Why some things are missing from Quran ?

[X2]

Re: Why some things are missing from Quran ?

I heard that Hazrat Abu Bakr (I need to confirm that) burnt his compilation of 3000 hadees for the same reason that you mentioned (he was afraid that what if by mistake he passes a flawed version of the Hadees as that would be a huge disservice to Islam) - but also shows that hadees were compiled during prophet's time, just not in a book form.

so it shows that some people may have been keeping written records,
still does not show an effort to compile them the way Quran was compiled,
and really there was no reason for them not to compile the ahadeeth,

If they saw people passing away and realized how important hadeeth is and that there is no conclusive compilation,
they would have compiled them.

so, why did the sahaba not compile the hadeeth? why did it take centuries?
thousands of hadeeth were discarded, many that the people in that era would have been following as words of the prophet.
and there are differences in the hadeeth books anyways, most striking ones between books of shia and sunni
and then between sunni books as well. muslim and bokhari are not the only 2 books.

look guys, no disrespect to the prophet or to the sunnah or importance of his example as an example to aspire for as it applies in our lives for our time and place. However, something just does not add up with the hadeeth compilations. This is not to say they are all bunk, but that they are not all above scrutiny, and should be viewed as such.

as always, I can be 100% correct, 100% incorrect or somewhere in between, its just my view. I am not a scholar.

[psyah]

Re: Why some things are missing from Quran ?

Peace All

By consensus the Qur'an is protected by Allah (SWT), the preservation of the critical aspects of the Deen are also preserved. The hadith and fiqh rulings are in a state of dynamic equilibrium, the net effect of which is 'preservation' of the Deen. What we are falling into is the fallacy of judging the whole by some of its constituent parts. Even if history tells us that vast numbers of hadith were destroyed, or hadiths branded as fabrications, we should not deem this as evidence of the vulnerability of hadith, but rather a mechanism within the whole framework of 'preservation' of the Deen.

To address Mirch bhai:

> Quran does not make somethings specifically haram e.g alcohol although blood , pig meat are specifically made haram.
> It is hadees which tells us that alcohol is haram.

This is not really accurate. What the hadith provide in the way of direct prohibitions and duties are 'contextualisations' of the Qur'an. The hadith clarifies to us that alcohol is haram as mentioned in the Qur'an. A deeper wisdom perhaps taken on by the Hanafi fiqh regarding alcohol is that in some cases i.e. medicine pure alcohol has benefits that are permissible to be utilised and the wording in the Qur'an allows this interpretation.

*> But then we read in Quran that prophet cannot make anything haram which is not made haram by Allah. *

This is a connection that you have made between the hadith clarifying or contextualising the ayaat of the Qur'an and the nature of RasoolAllah. It is better to doubt ones own understanding of when a hadith seems to conflict with the Qur'an rather than draw for ourselves supposed conflictions to reconcile.

> Accepting interest is specifically made haram but paying interest is not made haram specifically.
> It is from hadees we find out that accepting and paying interest both are haram.

The same as above

> Death by stoning for rapists and out of wedlock sex is not prescribed in Quran specifically.
> It is from hadees that we find evidence for death by stoning for these crimes.

Again same as above ... remember also that Al-Qur'an Al-Majid is a 'template' scripture. When read in 1250 AD is applied to that time, when read today in 2010 AD it is applied to todays norms and when read some time in future to those norms. Much of the wisdom of avoiding specifics can be seen in the way different times have allowed relaxation and tightening of laws based on this beauty of 'interpretation' that provides the flexibility humans need so much and have been unable to obtain to some extent in previous iterations of Islamic scripture.

*> Same thing for prohibition for music and wearing of silk dress and gold for men. *

As before said

>Quran says that Prophet(SAW) never spoke anything on his own . He only said what all willed him to say. This is what is used as an evidence for all of the above prohibitions and death by stoning.

As above

> But I am sure this does not apply to many many things which prophet(SAW) said and did. Right ?

You will find in the references we have of what Muhammad (SAW) said or did is to elevate the rank of his Sahabi as well. I am of the belief that the whole of the life of Muhammad (SAW) was sacred and even his mistakes were a Mercy from Allah (SWT) since they all are linked to wisdoms. When he (SAW) offered his Sahabi to give advice or when certain discussions took place there was never insubordinance the Sahabi always followed without question. It is tenet of Islam that we follow instruction from our leader even if it is wrong, but if in a position to give advice we should do so in the best way.

