One thing i’ve always had a hard time understanding is the the christian belief about Jesus (hazrat Isa pbuh)
One group of christains say he is the son of God (astagfarullah) and the other says jesus is God (astugfarullah). Catholics and protestant follow the same bible so could someone christian explain to me why there is this difference.
“Why cross an Ocean when you can cross a River”
[quote]
Originally posted by Arshia84:
One group of christains say he is the son of God (astagfarullah) and the other says jesus is God (astugfarullah). Catholics and protestant follow the same bible so could someone christian explain to me why there is this difference.
[/quote]
Both Catholics and Protestants believe that Jesus is the Son of God and also form part of God. They don't differ on this point. There is though considerable debate as to the "godly" abilities and nature of Jesus while he was on earth.
[This message has been edited by The Old Man (edited March 24, 2002).]
They believe that there are Three Persons in One God. These Three Persons - the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit - are distinct from one another yet they share the same Divine Nature. Thus they are not three distinct gods, but one God.
1+1+1 = 1???
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It’s definitely confusing. I went to a Protestant (Church of England) primary school (because there was no other schools around for miles) and I remember myself questioning my teacher even as an infant about the Trinity but I never got a satisfactory answer…
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It’s a bit like the Hindu Trimurti (Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva)
Even my Religious Studies (x christian) teacher says it’s a pagan oncept adopted by early Christians.
Pakistan Zindabad!
how do we know which one's god answers when we pray to? looks like every one's religen
is working for them other wise all would
have converted to one religen. if god so powerful why he should mislead people
to several different religens?
To some of us Christians the Trinity is openly known as a mystery.
God presents himself to us in three ways,
God the almighty father, creator of heaven and Earth, of the book spoken of by the Prophets,
Jesus his son, who was physical also a prophet and human.
The Holy Spirit of God. Which fills us during trying moments of our lives and sees us through situations that would otherwise be extremely difficult or impossible without Gods holy and spiritual intervention or assistance.
We can best relate to and comprehend the Human representative that God sent us (Jesus). And so we cling to him and his teachings, scratching our heads, and spending our lives marveling and struggling to understand the rest of the trinity.
It's a mystery that we are called to spend our lives trying to grasp.
It helps to think of this mystery and be aware of it as we struggle to discover what God is calling us to do with the life he has given us.
The Mystery of the Trinity is more about questions then answers.
This life long struggle with these questions are to bring us closer in our personal relationship with our Father.
It's a Christians major and daily "Jihad" so to speak.
[This message has been edited by MMike (edited March 24, 2002).]
the Christian Trinity comprises the
Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. This fits in extremely well with the
Traita-vada philosophy in its strictest form, which relates to the true
nature of Reality.
Of course, you will be aware of the view of the Advaita-vada and
Dvaita-vada philosophies on this matter - simply put, Advaitists say that
this Reality is fundamentally One, whilst Dvaitists maintain that there
are two separate entities - God and matter. Similarly, the Traitists
(most notable the Arya Samajists) argue that there are actually three
separate entities making up this Reality - God, the soul and matter.
God, the ultimately Sattvik entity, is invisible and formless. However,
whilst God Himself does not have any form (He is able to manifest Himself through the
medium of the physical Universe. Hence it is that God is manifest in each
and every particle of the physical Universe, whilst still being able to
remain completely detached from it all (this explains the concept of
"Vibhuti"). This formless nature of God is exemplified in a quote from
Shvetaashvetar Upanishad (taken from verses 6.8, 6.11 and 6.12):-
To create the Universe is the natural function of God. He does not
require a body or sensory organs for this. There is none equal to
God, so how can there be a being superior to Him. His power is great
and incomparable. In Him, the natural qualities of knowledge, power
and creativity exist.
Ibrahim says: Greetings of Peace to one and all
Dear Mmike, I do not know whether you have heard of Biddle, but let me quote him as to how he expounded this mystery that seems to have eluded you and other Christians alike.
