[quote]
Originally posted by Shah Jahan:
[/quote]
Unfortunately, you have not separated your responses from my points.
Can you edit, please and re-post.
Rabbeshrah lee sadree; wa yassirlee amree; yafqahoo qaulee.
http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/hehe.gif
this is so funny. Me as a shia has never heard, seen or known about my own Quran. this must be some sort of Joke. Shias have one quran and that quran is the same as the quran for the rest of Muslims. There are many shia hafiz-e-Quran but you wouldnt know that would you as your knowledge of shias is only what your mullah and hatef-filled fanatic Islami teacher told you(i think this is the first time you are actually have a discussion with one)
**
My Imambara(and all the others) have the same quran you see everywhere! This point has been raised and the moulana has said it is a conspiricy against Shias.
**
http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/hehe.gif
so what did the prophet recite? he ordered Hazrat Ali, way before the time you talk about to complie the quran. that is the quran we use now-a-days.
Listen, I am very happy you are trying to eduacte me but it doesnt mean you go slander what I belive in. My mom is a pious woman who has cleared every single doubt I have.
As for My Imams they are only 12 and the present one is in ghaib. He is Imama Mahdi and you sunnis also belive in his comming!
**
Who are you to decide who is teaching whom? If I am trying to understand your views it doesnt mean I have begun to belive them! To you your history is right but to me its all rubbish. You have given sahaba all the credit and left nothing for our prophet!
[quote]
Originally posted by Thap:
**I hope it is more than PR.
Islam needs normal muslims to become superstars in another sense. But superstars becoming muslims is ok too.**
[/quote]
Normal Muslims?????
- O ye who believe! if ye fear Allah, He will grant you a criterion (to judge between right and wrong), remove from you (all) evil (that may afflict) you, and forgive you: for Allah is the Lord of grace unbounded. al-Qur'an 8:29*
FYI:
The leader of the nation of islam has reciited the Shahadah in the presence of many Islamic scholars.
- O ye who believe! if ye fear Allah, He will grant you a criterion (to judge between right and wrong), remove from you (all) evil (that may afflict) you, and forgive you: for Allah is the Lord of grace unbounded. al-Qur'an 8:29*
[quote]
Originally posted by FactFinder:
*Can't help it. I have a good sense of humour and laugh at good jokes. If I am not debating on points with you what am I doing? Oh yes I am making fun and games, according to you.
*
[/quote]
Sarcasm is not very appreciated here......your answers are getting more and more ignorant and i am finding i hard to answer as I clear something and you repete it again....
**
[quote]
Good you have pointed out the flaw that I was trying to point out to our friend. Are you learning so fast, or did you know this?**
[/quote]
I knew this, and, you havent hought me scratch until now. All my life I have answered these questions and never gained a thing what will cange now? he was saying our roots are from the time of the prophet but yours are from the 4 schools.......(its true in a way)
**
[quote]
Sorry, I did not get the definition I was looking for. I wanted a simple answer. When the Qur'an mentions ahle bayt for anybody or when we use the words house of so-and-so, what does that mean. Are we going to split hairs to try and prove an incorrect point. Surely, you don't want us to believe that while talking about the household of the Prophet (sallallaho alaihe wasallam) Allah has distinguished betweeen the wives (radhi Allaho ajmaeen) and something else (definition needed)? Ahle-bayt means the members of the household.**
[/quote]
This is not the answer I was expecting.
The Quran, in that very verse has very clearly differed the wives from the Ahlul-bayt and you claim it had not!
**
[quote]
Good. So you are a Muslim. Very good, but what is point 5 then? And what is this abu ji...
**
[/quote]
Abu ji is abu baker(thats what I call him) and all shias are muslim(dont you forget that)
**
[quote]
So what do you have to say about everything that happened between the death of Rasool Allah (sallallaho alaihe wasallam) and the khilafah of ALi (radhi Allaho anho). Some of our readers are not aware of what shiaism is. Please enlighten them on the concept of khilafat of the Rightly Guided Khlifas before Ali (radjhiaAllaho anhum). And, no taqiyyah please.
**
[/quote]
We dont belive in the khilafa of the first 3 and the rest other than Ali(we dont belive in khlafa at all!)
