Muslims are immune from. Muslim leaders, a few of whom occupy such privileged positions vis-a-vis the US, have been deafeningly silent regarding issues such as Palestine, Iraq, Afghanistan, Sudan, Chechnya, etc. Based upon my own (albeit limited) personal experiences, I know many more Christians who are involved in campaigning against the sanctions on Iraq than I know Muslims.

Which is what the book of revelations (bible) ask them to do.
Sorry, do you mind if I ask for a referenced quote from the Bible for this.

5

[quote]
Originally posted by Nadia_H:
Sorry, you mean the American government, not ordinary Americans right?

Even they. Public supports them, otherwise they would protest every day.

**
I am not too certain about "double talk" being something that is restricted to Jews and Christians alone and something that we Muslims are immune from. Muslim leaders, a few of whom occupy such privileged positions vis-a-vis the US, have been deafeningly silent regarding issues such as Palestine, Iraq, Afghanistan, Sudan, Chechnya, etc. Based upon my own (albeit limited) personal experiences, I know many more Christians who are involved in campaigning against the sanctions on Iraq than I know Muslims.
**

You are right, but if you see everything is in control by majority (jews and christian). Do you think its of any use?! Some Muslim country (accept Saudia Arabia and UAE) appeal for peace and equality in Israel, but who is going to listen to them?! AMERICA?! No way!
They are going to attack IRAQ as well (CNN reported today!). You think U.S cares about any of these Muslim Countries demonstrating against these strikes? In this case, they (the gov.) wouldn't even listen to their own beloved Americans (assuming some of them start a campaign).

[/quote]

*“na maiN momin vich masiitaaN, na maiN muusaa, na fir'aun!”
*

[This message has been edited by Ali_R (edited September 23, 2001).]

[This message has been edited by Ali_R (edited September 23, 2001).]

6

[quote]
Originally posted by Nadia_H:

Ibrahim earlier:
This means the Americans want to promote and establish Jerusalem as the capital of Israel even though they are acting like a just mediator between the Palestinians and Israel.

Sorry, you mean the American government, not ordinary Americans right? **

[/quote]

Ibrahim says; Hi Nadia, sorry about the length of this reply but I felt the facts are worth noting.

Hmm…. I wonder, when it comes to policy making , I suppose the American government makes the policy ( Zionist in nature) but can we say the rest of its citizenry did not support it , not accurate either on the other hand there MUST be those who oppose it , yet this country has been actively doing what it wishes .

Just so that we get a good perspective on this, lets look at what America had been involved in the past

  • Ever since the United States Army massacred 300 Lakotas in 1890, American forces have intervened elsewhere around the globe 100 times. Indeed the United States has sent troops abroad or militarily struck other countries' territory 216 times since independence from Britain. Since 1945 the United States has intervened in more than 20 countries throughout the world.

** Since World War II, the United States actually dropped bombs on 23 countries. **

These include: China 1945-46, Korea 1950-53, China 1950-53, Guatemala 1954,
Indonesia 1958, Cuba 1959-60, Guatemala 1960, Congo 1964, Peru 1965, Laos 1964-73, Vietnam 1961-73, Cambodia 1969-70, Guatemala 1967-69, Grenada 1983, Lebanon 1984, Libya 1986, El Salvador 1980s, Nicaragua 1980s, Panama 1989, Iraq 1991-1999, Sudan 1998,
Afghanistan 1998, and Yugoslavia 1999.

** Post World War II, the United States has also assisted in over 20 different coups throughout the world, and the CIA was responsible for half a dozen assassinations of political heads of state. **

The following is a comprehensive summary of the imperialist strategy of the United States over the span of the past century:

Argentina - 1890 - Troops sent to Buenos Aires to protect business interests.

Chile - 1891 - Marines sent to Chile and clashed with nationalist rebels.

Haiti - 1891 - American troops suppress a revolt by Black workers on United States-claimed Navassa Island.

Hawaii - 1893 - Navy sent to Hawaii to overthrow the independent kingdom - Hawaii annexed by the United States.

Nicaragua - 1894 - Troops occupied Bluefields, a city on the Caribbean Sea, for a month.

China - 1894-95 - Navy, Army, and Marines landed during the Sino-Japanese War.

Korea - 1894-96 - Troops kept in Seoul during the war.

Panama - 1895 - Army, Navy, and Marines landed in the port city of Corinto.

China - 1894-1900 - Troops occupied China during the Boxer Rebellion.

Philippines - 1898-1910 - Navy and Army troops landed after the Philippines fell during the Spanish-American War; 600,000 Filipinos were killed.

Cuba - 1898-1902 - Troops seized Cuba in the Spanish-American War; the United States still
maintains troops at Guantanamo Bay today.

Puerto Rico - 1898 - present - Troops seized Puerto Rico in the Spanish-American War and still occupy Puerto Rico today.

Nicaragua - 1898 - Marines landed at the port of San Juan del Sur.

Samoa - 1899 - Troops landed as a result over the battle for succession to the throne.

Panama - 1901-14 - Navy supported the revolution when Panama claimed independence from Colombia. American troops have occupied the Canal Zone since 1901 when construction for the canal began.

Honduras - 1903 - Marines landed to intervene during a revolution.

Dominican Rep 1903-04 - Troops landed to protect American interests during a revolution.

Korea - 1904-05 - Marines landed during the Russo-Japanese War.

Cuba - 1906-09 - Troops landed during an election.

Nicaragua - 1907 - Troops landed and a protectorate was set up.

Honduras - 1907 - Marines landed during Honduras' war with Nicaragua.