> There are those who say and Prophet (SAW) used to receive open and secret revelations . How do we know which revelations were secret ?
> The mere proof that books of hadees have those revelations is not enough as hadees are fallible , one sect will take one hadees as authentic the other sect will not.

This is not true all Hadith Qudsi are considered Sahih to my understanding. Beside the process by which hadith are classified should be enough to gauge a good understanding. Also, it is one thing to say that different sects deem different hadith as authentic or not but quite another to say that they completely oppose each other, there are certainties that you should look for:

It is unlikely for a fully authentic hadith of one sect to be down graded as fabricated by another sect to but to reliable may be. You may get some which say ahad hadith can be used to extract rulings and others saying that only muttawatir hadith can extract rulings. You will not get blatant contrasts that is what I am saying here.

If one madhab says fard the other will say wajib or sunnah mu'aqadah, they will not call it makrooh or haram and so on.

Is it all part of the big test that Allah wanted all this to be this way ? What is the proof of that argument ?
So my dear friends help me understand all this. Jazzak Allah Hul Khair.

A good way to go in this day and age is to look for consensus amongst schools and scholars. Try not to go for the solitary voice only because it is the strictest or the most lenient. Look for the middle ground, and this should be the majority.

A simple answer to why pork was specifically mentioned whereas alcohol was not is one derived from a bit of pondering. Pigs are according to all physical descriptions like sheep and goats with cloven hooves. We know that cleft hoof animals are halal to consume. Not so the pig. It is an exception. However, the prohibition of alcohol is not bringing about an exception it is in fact setting the ground rules for a general prohibition of all intoxicants.

Furthermore it is a Mercy the people were being weaned off their habits. Alcohol related addictions do take time to go. Pork however was already not a custom menu item in that part of the world. The gradual elimination shows the nature of consideration of the physical restraints in people.

[Monk]

Re: Why some things are missing from Quran ?

What the fcuk.

I need to read this thread again.

[Mirch]

Re: Why some things are missing from Quran ?

@Monk

What the fcuk.

I need to read this thread again.

Do it chathee naal , I have to post my rebuttals now to all the responses so far.

[Monk]

Re: Why some things are missing from Quran ?

You know call me a kafir, munker what ever, but prophet could not order stoning of some one.

U know he said things about social issues which were divine words, things which can only be tested in metropolitan cities, which were not there at that time.

I mean I can't imagine prophet going for quick fix for a social issue, with a tool like "stoning to death"

[PrinceMS]

Re: Why some things are missing from Quran ?

Peace All

This is a connection that you have made between the hadith clarifying or contextualising the ayaat of the Qur'an and the nature of RasoolAllah. It is better to doubt ones own understanding of when a hadith seems to conflict with the Qur'an rather than draw for ourselves supposed conflictions to reconcile.

And essentially this will become blind faith. Current Jihaad / Talibaan / Suicide Bombings and innocent killing are side effects of exploitation of "doubts" and "blind faiths" (as well as other social and political aspects - of course).

I am sorry - your opinions doesn't set well with me.

May Allah give us all light of truth.

[USResident]

Re: Why some things are missing from Quran ?

More from me later …

[psyah]

Re: Why some things are missing from Quran ?

@PrinceMS

And essentially this will become blind faith. Current Jihaad / Talibaan / Suicide Bombings and innocent killing are side effects of exploitation of "doubts" and "blind faiths" (as well as other social and political aspects - of course).

I am sorry - your opinions doesn't set well with me.

May Allah give us all light of truth.

Peace PrinceMS

This will not become blind faith at all. For you have chosen one meaning over another in blind faith. The doubt in the case I mentioned is to resign the decision to people who are in positions of scholarly authority over us so they can provide to us the way it is supposed to be interpreted. This is not blind faith at all, because we select those scholars,

a) By reputation
b) By their characters
c) By their ties and acceptances from other scholars leading to consensus

My argument is simply not to assume that a contradiction exists just because we see there to be so based on English translations of both hadith and Qur'an. Rather there will always be a context and an explanation. And I mean always ... we just need to consult the scholars. What we ask today has for sure been asked before and the same clarification needed today has been sought before. We just need to research rather than jump to dismissing hadith the first chance we get, when we know that previous scholars have not dismissed them. We can choose emotional reasons for doing so, but these reasons have not been adopted by the masters of hadith classification.