The prophet had declared ali his sucsessor so as soon as the prophet pased away Ali bceame the Imam and lead those who wished to stay on the right path(us)
So as soon a the prophet passed away we already had a leader to follow! So we have no need of the Khaleefas!!
Our Imams
*Ali(as)
*Hassan(as)
*Hussain(as)
*Zain-ul-abideen(as)
*Baqir(as)
*Jaffar(as)
*Musa kazim(as)
*Reza(as)
*Naqi(as)
*taqi(as)
*Hassan askari(as)
*mahdi(as)
And why do you think "our readers" dont know anything just because you dont? Most people here have cleared up that mess and moved on! I dont see why you persist in this senseless exercise.....
[quote]
Originally posted by Shah Jahan:
**
As far as I know the prophet used to allow the practise in his time and it was abolished by Umer. **
[/quote]
This is an allegation on Prophet (PBUH).
[quote]
Originally posted by Shah Jahan:
** The prophet had declared ali his sucsessor so as soon as the prophet pased away Ali bceame the Imam and lead those who wished to stay on the right path(us)
**
[/quote]
And then why did the Prophet (PBUH) asked Abu-Bakar (RA) to lead the prayers before his death?
BTW, why do you guys use AS (Alai his-alam) for ur imamas. AS (Alai his-alam) is supposed to be used with prophets, like Musa (AS), Essa (AS). Do u give your imamas status of prophets?
i.e. non megastars…Megastardom only blessing or blighting a relatively small number of muslims…
My point was really we’re all superstars as muslims…so no great shakes a movie star becoming muslim but good all the same. No man should have that much responsibility …Will Smith if truly a muslim would have every aspect of his life scrutinised and would be a role model for many, too much responsibility if at all half hearted…
So if he did convert he would either have to drop out of the lime-light or be an extremely well apointed muslim.
Either way dont pick a fight with me I didn’t mean any harm
Youngbrat..name is gone but ideology remains?? what exactly is that? just torcher the women..whoever doesnt agree with ur beliefs just kill them..this is all worse then animals..and if u are proud of it then there is no use to agrue with u..actually i am scared..u are a taliban supporter..hey u might even kill me
hey sheraz youreally hate taliban dont you.
[quote]
Originally posted by Hinna:
**FYI:
The leader of the nation of islam has reciited the Shahadah in the presence of many Islamic scholars.
**
[/quote]
i have two words..SO WHAT??? as long as their official web page keep saying that they believe allah is in a shape of man Nauzubillah, Allah came to earth in the shape of a man and blacks are better than any other race, they are KAFIRS...ur so called fatwa wont do jack to bring those idiots into the circle of islam.i dont know what prood u guys need. i already gave it all and if u r not convinced, i am through with it.
I've followed this post which started with Will Smith (who btw has only shown an interest) and moved to Nation of Islam and suddenly somewhere it is now a Shia Sunni debate. Great.
The ONLY post of any merit is by Ibrahim (no surprises there). I however will hold my applause for the Hadiths quoted (no surprise their either) but will say that since it's from Ali, then it's suitable for most Shia's consumption.
See people,
THIS is EXACTLY what happens when you base your religion on PEOPLE!
One runs after 'ahl-e-bayt' the other after 'sahaaba's and pretty soon we have sects du jour with their own 'subset' of the religion each downplaying other's 'history' books.
STICK TO THE QUR'AN. is it that difficult?? really! It amazes me that people would waste their time reading dubious history books and follow personalities who could not show anyone the way unless ALLAH showed them the way.
Be real Muslims.. be real submitters to ALLAH ONLY just like Abraham was, and all the other prophets after him.
These are GOD's revelations that we recite to you truthfully. In which Hadith other than GOD and His revelations do they believe?(45:6)
[quote]
Originally posted by Sheraz CT:
and if u are proud of it then there is no use to agrue with u..actually i am scared..u are a taliban supporter..hey u might even kill me
[/quote]
Sheraz bhai, get a grip. Matter of fact get a life.
I have nothing more to say because it is futile.