Panama - 1908 - Marines sent in during Panama's election.

Nicaragua - 1910 - Marines landed for a second time in Bluefields and Corinto.

Honduras - 1911 - Troops sent in to protect American interests during Honduras' civil war.

China - 1911-41 - Navy and troops sent to China during continuous flare-ups.

Cuba - 1912 - Troops sent in to protect American interests in Havana.

Panama - 1912 - Marines landed during Panama's election.

Honduras - 1912 - Troops sent in to protect American interests.

Nicaragua - 1912-33 - Troops occupied Nicaragua and fought guerrillas during its 20-year civil war.

Mexico - 1913 - Navy evacuated Americans during revolution.

Dominican Rep 1914 - Navy fought with rebels over Santo Domingo.

Mexico - 1914-18 - Navy and troops sent in to intervene against nationalists.

Haiti - 1914-34 - Troops occupied Haiti after a revolution and occupied Haiti for 19 years.

Dominican Rep 1916-24 - Marines occupied the Dominican Republic for eight years.

Cuba - 1917-33 - Troops landed and occupied Cuba for 16 years; Cuba became an economic protectorate.

World War I - 1917-18 - Navy and Army sent to Europe to fight the Axis powers.

Russia - 1918-22 - Navy and troops sent to eastern Russia after the Bolshevik Revolution; Army made five landings.

Honduras - 1919 - Marines sent during Honduras' national elections.

Guatemala - 1920 - Troops occupied Guatemala for two weeks during a union strike.

Turkey - 1922 - Troops fought nationalists in Smyrna.

China - 1922-27 - Navy and Army troops deployed during a nationalist revolt.

Honduras - 1924-25 - Troops landed twice during a national election.

Panama - 1925 - Troops sent in to put down a general strike.

China - 1927-34 - Marines sent in and stationed for seven years throughout China.

El Salvador - 1932 - Naval warships deployed during the FMLN revolt under Marti.

World War II - 1941-45 - Military fought the Axis powers: Japan, Germany, and Italy.

Yugoslavia - 1946 - Navy deployed off the coast of Yugoslavia in response to the downing of an American plane.

Uruguay - 1947 - Bombers deployed as a show of military force.

Greece - 1947-49 - United States operations insured a victory for the far right in national "elections."

Germany - 1948 - Military deployed in response to the Berlin blockade; the Berlin airlift lasts 444 days.

Philippines - 1948-54 - The CIA directed a civil war against the Filipino Huk revolt.

Puerto Rico - 1950 - Military helped crush an independence rebellion in Ponce.

Korean War - 1951-53 - Military sent in during the war.

Iran - 1953 - The CIA orchestrated the overthrow of democratically elected Mossadegh and restored the Shah to power.

Vietnam - 1954 - The United States offered weapons to the French in the battle against Ho Chi Minh and the Viet Minh.

Guatemala - 1954 - The CIA overthrew the democratically elected Arbenz and placed Colonel Armas in power.

Egypt - 1956 - Marines deployed to evacuate foreigners after Nasser nationalized the Suez Canal.

Lebanon - 1958 - Navy supported an Army occupation of Lebanon during its civil war.

Panama - 1958 - Troops landed after Panamanians demonstrations threatened the Canal Zone.

Vietnam - 1950s-75 - Vietnam War.

Cuba - 1961 - The CIA-directed Bay of Pigs invasions failed to overthrow the Castro government.

Cuba - 1962 - The Navy quarantines Cuba during the Cuban Missile Crisis.

Laos - 1962 - Military occupied Laos during its civil war against the Pathet Lao guerrillas.

Panama - 1964 - Troops sent in and Panamanians shot while protesting the United States presence in the Canal Zone.

Indonesia - 1965 - The CIA orchestrated a military coup.

Dominican Rep- 1965-66 - Troops deployed during a national election.

Guatemala - 1966-67 - Green Berets sent in.

Cambodia - 1969-75 - Military sent in after the Vietnam War expanded into Cambodia.

Oman - 1970 - Marines landed to direct a possible invasion into Iran.

Laos - 1971-75 - Americans carpet-bomb the countryside during Laos' civil war.

Chile - 1973 - The CIA orchestrated a coup, killing President Allende who had been popularly elected. The CIA helped to establish a military regime under General Pinochet.

Cambodia - 1975 - Twenty-eight Americans killed in an effort to retrieve the crew of the Mayaquez, which had been seized.

Angola - 1976-92 - The CIA backed South African rebels fighting against Marxist Angola.

Iran - 1980 - Americans aborted a rescue attempt to liberate 52 hostages seized in the Teheran embassy.

Libya - 1981 - American fighters shoot down two Libyan fighters.

El Salvador - 1981-92 - The CIA, troops, and advisers aid in El Salvador's war against the FMLN.

Nicaragua - 1981-90 - The CIA and NSC directed the Contra War against the Sandinistas.

Lebanon - 1982-84 - Marines occupied Beirut during Lebanon's civil war; 241 were killed in the American barracks and Reagan "redeployed" the troops to the Mediterranean.

Honduras - 1983-89 - Troops sent in to build bases near the Honduran border.

Grenada - 1983-84 - American invasion overthrew the Maurice Bishop government.

Iran - 1984 - American fighters shot down two Iranian planes over the Persian Gulf.

Libya - 1986 - American fighters hit targets in and around the capital city of Tripoli.

Bolivia - 1986 - The Army assisted government troops on raids of cocaine areas.

Iran - 1987-88 - The United States intervened on the side of Iraq during the Iran-Iraq War.

Libya - 1989 - Navy shot down two more Libyan jets.

