In response to NY Ahmadi’s post in the Politics forum - “Should Pakistan be a secular state.”
NY Ahmadi wrote: “[A bunch of bullshit, which I’ve snipped away.]”
You start off by discussing your regular visits to the seminaries and group discussions of what you see to be relatively progressive Christian “movements” that reflect “societal expectations and fine tune the value system according to the needs of the people they serve.” You are apparently well aware of the diversity of opinion within the Christian school of thought. You understand that there is not “one” sole Christianity, but rather a number of differing versions of Christianity. This is a good observation, unfortunately you fail to apply the same principle of understanding to your mis-informed and highly biased opinion of Islam
You believe, and quite casually write, “Islam is the most rigid of all monotheistic religions.” I say casually because those ignorant of others often in casual conversations express their feelings and attitudes without regard to others. They casually disclose their racist tendencies, their prejudices, and the generalizations with which they judge others. It is in this casualness that they are often confronted and asked to re-evaluate their opinions and rethink their positions. If we take Christianity and Judaism to be the other two monotheistic religions, judging the three side by side in terms of “rigidity” is near impossible. Impossible because all three are not monolithic. All three have differing schools of thought. All three have “fundamentalist conservative” movements and zealots. Here is a sample of Christian fundamentalism in the US:
Pat Robertson, republican presidential candidate stated that the Equal Rights Amendment (which would provide women with equal rights to men in the US) was part of an agenda that was “socialist, anti-family political movement that encouraged women to leave their husbands, kill their children, practice witchcraft, destroy capitalism and become lesbians.”
All three also have equally outspoken liberal moderates. And on the other end of the spectrum, all three have mystical components, which are the furthest away from “rigidity” one can get. Its also futile and a waste of time to judge religions in such a manner. I can’t see any benefit from such an analysis of ranking in terms of ones perception of “rigidity”.
NY Ahmadi wouldn’t use the terms “tolerant” or “accommodating” to describe Islam, he writes. You’d rather reserve these words for what? I assume the Christian denominations you mentioned earlier. Apparently the monolithic version of Islam, which occupies your limited understanding of religion, does not deserve the right to be judged on the merits of its teachings. Rather, you’d like to judge what you view to be a solidified, unchanging, and unalterable Islam on the basis of, what seems to be the practices and beliefs of a select set of Ulama (which ulama is still quite unclear from your post - it seems as though your understanding of Islam limits the domain of Islam to one set of Ulama, who interpret and set out the rules and regulations for all adherents of the faith). It would seem that this Ulama (you are criticizing, although not constructively, insulting is a better word) is the Sunna orthodox - however even if it is, the differences of opinion within this school are plentiful enough to discount your broad over-simplifications and generalizations.
Not surprisingly your reading of “Al-Maida” “confused” you. You could not reconcile certain concepts. You searched and found what you were looking for - discrepancies. You found them because you wanted to find them. Buddha once said that “when someone is seeking it happens quite easily that he only sees the thing he is seeking; that he is unable to find anything, unable to absorb anything, because he is only thinking of the thing he is seeking, because he has a goal, because he is obsessed with his goal…in striving towards your goal, you do not see many things that are under your nose.” It seems that you have failed to view the entire Qur’an, rather you’ve decided to selectively pluck out verses to fuel your passion and legitimize your stereotypical view of Islam. Perhaps you missed this verse in your selective reading of Al-Ma’idah:
“Those who believe (in the Qur’an), those who follow the Jewish (scriptures) and the Sabians and the Christians - And who believe in Allah and the Last Day and work righteousness - on them shall be no fear nor shall they grieve.” (5:69) (also see 2:62)
A similar verse will not be found in the works of your Christian friends. Because many Christians believe that the Christian God, condemns non-Christians to a fiery hell. The verse you were discussing (5:51) “Oh ye who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors…” is in relation to ‘hypocrites’. The verses previous to and right after this particular verse discusses the hypocrites amongst the Jews and Christians, those who reject the word of the Torah and Injeel (both of which are the word of God). Hypocrites are not to be trusted - do you trust hypocrites? I doubt it. The fact that you can marry a Christian or a Jew tells you what - that you can obviously trust them.
NY Ahmadi spewed: “Now can a Muslim tell a Jew that “I don’t trust you (because Quran tells me so) but I will dine with you (because I like Gafilta fish) and marry your daughter”. I think by saying that a Muslim will make a complete fool of himself.”
I think your the only one making the fool of yourself, by showing your ignorance. I find your mocking my religion and set of beliefs extremely offensive and it only reflects poorly on yourself. You further believe that the Qur’an advocates the death sentence for apostasy. Could you kindly present the verses you are referring to (so they can be refuted). Than you go on to briefly mention the intolerance of Islam when it comes to the subjects of “place of women, and sexual orientation.” Homosexuality and gender equality are two separate discussions and far too broad to discuss in this post. In Islam homosexuality is not permitted (as it is not permitted in Judeo-Christian teachings). The punishment for homosexual behavior is open to interpretation.
NY Ahmadi again disrespectfully blurted out: “I know people will say that I should be killed for thinking that, if they don’t then I am wrong. And also killing and destruction is the only solution Islam preaches to resolve differences.”
You put a death sentence on your own head, claim that Islam placed it there, than go on to insult the religion further. How ingenious you are. (Disgusting!)
NY Ahmadi continued to disgust his readers with these remarks: “I won’t go back to the desecration of idols (Gods to some) by Fattah pur Sikri in Southern India, and by Mohamd bin Qasim in the lower Indus Valley. I won’t talk about even more recent ones like St. Sophia and the Ottoman either, because you will tell me they were not Muslims. The rest of the world believes they were.”
And hey I won’t go back to the days of the Crusades, and the Inquisition (the real holocaust), or the slave trade, or the years of colonial oppression - all in the name of Christ. But I won’t go back there because I make a distinction between the historical actions of Christians and the religion of Christianity. The two differ, just as the religion of Islam differs from the actions of its adherents. Not everything in the world is black and white.
NY Ahmadi offends his reader once again with the following remarks: “I have been to Vatican and let me tell you that Michael Anglo’s work in Sistine Chapel beat Khana Kaba any day (in my opinion). Having said that, if you still think that I deserve respect for my views, you are fine person (Muslim or not).”
You just don’t get it do you? Its not a competition. The west has to see everything in relation to it. To the east is China, in the middle is the Middle East - everything in relation and in comparison with its “greatness”. It is unable to observe the greatness of others, or see the inherent value in what others hold dear, without having a competing interest. You don’t deserve any respect until your ready to respect others.
NY Ahmadi, sometimes your posts are so insulting and so disgusting - perhaps you do not notice. Perhaps you really have legitimate concerns but are unable to express yourself in a respectful and meaningful manner. You have the right to disgust me with your idiocy, but be assured that I will reply.
Achtung (disgusted!)
“Who is more evil than one who attributes lies to Allah or denies His revelations? Surely the transgressors will not succeed.” 6:121