We are the Taleban-Resistance is Futile
[quote]
Originally posted by Shah Jahan:
this is so funny.** Me as a shia has never heard, seen or known about my own Quran. this must be some sort of Joke. Shias have one quran and that quran is the same as the quran for the rest of Muslims. There are many shia hafiz-e-Quran but you wouldnt know that would you as your knowledge of shias is only what your mullah and hatef-filled fanatic Islami teacher told you(i think this is the first time you are actually have a discussion with one)**
[/quote]
Please refer to my quote in the proper chain on your beliefs. I have extracted a fabricated hadeeth from your sources to show that there is a Qur'an your ulema are waiting for. Your assertions are therefore baseless.
**
[quote]
so what did the prophet recite? he ordered Hazrat Ali, way before the time you talk about to complie the quran. that is the quran we use now-a-days.**
[/quote]
The recitation was from memory and scribes were writing down the Qur'an as and when it came down. Rasool Allah (sallallaho alaihe wasallam) was guiding them as to the compilation (what to go where, etc.) But the first actual compiled version came at the time of Abu Bakr (radhi Allaho anho). Anyway, it makes no difference as, to me it is immaterial. The only point is that shias should not be twisting history against people they openly hate.
**
[quote]
You have given sahaba all the credit and left nothing for our prophet!**
[/quote]
You are twisting my point here. I have not given or taken away any credit. The credit comes from Allah and no one else. As I have said earlier, it makes no difference whether it was Ali, Abu Bakr or Othman (radhia Allaho anhum) who compiled the Qur'an. The main thing is it was compiled and stays as it was revealed, unadultrated. There is no 'unadultrated' version that Mehdi (alaihe salam) will bring.
Rabbeshrah lee sadree; wa yassirlee amree; yafqahoo qaulee.
[quote]
Originally posted by Shah Jahan:
** We dont belive in the khilafa of the first 3 and the rest other than Ali(we dont belive in khlafa at all!)**
[quote]
If you believe in Ali (radhi Allaho anho), why don't you believe in the khulafa on whom he took bayt and accepted them as khulafa. To whom his daughter was married. After whom he named three of his sons. Isn't it an irony that you believe in someone and do not believe in what he believed in and followed.
[qoute]*The prophet had declared ali his sucsessor so as soon as the prophet pased away Ali bceame the Imam and lead those who wished to stay on the right path(us). So as soon a the prophet passed away we already had a leader to follow! So we have no need of the Khaleefas!!
*
[/quote]
This is your (shia) opinion. The evidence from Qur'an and ahadeeth is contrary to this.
**
[quote]
And why do you think "our readers" dont know anything just because you dont? Most people here have cleared up that mess and moved on! I dont see why you persist in this senseless exercise.....**
[/quote]
What mess? The mess of trying to understand a religion built on lies and deception. Yes, many people are not interested, because they are not aware of the deep flaws in your religion. The hatred that it has for everyone. The fact that you believe that all sunnis are kuffar and have kept you under persecution for 1400 years. That it is the right of the shias to rule.
I persist in this exercise because I want to save some of you from hell fire for disbelieving the Qur'an and the Prophet; believing that the Angel gibrael made a mistake in delivering the Message; abusing the beloved Companions and the wives of Rasool Allah.
Rabbeshrah lee sadree; wa yassirlee amree; yafqahoo qaulee.
[quote]
Originally posted by Shah Jahan:
Do I have to bring up the the question of how true the sahis really are? Again?
[/quote]
Ibrahim says; salaams to all
My dear Sha Jahan, this is Ramadan and a I try my best to be sweet and avoid discussions altogether in this month but your original statements were false ( which meant I had to rectify them) and I hope you have leant that they were based on your ignorance …furthermore your statements were originally based on hadiths ( which I refuted by using hadiths) and now you try and turn around and question its authenticity. Is this the way you want to end up, making a mockery of yourself?
[quote]
As you guys say "Show me from quran" I'll ask just that.
[/quote]
Ibrahim says; I doubt I would have said that, but it is possible you could have imagined it in your dreams. To me, I only need to know its references ( Qur’an or hadiths) and I will take it from there, to identify its authenticity or fabrication on my own by the Grace of Allah (swt) , IF Allah (swt) so willed, I will be able to provide the evidence that will demolish your claims as I have done on this thread.