Virgin Islands - 1989 - Troops landed during unrest among Virgin Island peoples.

Philippines - 1989 - Air Force provided air cover for government during coup.

Panama - 1989-90 - 27,000 Americans landed in overthrow of President Noriega; over 2,000 Panama civilians were killed.

Liberia - 1990 - Troops entered Liberia to evacuate foreigners during civil war.

Saudi Arabia - 1990-91 - American troops sent to Saudi Arabia, which was a staging area in the war against Iraq.

Kuwait - 1991 - Troops sent into Kuwait to turn back Saddam Hussein.

Somalia - 1992-94 - Troops occupied Somalia during civil war.

Bosnia - 1993-95 - Air Force jets bombed "no-fly zone" during civil war in Yugoslavia.

Haiti - 1994-96 - American troops and Navy provided a blockade against Haiti's military government. The CIA restored Aristide to power.

Zaire - 1996-97 - Marines sent into Rwanda Hutus' refugee camps in the area where the Congo revolution began.

Albania - 1997 - Troops deployed during evacuation of foreigners.

Sudan - 1998 - American missiles destroyed a pharmaceutical complex where alleged nerve gas
components were manufactured.

Afghanistan - 1998 - Missiles launched towards alleged Afghan terrorist training camps.

Yugoslavia - 1999 - Bombings and missile attacks carried out by the United States in conjunction with NATO in the 11 week war against Milosevic.

Iraq - 1998-2001 - Missiles launched into Baghdad and other large Iraq cities for four days. American jets enforced "no-fly zone" and continued to hit Iraqi targets since December 1998.

** These 100 instances of American military >intervention did not include times when the United States:**

(1) deployed military police overseas;

(2) mobilized the National Guard;

(3) sent Navy ships off the coast of numerous countries as a show of strength;

(4) sent additional troops to areas where Americans were already stationed;

(5) carried out covert actions where American forces were not under the direct rule of an American command;

(6) used small hostage rescue units;

(7) used American pilots to fly foreign planes;

(8) carried out military training and advisory programs which did not involve direct combat.

** U. S. Government Assassination Plots **

Following is a list of prominent foreign leaders whose assassination (or planning for same) the United States has been involved in since the end of Second World War. The list does not include several assassinations in various parts of the world carried out by anti-Castro Cubans employed by CIA and headquartered in the United States:

LIST A: NON MUSLIMS

1949 - KIm Koo, Korean opposition leader
1950's - CIA/Neo-Nazi hit list of numerous political figures in West Germany
1955 - Jose' Antonio Remon, President of Panama
1950's Chou En-lai, Prime Minister of China, several attempts on his life
1951 - Kim Il Sung, Premiere of North Korea
1950s (mid) - Claro M. Recto, Philippines opposition leader
1955 - Jawar Lal Nehru, Prime Minister of India
1959 and 1963 - Norodom Sihanouk, leader of Cambodia

1950s-70s - Jose Figueres, President of Costa Rica,
two attempts on his life
1961 - Francois "Papa Doc"Duvalier, leader of Haiti
1961 - Patrice Lumumba , Prime Minister of Congo (Zaire)
1961 - Gen. Rafael Trujillo, leader of Dominican Republic
1963 - Ngo Dinh Diem, President of South Vietnam
1960s - Fidel Castro, President of Cuba, more than 15 attempts on his life
1960s - Raul Castro, high official in government of Cuba
1965 - Francisco Caamanao, Dominican Republic opposition leader
1965 - Pierre Ngendandumwe, Prime Minister of Burundi
1965-6 - Charles de Gaulle, President of France
1967 - Che Guevara, Cuban leader
1970 - Salvadore Allende, President of Chile
1970 - General Rene Schneider, Commander-in-Chief of Army, Chile
1970s and 1981 - Gen. Omar Torrijos, leader of Panama
1972 - General Manuel Noriega, Chief of Panama Intelligence
1975 - Mobutu Sese Seko, President of Zaire
1976 - Michael Manley, Prime Minister of Jamaica
1983 - Miguel d'Escoto, Foreign Minister of Nicaragua
1984 - The nine commandantes of the Sandanista National Directorate
1980's - Dr. Gerald Bull, Canadian Ballistics Scientist assassinated by Mossad in Belgium.

Partial List of Muslim Leaders Assassinated or Attempted Assassinations

1950's Sukarno, President of Indonesia
1957 Gamal Abdul Nasser, President of Egypt
1960 Brigadier General, Abdul Karim Kassem, Leader of Iraq
1980-86 Muammar Qaddafi, Leader of Libya, several plots and attempts upon his life
1982 Ayatullah Khomeini, Leader of Iran
1983 General Ahmed Dlimi, Moroccan army Commander
1985 Sheikh Mohammed Hussein Fadllallah, Lebanese Shiite Leader (80 people killed in that attempt)
1991 Saddam Hussein, Leader of Iraq

** Reference: Blum, William, "KILLING HOPE - U.S. Military and CIA Interventions Since World War II," Appendix III U.S. Government Assassination Plots, page 453, Common Courage Press, Monroe, Maine 1995. ISBN 1-56751-052-3 ** *

Ibrahim says; hence judging from the above , I would have a problem trying to believe, the American people have been dumb all this while.