Ibrahim says: as you can see he was a Christian and due to his argument with the church he had to die.
But leaving that aside I have to say even the Gospel denies such a theory
The Doctrine of Trinity' advocates that there are three Persons’, but the Godhead of the Father, of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, is One; such is the Father, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Spirit; the Glory equal, the Majesty co-eternal, neither compounding the `Persons’ nor dividing the Substance.
In brief; the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are “co-equal”, “co-eternal” and “co-substantial”. None is greater than the other, before or after the other in time or dissimilar than the other in substance.
I do not subscribe to the `Doctrine of Trinity’ because the under quoted twelve verses from the New Testament (NASB) categorically and in very EXPLICITE TERMS NEGATE the above concept.
“…I go to the Father; for the Father is greater than I”. John.14:28
“But I want you to understand that Christ is the head of every man, and the man is the head of a woman, and God is the head of Christ.” 1 Corin. 11:3
“Behold, My servant whom I have chosen; My Beloved in whom My soul is well pleased; I will put My Spirit upon him, and he shall proclaim justice to the Gentiles.” Matthew 12:18
“The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the God of our fathers, has glorified His Servant Jesus…” Acts 3:13.
5.. “For truly in this city there were gathered together against Thy holy Servant Jesus, whom Thou didst anoint…” Acts 4:27.
6.“For you first, God raised up His Servant, and sent him to bless you by turning every one of you from your wicked ways.” Acts 3:26
“And you belong to Christ; and Christ belongs to God.” 1 Corin 3:23.
“And this is eternal life, that they may know Thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom Thou hast sent.” John 17:3
“And Jesus said to him, `Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone.” Mark 10:18
“But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone.” Matthew 24:36
“Jesus said to her, 'Stop clinging to me; for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to my bretheren, and say to them, I ascend to my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.” John 20:17
“And he withdrew from them about a stone’s throw, and he knelt down and began to pray, saying, `Father, if Thou art willing, remove this cup from me; yet not my will, but Thine be done.” Luke 22:41-42
** Hot Tip: **
To those who advocate the `Doctrine of Trinity’ I request them to read Matthew 4:10;
** “Then Jesus said to him, `Begone, Satan! For it is written, You shall worship the Lord your God, and serve Him only.'”**
As such Muslims worship Allah alone and none of His Angels, Prophets, Messengers and Christs are equated with Him in this worship of the Almighty Creator.
Regards
Ibrahim
** constantly choosing the lesser of two evils is still choosing evil . **
Thanks for the info Ibrahim.
QUOTE]Originally posted by Ibrahim:
[/QUOTE]
as you can see he was a Christian and due to his argument with the church he had to die.
Setting the record straight:
John Biddle belonged to the Unitarian sect which originated in the 1400’s. This theological group of people’s concept of religion became popular during the 1400’s and was specifically propagated by Martin Cellarium (1499-1564) and Fausto Sozini (Socinus) (1539-1604). Biddle was a Johnny-come-later. Some of the teachings of this religious group are:
There is a number of inspired books of which the Bible, Qu’ran, writings of Buddha, Confucius, Lao and Vedas and Upanishads are all sources of revelation, none of which are infallible, but all of which contribute something to the religious growth and development of mankind.
That salvation is progressive and essentially a matter of character development joined with faith in God and good works, which are counted as a means towards an end of final redemption.
Jesus was just an ordinary human being.
Jesus was not born of a virgin.
There is no such thing as a Trinity/Tri-une God as claimed by Christianity.
It is impossible to believe what Biddle/Unitarians believe and to profess to be a follower of Jesus Christ (Christian). Biddle was persecuted as was various others (rightly or wrongly) by the Christian Church Leaders of the time.
To believe Biddle is a great Christian theologian is to believe Salmon Rushdie is the greatest theologian of the Muslim world in the 1900’s.
[This message has been edited by The Old Man (edited March 25, 2002).]