But why did you fail to notice, I had already quoted the Qur’an concerning what was approved for mankind ?… let me run this past you again and see if you can grasp the meaning this time around.
- 24:33 ** Let those who find not the wherewithal for marriage keep themselves chaste until Allah gives them means out of His grace. ** And if any of your slaves ask for a deed in writing (to enable them to earn their freedom for a certain sum) give them such a deed if ye know any good in them; yea give them something yourselves out of the means which Allah has given to you. But force not your maids to prostitution when they desire chastity in order that ye may make a gain in the goods of this life. But if anyone compels them yet after such compulsion is Allah Oft-Forgiving Most Merciful (to them).
The practice of Muta was a pagan hindu custom which was practiced in times of travel and war (away from home for long durations) in Arabia and was abolished by the Prophet (pbuh) as narrated by Ali (ra) *
Now if that made little sense to you , let me help you further……
read!
24: 3 Let no man guilty of adultery or fornication marry any but a woman similarly guilty or an Unbeliever nor let any but such a man or an Unbeliever marry such a woman:** to the Believers such a thing is forbidden. **
Ibrahim says: ** Islam commands sex purity, for men and for women, at all times,-before marriage, during marriage, and after the dissolution of marriage. ** Those guilty of illicit practices are shut out of the marriage circle of chaste men and women
The law of marriage and divorce is made easy in Islam, so that there may be less temptation for intercourse outside the well-defined incidents of marriage. ** This makes for greater self-respect for both man and woman in Islam. **
Let me add to this for your wisdom
You see my brother, even this temporary associations ** (we may think of it as , “ call girl services” )** , when practiced on account of a “married man’s” lengthy travels from home where his wives may have been left behind or due to being stuck in the battlefields while having desires/dreams about his wives ) by the hindus/pre-Islamic arabs were only meant/allowed for three nights and with possible extensions for another three nights. It was like visiting a prostitute to get over these intense feelings he may be suffering from due to his wife being absent and not an approval to get another wife.
[quote]
Ideecent has a wealth of meaning, you know, and the verse doesnt even point towards the topic at hand...... Get me one from quran and I will belive it is wrong......
[/quote]
Ibrahim says; Apparently you seem to focus on the verse that I quoted as an admonition for one and all ( after exposing your misconceptions) while negating the verse I quoted to convey its illicit nature. ( temporary spouses = prostitution)
What a shame! , even in Ramadan you have failed to understand what is clear. (When the only shaitan you have to deal with is what is a part of you)
Since you would prefer more clarity concerning the illicit nature of the “muta” associations enjoined in shi ism
Let me guide you and your Shia brethren further
Read!
2: 235 There is no blame on you if ye make an offer of betrothal or hold it in your hearts. Allah knows that ye cherish them in your hearts: ** but do not make a secret contract with them except in terms honorable ** nor resolve on the tie of marriage till the term prescribed is fulfilled. And know that Allah knoweth what is in your hearts and take heed of Him; and know that Allah is Oft Forgiving Most Forbearing
commentary by Yusof Ali
A definite contract of remarriage for the woman during her period of 'Iddat of widowhood is forbidden as obviously unseemly, ** as also any secrecy in such matters. ** It would bind the woman at a time when she is not fitted to exercise her fullest judgment. But circumstances may arise when an offer (open for future consideration but not immediately decided) may be to her interests, and this is permissible. ** In mystic interpretation the cherishing of love in one's heart without outward show or reward is the true test of sincerity and devotion. **
2: 241 For divorced women maintenance (should be provided) on a reasonable (scale). ** This is a duty on the righteous. **
2: 282 ** O ye who believe! when ye deal with each other in transactions involving future obligations in a fixed period of time reduce them to writing. **
Ibrahim says; The Al-Quran is a living miracle and all its ayats are signs for mankind of all generations . If you had put your faith in it, you will be able to understand what is being conveyed in the above verses which directly forbids muta ( since it is a secret contract between a man and a women contracted on dishonorable terms and both parties would rather not divulge that they are practicing muta openly. In addition what is bestowed upon a divorced women is not upheld in muta , nor is it reduced to writing.
A marriage between two people have to be open and made under honorable terms . The terms that muta enjoins are dishonorable to the women and no women in her sound mind would be willing to sell her body for short periods of time unless out of dire need to survive.