[quote]
Originally posted by Nadia_H:

  • Ibrahim earlier: Hence, that is the truth behind the double talk, double think and double do nature of the current Judeo Christians who are in control and what some people who have gone out to help the Muslim will not be worth anything when you will end up being castigated like the Iraqis in the long run. *

I am not too certain about "double talk" being something that is restricted to Jews and Christians alone and something that we Muslims are immune from. Muslim leaders, a few of whom occupy such privileged positions vis-a-vis the US, have been deafeningly silent regarding issues such as Palestine, Iraq, Afghanistan, Sudan, Chechnya, etc. Based upon my own (albeit limited) personal experiences, I know many more Christians who are involved in campaigning against the sanctions on Iraq than I know Muslims.
[/quote]

Ibrahim says; Yes!! all human beings can involved themselves in double talk including you and me but I am sure you do understand that what ever accusations and evidences that the Jews and Christians ( Americans) have placed forward concerning their participation in the middle east is now exposed as “double talk” by what they have passed in their senate , when most people are looking at what has happened or will happen, these people are establishing the fact the Jerusalem belongs to Israel by their own desires. . …don’t you think so?

You have hit the jack pot when you have observed why Muslim leaders are quite and the answer lies in the fact that these people have been placed there by events orchestrated by the Zionist movement which may be better understood when you try an look at the protocols that they have established to control others.

Suggest you look up Protocols of the Zion elders. And also look up the illuminati, freemasons, Lions club, Jaycees and their activities.

The intervention by Muslims are boycotted by the Judea Christian media ( all the global media is owned by about 10 conglomerates which belongs to Jews or Christians) . meaning what ever effort made by Muslims are down played or messed up by media .

At the same time it is fact that there are good Christians and Jews who hate Zionism , who oppose all this and are also trying to expose this atrocity their own people are committing.

[quote]
Originally posted by Nadia_H:
Which is what the book of revelations (bible) ask them to do.

Sorry, do you mind if I ask for a referenced quote from the Bible for this.
[/quote]

Ibrahim says . The Book of revelations is a vision that Christian believe will take place in the future and is mystical in nature and it would be good to read it completely, It is the final chapter in the Gospel.

Anyway

Here are some.

Rev 2: 26. To him who overcomes and does my will to the end, ** I will give authority over the nations—

  1. `He will rule them with an iron scepter; he will dash them to pieces like pottery' ** -- just as I have received authority from my Father.

Rev 3:11. I am coming soon. ** Hold on to what you have, so that no one will take your crown. **

  1. Him who overcomes I will make a pillar in the temple of my God. Never again will he leave it. I will write on him the name of my God ** and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem,** which is coming down out of heaven from my God; and I will also write on him my new name.

Rev 6:8 8. I looked, and there before me was a pale horse! Its rider was named Death, and Hades was following close behind him. ** They were given power over a fourth of the earth to kill by sword, famine and plague, and by the wild beasts of the earth. **

Rev 9: 4. ** They were told not to harm the grass of the earth or any plant or tree, but only those people who did not have the seal of God on their foreheads.

  1. They were not given power to kill them, but only to torture them for five months. **

Rev 9 15. ** And the four angels who had been kept ready for this very hour and day and month and year were released to kill a third of mankind.

  1. The number of the mounted troops was two hundred million.** I heard their number.

  2. The horses and riders I saw in my vision looked like this: Their breastplates were fiery red, dark blue, and yellow as sulfur. The heads of the horses resembled the heads of lions, ** and out of their mouths came fire, smoke and sulfur.

  3. A third of mankind was killed by the three plagues of fire, smoke and sulfur that came out of their mouths. **

Rev 14: 8. A second angel followed and said, "Fallen! Fallen is ** Babylon the Great,** which made all the nations drink the maddening wine of her adulteries."

  1. A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: "If anyone worships the beast and his image and receives his mark on the forehead or on the hand,

  2. he, too, will drink of the wine of God's fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. ** He will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb.

    1. And the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever. ** There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name."

Rev 16: 19. ** The great city split into three parts, and the cities of the nations collapsed. ** God remembered Babylon the Great and gave her the cup filled with the wine of the fury of his wrath.

  1. Every island fled away and the mountains could not be found.

    1. ** From the sky huge hailstones of about a hundred pounds each fell upon men. ** And they cursed God on account of the plague of hail, because the plague was so terrible.

Ibrahim says’ Babylon would be Iraq in Christian understanding and this chapter is ,mystical in nature hence one must have general understanding of the entire bible to understand what is being conveyed. In this chapter .

Hope this helps.

7

Ali_R and Ibrahim, many many thanks for your replies. Would like to give an appropriate response, but am moving so will address this thread in about a week's time or so. Many thanks for your patience.

[This message has been edited by Nadia_H (edited September 24, 2001).]

8

unfortunately won't get time later so best to send the reply now.
*
[quote]
Originally posted by Ali_R:*
*Even they. Public supports them, otherwise they would protest every day. *
[/quote]

Many thanks for your reply, Ali_R. I understand and appreciate where you are coming from, but the "public" includes individuals such as you and me - it's not merely Caucasian or non Muslim individuals who have the freedom, as well as the obligation, to speak out. Just my opinion, but I think that if ordinary Americans are responsible for the hypocritical slant of their government's foreign policies (such as showing positive bias towards Israel), then that includes all ordinary Americans - including all Muslim Americans and all non Caucasians who are American citizens who choose not to actively oppose such policies. There are quite a few orgs. based in the US that are heavily involved with diverse socio-political issues - this is just my guess and I admit I don't have any official numbers to back me up on this, but I fail to see as many Muslims in western countries politically organizing in the same manner. This is somewhat related to the post by Jannu in another forum (Cafe?), where he commented on his perceptions of the lack of participation from US-based Muslims to properly define and explain issues such as Islam, human rights, jihad, etc. Perhaps each of us who lives in today's silent democracies are all responsible, to varying degrees, for what occurs outside of our countries - regardless of our religions?