Ibrahim says : Greetings of Peace to one and all
Dear Old man, was missing you, good to see you are back
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Now I am sure you have tried to put forward a valid point that he was a Unitarian Christian, yet you have failed to realize the importance of what had been conveyed. Instead of looking at the argument you focused on who said it.
The argument is presented on the basis of the Bible as such there can be NO denial whatsoever as to who presented it. . This goes f or all religions including Islam, if someone came to me and quoted the Qur’an, I cannot discount it , be he Shia, ahmedia or even a Christian , jew or hindu ( based on his faith), I have to now focus on the argument and only after discounting that, I can conclude it was because of his faith he/she had misconceived.
Clearly you have not mentioned one word about the argument but spent your precious time on revealing what was Biddle’s personal inclinations.
My friend, ** even a broken clock can give the exact time two times each end every day. ** So I suggest, you remove the clouds in your mind by examining the arguments and biblical quotes in front of you.
** Remember the more clouds you have in your mind, the more tears you will have on the day of judgment. **
Ibrahim says; hold your horses old man, where have you got this idea that any one proclaimed Biddle as “the” great Christian theologian? Now try to assess the post I made and look at his arguments, see how rational they are? after that look at my additions from the gospel and see how true they are?
Ss far as I know salmon rush die ; ) never presented any rational arguments, are you aware of some that I have missed?
Anyway try to focus on the trinity issue and lets skip the side show.
Regards
Ibrahim
** Even God doesn’t judge others until their lives are over and have recorded every second of their lives on hard drive. Why should we judge others blindly? **
Some Christians practice physical healing. (very dramatic)
Some speak in tongues.
Some play with serpents and defy their venomous bite.
Some perform exorcisms,
Some can sing their hearts out.
Some just sit on their butt.
Some hate, kill, and condemn.
Some know every word of the Gospel forward and back.
Some think God is a woman.
Some believe Jesus is still alive!!
Some believe in the mystery of the trinity.
Some just worship with televangelists and send them money.
Okay I'm done.
Can someone explain why christians see singing hymns as an act of worship?
Never understood the concept myself.
"Why cross an Ocean when you can cross a River"
Before I get rather deep with our Christian friends. It would be good to get an answer to a related question.
It is a well known fact that the Son will one day replace the Father. This concept is accepted in all forms of life.
So if Jesus is the Son of God, when will he replace his father the current God and what will become of his father after replacement?
Please answer.
[quote]
Originally posted by sholay:
**
Before I get rather deep with our Christian friends. It would be good to get an answer to a related question.
It is a well known fact that the Son will one day replace the Father. This concept is accepted in all forms of life.
So if Jesus is the Son of God, when will he replace his father the current God and what will become of his father after replacement?
Please answer.**
[/quote]
I have never heard of this theory before, I distinguish Jesus as the son of the Father, but not the same person.
[quote]
Originally posted by sholay:
[/quote]
It is a well known fact that the Son will one day replace the Father.
"Fact"? Your own viewpoint...
So if Jesus is the Son of God, when will he replace his father the current God and what will become of his father after replacement?
Jesus will never replace the Father.
Hello Ibrahim. Did not leave, was and still am very busy. Did visit but most of postings were Muslim/Hindu related and I did not want to get involved.
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Read the debates as it tells me more about Islam.
hold your horses old man, where have you got this idea that any one proclaimed Biddle as “the” great Christian theologian?
Horses now standing still.
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You tend to lean rather heavily on Biddle now and in the past. Thought I would like to give some background. Fact is that Biddle is not accepted as a good source of Christian thought. I’m sure that you do not accept his other standpoints e.g. that the Qu’ran is fallible and that Jesus was not born of a virgin. By quoting and naming Biddle as a good source on Christianity, it might be accepted that you believe all he says. Rather voice your concerns directly. Let’s look at some of the points you raised:
In general the fact of the trinity, the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, in the one Godhead are readily recognised from Bible Scripture. There do exist different views/doctrines by different Christian denominations as to the nature of the relationship between these three Persons and the involvement of each of the three.