There is the union in marriage: it is not only like the physical union of animals, but it gives rise to relationships arising out of the sexes of individuals who were not otherwise related to each other. They are not meant to be temporary but permanent and such relationships are ordained by Allah (swt)
Read!
25: 54 It is He Who has created man from water: ** then has He established relationships of lineage and marriage:** for thy Lord has power (over all things).
Hence anyone who goes around having temporary relationships with each other according to their whims and fancies because some ignorant shia imams approved it are running contrary to what Islam teaches .
Let me recap what Islam teaches
1) Keep chaste ( 24:33)
2) Adulterers or fornicators are to be punished and prohibited from marrying chaste women (24:3)
3) Do not make a secret contract except in terms honorable (2:235)
4) All future agreements must be written down and witnessed by others (2:282)
5) Women separated from marriages must be provided for a year (2:241)
6) Marriage is predestined by Allah (swt) (25:54)
ALL THE ABOVE TEACHINGS ARE NEGATED BY THOSE WHO PRACTICE AND ENJOIN MUTA
I hope you will realize Islam enjoins right conduct and what shi’ism enjoins in this case is down right folly. ** Even an Atheist will consider a women who practices muta as a prostitute. Would you knowingly let your sister to be one? ( I pray not) **
I pray you will come to your senses and except the facts on its merits not follow others blindly.
Was salaam
Ibrahim
[This message has been edited by Ibrahim (edited November 24, 2001).]
Shah Jahan;
People like FF opt for jahiliyat instead of truth.
They do not want to discuss the matter in a courteous manner, opting instead for slander and confusion.
They claim the Talibanic shariat is the truth, yet they have nothing to back it up with.
As Allah (swt) instructed our beloved prophet (pbuh), it is of no consequence if someone refuses to believe or chooses to remain in ignorance.
These individuals will avoid the core issues and bring in unrelated topics like mut'a and taqeeah - topics which have been discussed here in great detail on numerous occassions.
They do not realize that by speaking lowly of the sinless imams (as), they are in fact insulting their beloved sahabahs such as Imam Ali (as), Imam Hasan (as), and Imam Hussain (as).
Let it go. Taliban soldiers blowing themselves (committing suicide) up and killing their fellow soldiers sums up their "version" of the sharia.
Subhanal Lahai, Wal Humdo Lil Lahai. Wa la illah ha illal laho wal laho Akbar
[quote]
Originally posted by FactFinder:
**What mess? The mess of trying to understand a religion built on lies and deception. Yes, many people are not interested, because they are not aware of the deep flaws in your religion. The hatred that it has for everyone. The fact that you believe that all sunnis are kuffar and have kept you under persecution for 1400 years. That it is the right of the shias to rule.
I persist in this exercise because I want to save some of you from hell fire for disbelieving the Qur'an and the Prophet; believing that the Angel gibrael made a mistake in delivering the Message; abusing the beloved Companions and the wives of Rasool Allah.
**
[/quote]
FactFinder,
What makes one a Muslim? I have been taught that a Muslim is he who believes in the Oneness of Allah and in the prophet-hood of Muhammad (P.B.U.H) and as him being the last and greatest prophet of Allah. If you agree with this, then follow on; else, do not bother reading the rest of my message.
I am a Shiite, and I believe in the things out-lined above, if they make me a Muslim, then "flaws, lies and deceptions" in "my religion" are flaws, lies and deceptions in yours. I believed you meant to say "Mazhab" rather than religion. If my assumption is wrong, forgive me.
If you will, believe me when I say that the Shiite Mazhab teaches no hatred. If you were inclined to associate the actions of some extremist Shiites to the Shiite teaching, than I would advise you to be just and do the same for the Ahlul-Sunnah.
The Lashkar-e-Jhangvi in Pakistan has made an open declaration that the killing of Shiites will earn you a palace in Heaven. They claim the Shiites to be kuffar. If I am not mistaken, this group is the armed faction of the Sipah-e-Sahaaba (Army of the Companions) of Pakistan. If I were to believe that these were the teachings of the Ahlul-sunnah, than you tell me, who has hatred for whom? Who believes in the infidelity of whom?