...not accurate either on the other hand there MUST be those who oppose it...
Yes, there are... one individual (who happens to be non Arab and non Muslim) from a social justice-oriented org. left his home in Colorado a few years back to live in Palestine to better comprehend what was actually occurring there; since then, he has published numerous pieces in US-based newspapers, been interviewed dozens of times, and conducted lectures and seminars in an attempt to raise awareness of this issue. Of course I know there are Americans out there who are actively opposing some policies endorsed by their government; what is needed is to have more individuals (of all religions) choosing to participate in this sort of work and making their voices be collectively heard.

The Book of revelations is a vision that Christian believe will take place in the future and is mystical in nature and it would be good to read it completely, It is the final chapter in the Gospel.
Many many thanks for your interesting quotes, Ibrahim. I'm extremely sorry but my knowledge of Christianity is at best minimal, mostly based upon what I can understand from my friends, so I hope you'll bear with me on this. In one of your earlier posts, you stated that the Book of Revelations tells Christians to "castigate" the people of Iraq, and you provided some quotes for this. If, as you state at the end of your most recent post, one must understand the Bible in its entirety to properly understand that particular chapter, isn't it possible that all of the above quotes should be viewed in the context of other just as important quotes from the Bible - many of which call for peace and justice towards all?

Perhaps this chapter is more of an interpretation of the historical background of Iraq/Babylon, and not so much a present-day order to 'castigate' Iraqis? Just my opinion, but I think it would be similar to someone extracting a Quranic quote that refers to conflict, and using that as the basis to argue that Islam preaches violence.

9

[quote]
Originally posted by Nadia_H:
lack of participation from US-based Muslims to properly define and explain issues such as Islam, human rights, jihad, etc. Perhaps each of us who lives in today's silent democracies are all responsible, to varying degrees, for what occurs outside of our countries - regardless of our religions?
[/quote]

Ibrahim says: Sorry to jump in here but you must understand one thing here, those Muslims who migrated to USA are second class citizens, this is normal thinking in their own perceptions and even If they dare voiced out anything that caused a commotion in their host country they might get branded as unacceptable immigrants and get persecuted .

See how the Americans reacted when they were falsely misled to believe the WTC affair was done by Arabs or Muslims from the start, not only did Arabs got abused but anyone who looked like or dressed like an Arab also had to hide . This same situation took place when the japs bombed pearl harbor all the Japanese were rounded up and put into camps and maltreated in USA. (this situation on how to handle the Arabs/Muslims was etched into the minds of the Americans by the film “siege”, very recently) So you need to understand that when you are in the minority you need to adjust your boundary markers according to the host nation and its capability to falsely accuse anyone and harm them accordingly. A number of imams are in prison and even one who is supposed to have his trial this month have had his trial postponed to next year, which is an abuse on his civil rights.

Just for your info, before the WTC collapse FBI had closed down a Muslim ISP, which catered for many Muslim web sites including CAIR and even a charity organizations in that building without any evidence.

Hope you understand due to current fear about internet, emails and communication channels being monitored by the Americans and British, Muslims would generally fear to voice their opinions even, and I cannot blame them because their fear of man is greater than their fear of Allah (swt)

[quote]
Originally posted by Nadia_H:
Ibrahim earlier .not accurate either on the other hand there MUST be those who oppose it...*

Yes, there are …..
[/quote]

Ibrahim says; Yes! that is what I am stressing by saying there “MUST BE”, meaning “there will be” because we human beings have been given freedom of choice and we were basically created with goodness in our hearts . As for your point that , there is lack of participation , kindly read above point than consider this, If you were lacking communicating skills in English and your mother tongue was not English how well would you be fairing in an English environment ?

Second when the Islamic ideology is all about prevention and the western ideology is about finding a cure after failing to observe the preventions, there is bound to be a big gap in mixing freely.

[quote]
Originally posted by Nadia_H:

  • Ibrahim earlier: The Book of revelations is a vision that Christian believe will take place in the future and is mystical in nature and it would be good to read it completely, It is the final chapter in the Gospel.*

Many many thanks for your interesting quotes, Ibrahim. I'm extremely sorry but my knowledge of Christianity is at best minimal, mostly based upon what I can understand from my friends, so I hope you'll bear with me on this. In one of your earlier posts, you stated that the Book of Revelations tells Christians to "castigate" the people of Iraq, and you provided some quotes for this. If, as you state at the end of your most recent post, one must understand the Bible in its entirety to properly understand that particular chapter, isn't it possible that all of the above quotes should be viewed in the context of other just as important quotes from the Bible - many of which call for peace and justice towards all?
[/quote]

Ibrahim says; What I was trying to convey had to do with the mystical nature of this chapter and how different Christian denominations may interpret it. I had to stress this point because not all Christian denominations will interpret it that way. Have you heard of Armageddon ?. Find out what it is supposed to be and than find out how this chapter conveys that notions.

Just for your info, let me give you an idea on how Christians study the Bible, they are taught to read specific passages in the church , in fact ** a seminarian is forbidden from reading a bible in its entirety when he is in the seminary ** , simply because only specific passages are to be memorized and repeated over and over again .

Hence when I suggested one should have greater understanding of the Bible I meant you should know what the Christians have been avoiding to read or preach.

Let me give you an idea. ( sorry about the length, but I try my best to give as much info as possible at one go)

Numbers 25:4

And the LORD said unto Moses, ** Take all the HEADS of the people, and HANG them up before the LORD AGAINST THE SUN, ** that the fierce anger of the LORD
may be turned away from Israel.