Most often than not we assume there is a contradiction because we are actually comparing apples with pears, abrogations with new injunctions, specifics with generalitites, and so on.

[psyah]

Re: Why some things are missing from Quran ?

@Monk

You know call me a kafir, munker what ever, but prophet could not order stoning of some one.

U know he said things about social issues which were divine words, things which can only be tested in metropolitan cities, which were not there at that time.

I mean I can't imagine prophet going for quick fix for a social issue, with a tool like "stoning to death"

Peace Monk

This is lack of importance you are personally giving zina. The social issue of it are very dangerous to the fabric of society anyway, but other than this there is a need to be cleansed in this world to minimise the suffering in the Hereafter.

For sure Allah (SWT) is more kinder and loving to us than even our beloved master Muhammad (SAW), however the Fire that Allah (SWT) has prepared for some evil doers will burn them for an Eternity. Now are we going to use emotional arguments to deny that this will happen?

In other words ... If we can believe that Allah The Most Loving can burn people for an Eternity for their sins, why can't we believe that Muhammad (SAW) who loves a whole lot can't instruct stoning in order to minimise the punishment in the Hereafter, which is far more severe? Surely, this stoning acts as both a deterent for other sins and means to reduce or even wipe clean the penalty on the Day it really matters?

[Pataka]

Re: Why some things are missing from Quran ?

Before you go and assume things like these, you should really do some research from some LEGIT sources.

legitimate sources are not friends or family (unless their scholars).

If you have a question about ANYTHING, go and refer to the Qur'an or hadith first. Nothing else.

There is an "Index of Qur'anic Topics" that you can buy online. In it, it lists every single topic you can think of, up to business contracts and lists the Ayahs that pertain to them. It's great for research purposes and finding answers to your own questions. SubhanAllah, everything in the Qur'an is written so clearly.

Also, a good Hadith book to have at home for everyone is Riyadh-us-Saliheen. It's said that after the Qur'an, this is a book that every Muslim should have in their house for it has hadiths relating to almost every topic.

Please, Please, PLEASE refrain from using Shaykh Google as your souce. Please.

[Mirch]

Re: Why some things are missing from Quran ?

you pretend to be a patakha but you are a dud . If you can find answers to my questions please use all those resources you talked about and provide all those answers.

[Pataka]

Re: Why some things are missing from Quran ?

I'm a dud for not finding an answer to YOUR questions? Sorry but that's your job.

You are the one who questioned so you do your research until you are satisfied. Many people have given you some answers already but you seem to have overlooked them.

You can't find an answer unless you're looking for answer. Seems like your just lookin for debate?

btw, it's Pataka. not Patakha

[shardmanny]

Re: Why some things are missing from Quran ?

There are those who say and Prophet (SAW) used to receive open and secret revelations . How do we know which revelations were secret ?

is ilm i ghaib the word you are looking for here?

[USResident]

Re: Why some things are missing from Quran ?

Mirch bhai … I think the fundamental issue here is you are unable to justify from the Quran what is haram and what is halal. If you ask me, the problem you are having is very fundamental and rests upon your grasp of the most fundamental concepts of our faith. I believe I’ve said this before in some thread to some other person as well. We tend to read Quran and hadith with blinders.

I’ll give you a very basic thought, to me its more than enough to understand what is halal and haram when it has not been explicitly mentioned in words. Just stop and ponder on the word SIN.

What is the definition of a sin, basically its something we have been forbidden to do because it displeases Allah SWT and earns us bad deeds or it is written against us. Sin have varying degrees, some are lesser and some are severe. Quran clearly makes these distinction, some sins in Quran have adjectives attached to them as being KABIR. In our urdu language we use all the time the phrase Gunnah e Kabira, this term didn’t just sprout out of conversation but has implications in the Quran as I just mentioned.

So as I was saying, anything compared to a sin or one that contains a sin, is by definition a SIN. Sinning is allowed only by way of exception in the Quran, and those exceptions exist in the clear without any confusion around them. Like haram substances become halal in life threatening circumstances. Telling lies to reconcile marital relationships is also acceptable provided the outcome is intended to be good and enduring. Telling lies in war strategy is allowed since the survival of humans depends on it. If something is a sin and not allowed by way exception then its a sin at all times. Performing a sin is forbidden irrespective of who its affects or how it affects.

The quran unequivocally states, there is sin in intoxicants (alcohol). And it also uses the KABIR adjective for it in the Quran. So it classifies it as a GREAT SIN.