I am trying to emphasize that hurling stones and pointing fingers at each other is going to lead to nothing but a few wounds and a very tired finger. I share an apartment with two Sunni friends of mine, I have prayed behind them and I have discussed aspects of Mazhab with them. Some of the things we have talked about are more serious and controversial than what most people would dare to discuss. Yet, I have always come out of these discussions feeling a bit more love for them, and a bit more respect.
You persist in your exercise because you want to save some of us from the hell fire. I truly admire your love for the Ummah, but it is my belief that the best way for each of us to save each other is to make Du’aa for each other; A prayer to see each other in the Yom-al-Qiyamah as those who have succeeded.
If we were to change our ways and respect each other’s beliefs, as we should, I guarantee you that the pains and humiliation, our brothers and sisters are facing around the world would be a thing of the past.
[quote]
Originally posted by a1shah:
**Shah Jahan;
People like FF opt for jahiliyat instead of truth.**
[/quote]
If pointing out the incorrect beliefs of others so that the people are wary of them is jahiliyat, I am happy doing this job.
**
[quote]
They do not want to discuss the matter in a courteous manner, opting instead for slander and confusion.**
[/quote]
Where have I slandered? I have only pointed out what shias believe amnd practice. Slander is more akin to your practices. When you curse the sahaba and the wives of Rasool Allah, that is slander. Not pointing it out.
**
[quote]
They claim the Talibanic shariat is the truth, yet they have nothing to back it up with.**
[/quote]
Where have I said that? The shariat is from Allah, through Rasool Allah (sallallaho alaihe wasallam). It is not from Taliban, and it is also not from Khomeini.
**
[quote]
As Allah (swt) instructed our beloved prophet (pbuh), it is of no consequence if someone refuses to believe or chooses to remain in ignorance.**
[/quote]
Who disagrees with this?
**
[quote]
These individuals will avoid the core issues and bring in unrelated topics like mut'a and taqeeah - topics which have been discussed here in great detail on numerous occassions.**
[/quote]
The issues are very relevant when Shia beliefs are being discussed. If they have been discussed at length earlier, so what. They are topics that will be raised everytime shiaism is discussed. For you they are core beliefs. For us they are both haram.
**
[quote]
They do not realize that by speaking lowly of the sinless imams (as), they are in fact insulting their beloved sahabahs such as Imam Ali (as), Imam Hasan (as), and Imam Hussain (as).**
[/quote]
The only Creation that is sinless is the malaika. The prophets were guided by Allah, but they also committed mistakes. How can the Imams be better than the Prophets?
Also, your insinuation that I have said anything against Ali, Hassan and Hussain (radhi Allaho anhum) is absolutely a twisting of facts. However, you are guilty of insulting the most beloved of the sahabas. Abu Bakr (radhi Allaho anho) was given the title of siddique. He was the closest companion and was deputed to lead the prayers when Rasool Allah was unable to.
Rabbeshrah lee sadree; wa yassirlee amree; yafqahoo qaulee.
[quote]
Originally posted by Shah Jahan:
**......
Take this for starters......
63.1) When the hypocrites come to you, they say: We bear witness that you are most surely Allah's Apostle; and Allah knows that you are most surely His Apostle, and Allah bears witness that the hypocrites are surely liars.
This truly means some pople embraced Islam but were fro the inside Munaafiq! And you call most of them sahabas!
.....
[This message has been edited by Shah Jahan (edited November 23, 2001).]**
[/quote]
Can you kindly tell me if this Sura is Meccan or Medinan (revealed in Mecca or Medina) ??? I beleive this is Medinan sura. Hazrat Abu Bakr, Omar, Osman, Ali.... all of these sahabas accepted Islam in Mecca. They accepted Islam when it was very dangerous to accept Islam, they didn't care of the challenge they had to face.
This particular sura is for those munafiquns who embraced Islam (apparently) in Medina ..... "to ride with winner". Whenever Prophet's (PBUH) people won a battle they said that they were Prophet's companions, allies etc, but when Prophet's (PBUH) men lost/received big damage in a battle they said that it was good that they didn't go to fight in that battle. I hope it gives you an idea for the background of this ayat. Also, if you recall "Masjid-e-Darrar".... rings bells?