All the passages from the Bible as quoted by Biddle/yourself mainly refer to Jesus’ status as a man when he was on earth, not to his eternal status in God. Certain things only the Father can do, certain things only the Son Jesus can do, and certain things only the Holy Spirit can do.
One can always ask why shouldn’t one, but I won’t.
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The singing in church or when Christians get together, was originally started by Ambrose in ±385AD.
The Roman emperor Valentinian, persuaded by his mother Justina, attempted to force Ambrose to open his church for non-Christian gatherings. He refused and arranged a sit-in at the disputed church. He then proceded to introduce hymn-singing in order to keep the congregation’s spirits up while occupying the church. Finally the empress Juliana gave way.
In general Christian songs can be divided in three catagories. Psalms and other portions of the Bible; special ordained or composed songs; various non-official songs.
Some Christian groups sing only with church organs; some with any instruments; some with large bands; some only in choirs; some with somber faces; some joyously. There is no hard and fast rule although various denominations will have made certain rules as to the type of songs permitted and instruments to be used.
In general, hymn-singing enables the whole congregation to worship/praise God with the same words at the same time. Other songs are used to lift up the spirit of the people and some songs are used to profess human failings en masse. Singing the Bible Scriptures also enables one to easier memorize it and this practice have also been used by various people in the past in order to convey stories for example.
In the Psalms we see a wide variety of instruments used. According to Revelations there will be songs sang in heaven and earth.
Hope above helps.
[This message has been edited by The Old Man (edited March 26, 2002).]
Ibrahim says; Dear Old man, I get the feeling you are still zooming away on your horse
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I quote the arguments, biddle presented with regards to “TRINITY” because we are talking about trinity not about biddle and his inclinations.
Ibrahim says: could you be so kind enough to quote these scriptures, so that I can be enlightened by it?? Throw the Bible at me, I have no problem digesting verses.
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Ibrahim says: how can this be when you are aware, it can be readily recognized from Bible Scripture.? Was not the Holy spirit assigned to teach and correct such deviations or did Christians refuse to obey the holy spirit in such matters?
Ibrahim says: Thus Jesus ( false name, sorry have to make this CLEAR from the start ) is ** “a part” of God** ? Or is he just ** in ** God when he is not present as a man or God separated from Jesus when he is on earth and then join together to become one unit in heaven after being raised?
or is the Father actually jesus?
Ibrahim say: can you give me an example of the things the Father cannot do? Please quote Bible freely.
Ibrahim says: can you give an example of what only Jesus can do the Father cannot do? Please quote Bible freely .
Ibrahim says: So the holy spirit also can do things which the Father and Jesus cannot do? Some biblical references will go a long way my friend , so do quote them freely, I love them scriptures, so give to me all of it.
Having said that, when these three are in different locations, does the father remain as a whole or is he in pieces (such that he may become less capable as compared to when they are together as one unit)?
Regards
Ibrahim
** we behave wisely only after having experienced all other alternatives . **
[This message has been edited by Ibrahim (edited March 27, 2002).]
Thank you old man for ur input but it didn't clear up why it is still considered as an act of worship to God, since it was not originally practised by any of the prophets.
All the prophets postrated when they prayed, why don't christians?
Now we are actually getting somewhere.
If Jesus is the Son of God, then so is Adam, as he was created without any biological mother or father, and Eve, as she was created without a biological mother and so is Solomon the Son of God as the Bible quite categorically states Solomons sonhood:
Chronicles 1, 22:9
Behold, a son shall be born to thee, who shall be a man of rest; and I will give him rest from all his enemies round about: for his name shall be Solomon, and I will give peace and quietness unto Israel in his days.
Chronicles 1, 22:10
He shall build an house for my name; and he shall be my son, and I will be his father; and I will establish the throne of his kingdom over Israel for ever.
SO WHERE DOES THIS LEAVE THE CONCEPT OF TRINITY!