Deuteronomy 20:16

But of the cities of these people, which the LORD thy God doth give thee [for] an inheritance, ** THOU SHALT SAVE ALIVE NOTHING THAT BREATHETH: **

Deuteronomy 20:17

But ** thou shalt UTTERLY DESTROY them; [namely], the Hittites, and the Amorites, the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites; as the LORD thy God hath COMMANDED THEE: **

Judges 1:4

And Judah went up; and ** the LORD delivered the Canaanites and the Perizzites
into their hand: and they SLEW of them in Bezek TEN THOUSAND MEN. **

Judges 1:5

And they found Adonibezek in Bezek: and they fought against him, ** and they
SLEW the Canaanites and the Perizzites. **

Judges 1:6

But Adonibezek fled; and ** they pursued after him, and caught him, and CUT
OFF HIS THUMBS AND HIS GREAT TOES. **

(Ezek. 9:5] And the Lord said, ** "Go through the city, and smite: let not your
eye spare, neither have you pity. SLAY UTTERLY OLD AND YOUNG, BOTH MAIDS AND LITTLE CHILDREN, AND WOMEN. **

[Num. 31:1] And the Lord said unto Moses, "Avenge the children of the Mid'-an'ites.. They warred against the Mid'-i-an'ites, as the Lord commanded Moses, ** and they slay all the males. And they took all women as captives, and their little ones, and took the spoil of all their cattle, and all their flocks, and all their goods. And they burnt all their
cities wherein they dwelt, and all their goodly castles, with fire ** . Moses
said, "HAVE YOU SAVED ALL THE WOMEN ALIVE? ** NOW KILL EVERY MALE AMONG THE LITTLE ONES, AND KILL EVERY WOMAN that has known a man by lying with him, but all the young girls who have not known a man by lying with him keep alive for yourselves. **

[Josh 6:16] Joshua said to the people of Israel, "The Lord has given you the city (of the Canaanites).. all silver, and gold, and vessels of brass and iron, are c consecrated unto the Lord: They shall come into the treasury of the Lord. ** The people utterly DESTROYED ALL THAT WAS IN THE CITY, BOTH MAN AND WOMAN, YOUNG AND OLD, AND OX AND SHEEP, AND ASS, WITH THE EDGE OF THE SWORD. **

KILLING, KIDNAPPING, SLAVERY

[Josh. 16:10] So the Canaanites have dwelt in the midst of E'phraim to this day, but become ** slaves to do forced labour. ** (see also Joshua 17:13 and Judg. 1:30) [Judg. 21:10] The congregation of Benjamin ** sent twelve thousand of their bravest men, and commanded them, "Go and smite the inhabitants of Ja'-besh-gil'ead with the edge of the sword; also the women and the little ones. Every male and every woman that has lain with a male YOU SHALL UTTERLY DESTROY. **

And they found among the inhabitants four hundred YOUNG VIRGINS who had not
known a man by lying with him; and they brought them to the camp of Shiloh, which is the land of Canaan. And Benjamin returned at that time, and they gave them the women whom they had saved alive of the women of Ja'besh-gil'ead, but they did not suffice for them.

STEALING WOMEN !!

And they commanded the Benjaminites, saying: ** "Go and lie in wait in the vineyard, and watch, if the daughters of Shiloh go out to dance in the dances, then come out of the vineyard and seize each man his wife from the daughters of Shiloh. ** And the Benjaminites did so, and took their wives from the dancers whom they caught.

KILL THEM AND TAKE THEIR PROPERTIES

[Deut. 20:10] When you draw near to a city to fight against it, offer terms of
peace to it. ** And if its answer to you is peace and it opens to you, then all
the people who are found in it SHALL BE FORCED LABOUR FOR YOU AND SHALL SERVE YOU. **

But if it makes no peace with you, ** then you shall besiege it, .. YOU SHALL PUT
ALL ITS MALES TO THE SWORD, BUT THE WOMEN AND THE LITTLE ONES, the cattle and every thing else in the city all its spoil, YOU SHALL TAKE AS BOOTY FOR YOURSELVES; AND YOU SHALL ENJOY THE SPOIL OF YOUR ENEMIES. **

REVENGE, SWORD, FIRE !!

[Heb. 12:29] OUR GOD IS DESTROYING FIRE. [Psalm. 94:1] O LORD, YOU GOD OF VENGEANCE. [Job 7:21] Why do not you pardon my transgression and take away my iniquity? [Ezek. 11:8] God said, "You have feared the sword, the sword I will bring upon you." [Amos 9:1] I will slay that left of them with the sword, not one of them shall flee away.. I WILL COMMAND THE SWORD, AND IT SHALL SLAY THEM. [Jer.49:37] I will send the sword after them, until I have consumed them.
[Ezek. 12:14] I will unsheathe the sword after them. I will let a few of them escape from the sword, from famine and pestilence.

** (Let those who say Islam is the religion of the sword know that the word "sword" is never mentioned in the Quran while the Bible mentions it many times, in the way that you see here.) **

THE BIBLE MISREPRESENTS GOD'S MERCY

[Jer. 19:7] The Lord said, "T WILL MAKE THEM EAT THE FLESH OF THEIR SONS AND THEIR DAUGHTERS, and every one shall eat the flesh of his neighbour. [Levi.26:14] If you will not hearken to me..21 I will bring a sword upon you.. 29 YOU SHALL EAT THE FLESH OF YOUR SONS, AND DAUGHTERS. [Lam. 2:20] LOOK O LORD, AND SEE! WITH WHOM YOU HAVE DONE THAT: SHOULD WOMEN EAT THEIR FRUIT AND CHILDREN OF A SPAN LONG? [Lam. 4:4] The hands of compassionate women have boiled their own children they became their food.