Now how do you think something the Quran equates with GREAT SIN cannot be forbidden?

[Mirch]

Re: Why some things are missing from Quran ?

No , I said what I mean to say.

[psyah]

Re: Why some things are missing from Quran ?

I am just trying to understand and come up with some argument to quite my naffs down.

My dear brother Mirch

I have read you post again and now I understand what it is you are asking. SubhanAllah all you want is a way to make your nafs quiet ... inshaAllah this can be achieved easily. Let's look at your post again:

Quran does not make somethings specifically haram e.g alcohol although blood , pig meat are specifically made haram. It is hadees which tells us that alcohol is haram. But then we read in Quran that prophet cannot make anything haram which is not made haram by Allah.

Although I still hold as true what I wrote before, but I believe there is another way to look at this. Let's use the argument of common sense. Let's say that if I was an alien from out of space and looked for which things cause problems, death and burdens to society. I could easily see that alcohol does this. I would not need anyone to tell me to avoid alcohol it would just makes sense that it is a very dangerous thing. However, if someone told me that pork is bad, I would have no way to see that it is true. Eating pork to my intelligence is just the same as eating any other meat. But then in that case I would need a special message to be sent to me - this would be my scripture. So in my scripture that thing that was not obvious to me was specifically told to me and that thing that is so obvious I would not need it to be told to me. Let's see if there is a pattern here.

Accepting interest is specifically made haram but paying interest is not made haram specifically. Now let's assume I don't take interest from someone because Al-Quran tells me it is haram, but because I see that it does not forbid giving interest, how would I now operate?

It is from hadees we find out that accepting and paying interest both are haram.

First of all it is obvious I cannot take interest from any Muslim or else I will be making him break the law according to the Qur'an. So the only person I can deal with would be a non-Muslim. Now I want a loan and he charges me interest, but if I go to a Muslim he gives me a loan without interest ... it would be very stupid of me to take the option that has interest. It is so obvious that interest is not helping the person who takes the loan one bit at all it is almost not even needed to be mentioned. It's like saying "You should not hit yourself with a hammer" it is so obvious that to say it becomes absurd. Who in their right mind will CHOOSE to take interest? Not the biggest supporter of interest will choose to give it, but will always choose to take it. Don't you think I am right?

Death by stoning for rapists and out of wedlock sex is not prescribed in Quran specifically.

It is from hadees that we find evidence for death by stoning for these crimes.

Okay, now let's look at the Qur'an again. It definitely states that fitnah/fassad is worse than murder and also states that if someone does a crime the equal should be done to him/her.
So if rape and sex out of wedlock is considered fitnah and fassad is this less or more than murder according to Qur'an? If we ignore this deduction and look at the concept of having sex outside marriage, what will happen to society if this is allowed to spread?
However more on this topic can be picked up later because there is some merit in the point here. There are a number of hadith that do clarify the position and some differences that stem from them. So basically we'll leave it here on this topic.

Same thing for prohibition for music and wearing of silk dress and gold for men. Quran says that Prophet(SAW) never spoke anything on his own . He only said what all willed him to say. This is what is used as an evidence for all of the above prohibitions and death by stoning. But I am sure this does not apply to many many things which prophet(SAW) said and did. Right ?

The concept of what Muhammad (SAW) said as part of prophecy/revelation or not is another issue let's park that for a while. Some scholars have argued that music rulings can be linked back to the Qur'an. Variety of forms of music have been developed through time with different lyrics and different instruments. The key issues that link to the Qur'an are "baseless or pointless" talk or banter and those that are associated with melody or rhythm that can sway emotional conditions and affect emotional dispositions. Again this should be looked in to in more detail. From the face of the argument it can be seen as quite obvious that those who indulged in musical activites in the early times were found wasting time and over indulging in worldly acts distracting people from worship. This became a point too obvious to mention since the 'good' society were not doing those things anyway.

There are those who say and Prophet (SAW) used to receive open and secret revelations . How do we know which revelations were secret ? The mere proof that books of hadees have those revelations is not enough as hadees are fallible , one sect will take one hadees as authentic the other sect will not. Is it all part of the big test that Allah wanted all this to be this way ? What is the proof of that argument ? So my dear friends help me understand all this. Jazzak Allah Hul Khair. P.S: Please avoid hate , finger pointing , generalizations , stereotyping and let us have a civilized discussion.

The rest can be picked up another time inshaAllah.