SWORD AND FIRE IN NEW TESTAMENT

[Math. 10:34] "Do not think that I have come to make peace on earth? I HAVE NOT COME TO BRING PEACE, BUT A SWORD. "For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother."[said Jesus]! [Luk. 12:49] 'I CAME TO CAST FIRE UPON THE EARTH, AND WOULD THAT IT WERE ALREADY KINDLED.. DO YOU THINK THAT I HAVE COME TO GIVE PEACE ON EARTH? NO, I TELL YOU, BUT RATHER DIVISION; for from henceforth in one house there will be five divided, three against two, and two against three. They will be divided, father against son, and son against father, mother against daughter, and daughter against her mother. [said Jesus]! [Luk. 19:27] For these enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, BRING THEM HERE AND SLAY THEM BEFORE ME. [Luk. 14:26] If any one comes to me and does not HATE his own father and mother and wife, and children, and brothers and sisters yes and even his own life: he cannot be my disciple.

PAUL AND RACISM

[Gal. 2:15] Paul said, "We ourselves, who are Jews by birth and not Gentile sinners." [Gal. 4:22] For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by a slave, and by a free women. BUT WHAT DOES THE SCRIPTURE SAY? "CAST OUT THE SLAVE AND HER SON, FOR THE SON OF SLAVE SHALL NOT INHERIT WITH THE SON OF THE FREE WOMAN" SO, BRETHREN WE ARE NOT CHILDREN OF THE SLAVE BUT OF THE FREE WOMAN."

GENTILES IN THE BIBLE !!!

[Isia. 49:22] Thus the Lord said, "Behold I will lift up my hand to the gentiles, and raise up my signal to the people, and they shall bring your sons in their bosom, and your daughters shall be carried on their shoulders. Kings shall be your foster fathers, and their queens your nursing mothers. WITH THEIR FACES TO THE GROUND THEY SHALL BOW DOWN TO YOU, AND LICK THE DUST OF YOUR FEET. [Isia. 60:4] Lift up your eyes round about, and see, they all gather together, they come to you. THE WEALTH OF THE NATIONS

(in K.J.version: gentiles) SHALL COME UNTO YOU and the sons of the foreigners shall build up your walls, and their kings shall minister unto you...MEN MAY BRING UNTO YOU THE WEALTH OF THE NATIONS (in K.J. version: Gentiles)

WITH THEIR KINGS LED IN YOUR POSSESSION. ** For the nation and kingdom that will not serve you shall perish; those nations shall be utterly laid waste. YOU SHALL SUCK THE MILK OF THE NATIONS(in K.J. version: Gentiles), YOU SHALL SUCK THE BREAST OF KINGS. ** [Isia. 61:5] And strangers shall stand and feed your flocks, and the sons of the alien shall be your plowmen and your vinedresses. BUT YOU SHALL BE NAMED THE PRIESTS OF THE LORD. Men shall call you the ministers of God. YOU SHALL EAT THE RICHES OF THE NATIONS(in K.J.version Gentiles) AND IN THEIR GLORY SHALL YOU BOAST YOURSELVES.

TAKE USURY FROM THE GENTILES ONLY !!

[Deut. 23:19] "Do not charge your brother interest, you may charge a foreigner interest, but not a brother Israelite." (The word Israelite according to the Good News Bible) [Deut.15:1] Every creditor shall release what he has lent to his neighbour. He shall not exact it of his neighbour, his brother. Of a foreigner you may exact it. But whatever of yours is with your brother, your hand shall release.

EX 21:23-25, LE 24:17-21, DT 19:21 An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth, etc.

EX 22:20 Anyone who sacrifices to other gods must be destroyed.

LE 24:16 Whoever blasphemes the name of the Lord must be put to death.

NU 3:10 An unauthorized person who acts as a priest must be put to death.

DT 13:6-10 A man is required to slay his friends and members of his own family who are guilty of worshipping another god.

DT 17:12 A man who shows contempt for a judge or priest must be put to death.

DT 18:20-22, EZ 14:9 If a prophet's words do not come true, he is a false prophet and must be put to death. This is true even if he has been deceived by God himself.

DT 22:23-24 A betrothed virgin who is seduced in the city is to be put to death unless she cries for help.

PR 13:24, 22:15, 23:13 Children are to be disciplined with the rod-- if beaten with a rod, they will not die. (Note: Many Christian parents have inadvertently beaten a child to death following this precept.)

MT 5:29-30, 18:8-9, MK 9:43-47 If your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off.

MK 10:2-12, LK 16:18 Divorce is wrong, and to remarry is to commit adultery.

LE 20:10-12, DT 22:22 Adulterers (in some cases) must be put to death.

QUOTE]Originally posted by Nadia_H:
Perhaps this chapter is more of an interpretation of the historical background of Iraq/Babylon, and not so much a present-day order to 'castigate' Iraqis? Just my opinion,
[/quote]

Ibrahim says; Find out more on Armageddon and why some Christians have prepared for it at the new millennium, since that did not materialize and others are still hoping that it will be around april 2002 and you will see how it fits in to current context on what is happening across the globe.

[quote]
Originally posted by Nadia_H:
but I think it would be similar to someone extracting a Quranic quote that refers to conflict, and using that as the basis to argue that Islam preaches violence.
[/quote]

Ibrahim says; indeed!!! any passage can be taken out of context in any scripture but as I said before, you need to understand the Bible in its entirety and that is where I am coming form not based on misinterpreting of taking passages out of context. Try reading the above passages again and see how they can be taken out of context. For your info, I personally posses 14 versions of the Bible and cross reference from one version to another in my studies as and when needed.

Now do take note, that above verses are NOT to be considered as commandments of God or commandments of the Prophets but since it was written into the Bible as such , Jews and Christians have gone wrong in believing such things were approved for mankind.. ** At the same time many good morals and Ideals will also be found in the bible ** and that is why seminarians are taught to memorize only the good ones for 12 years at least so that they can start their ministry.

It is always good to explore it yourself, so feel free to get a bible and read it yourself . Please note the wordings may differ in different versions and some verses may go missing in some bibles.

BTW If you read the Talmud on what it says about the christians and the non jews, you would be digusted but very few christians know about them since that is kept hidden and christians would NEVER believe that jews harbor such thoughts.

10

Nadia_H you are right, but as i said ppl like we are the minority and jewish have the upper hand in America. Even if you try to oppose the Gov. you'll hardly have any chance.
I'll give you an example involving the recent issue:
Let's try to go out on the streets with anti Isreal (jewish) posters in your hands and demonstrate against the Gov. by blaming them to hush up the fact that Al Mossad had its hand in WTC attacks.
Do you think the American Gov. will sanction this protest? ...........

**
"Ever since the Jews invented the libel charge of 'anti-Semitism' in the 1880s (The word 'anti- Semitism' was first printed in 1880.' The Jewish Encyclopedia, Vol. I (1901), p. 641), it has been built up with Jewish money, organizations, propaganda, and lies (such as the Holocaust- Holohoax), so that now the word is like snake venom which paralyzes one's nervous system. Even the mention of the word 'Jew' is shunned unless used in a most favorable and positive context." (Charles A. Weisman, Who is Esau-Edom?, p. 63).**

More:

**
"Israel controls the Senate...around 80 percent are completely in support of Israel; anything Israel wants. Jewish influence in the House of Representatives is even greater." (They Dare to Speak Out, Paul Findley, p. 66, speaking of a statement of Senator J. William Fulbright said in 1973)
**

....forget it my friend.

*“na maiN momin vich masiitaaN, na maiN muusaa, na fir'aun!”
*

11

not certain if anyone even remembers this thread, although it’s so late I hope I can still respond to it.

those Muslims who migrated to USA are second class citizens, this is normal thinking in their own perceptions and even If they dare voiced out anything that caused a commotion in their host country they might get branded as unacceptable immigrants and get persecuted… So you need to understand that when you are in the minority you need to adjust your boundary markers according to the host nation and its capability to falsely accuse anyone and harm them accordingly.
To some extent, I agree. We’ve witnessed the fallout and the attacks against Muslims, Arabs, even against South Asians in general, from the recent terrorist attacks in the US. Even considering all that and the fact that Muslims may be in the minority in the ‘west’ and we may believe we are second-class citizens, I have doubts that we should use that to justify our collective lack of action. Nothing that is worth doing is ever easy, and I believe a significant part of the blame rests upon us as well - whether it’s regarding the issue of Chechnya, Afghanistan, Palestine, etc. My family has a very distinctive Muslim surname, and that has gotten us into a few difficult situations when I started anti-sanctions campaigning work a few years back. I remember last year around June/July being threatened by a Canadian governmental official that I would face imprisonment if I continued to support a Chicago-based anti-sanctions group, Voices in the Wilderness, (they were planning to take free medicines to Iraq as a symbolic gesture of defiance towards the embargo - the US govt’s. punishment for that is 12 years’ imprisonment and/or $250,000 in fines). He and I had a long-running dispute regarding that. I wholly understand where you’re coming from and I appreciate how difficult it can be as ‘newcomers’ to a country, but I don’t think we should use that as an excuse to justify our passivity. (Just my humble opinion, please don’t get offended

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/biggrin.gif

).

Find out more on Armageddon and why some Christians have prepared for it at the new millennium, since that did not materialize and others are still hoping that it will be around april 2002 and you will see how it fits in to current context on what is happening across the globe.
Aren’t there quite a few cults all around the world that believe Armageddon is fast approaching? Even considering the fact that many of them may have Christian members, I don’t think that relates to Christianity the religion.
I admit I didn’t read the different versions of the Bible, but I did come across an interesting statement from an article I was reading the other day. It reminded me of your earlier quotes regarding the “Book of Revelations”. I think the article was located in the most recent issue of Macleans, and was discussing the effects of these attacks upon Muslim Canadians; a few of the Quran’s principles were also discussed and the author mentioned that anyone could distort Quranic stipulations in much the same way that quotes from the Book of Revelations can be contorted to mean almost anything. I admit I haven’t read the different versions of the Bible as you kindly suggested to do; I don’t know if this will count, but I once took a religious studies class that discussed Judaism, Christianity, and Islam in great detail. While there are parts of the Bible that I disagree with and will always disagree with, I haven’t found it an intolerant, fanatical text. While there has been much mention of quotes from the Bible and Deuteronomy that apparently argue for death to those who may disagree, there are also many other quotes in the same texts that preach quite different values. The majority of Christians, just like the majority of Muslims, are peaceful and tolerant individuals. Probably like yourself and millions of other Muslims, I’ve lost track of how many times I have felt forced to clarify to ignorant individuals that Islam isn’t this fanatical, sword-brandishing, “warrior” religion, and so I also feel extremely uncomfortable brushing other religions as intolerant.