Re: Why no serious effort to strenghten ties with Russia?
^^ And they are interested to promote these relations today as well.
Only our dumb policy makers are sleeping. We need to wake them up.
Do you really think, Ahmed Mukhta, Qasoori and our PM gillani is really think some thing good for Pakistan.. they even take permition for pee, from the president.. and president always looks that if the peeing is not goint to hurt the democratically elected govt... and ask US to support it and then let them go...
We need to build pressure groups, think tanks kind of things in Pakistan, secondly, we need to establish good business relationship ( in private sector) with Russians..
And you forget about ARABS? How Arabs treat Pakistani in Saudi Arabia, UAE, Oman and Qatar? How Arab countries always support India when it comes to Kashmir issue. Are Arabs better than Russian?
Yes they are much better.
DO you know that more than 80 people have been killed in last year on streets of Moscow by red necks and only 2 of the offenders received life sentence despite video evidence.
And as far treatment of ordinary people is concerned then americans treat Pakistanis much better than arabs and russians.
Yes they are much better.
And as far treatment of ordinary people is concerned then americans treat Pakistanis much better than arabs and russians.
Totally agree with you on this one. Arabs are the worst of all, the scum of all times. They act as thekedaars of Islam and all the muslims of the world. and when it comes to Muslims from poor countries in their own land, they treat them worse than slaves.
Yes they are much better.
DO you know that more than 80 people have been killed in last year on streets of Moscow by red necks and only 2 of the offenders received life sentence despite video evidence.
And as far treatment of ordinary people is concerned then americans treat Pakistanis much better than arabs and russians.
This is absolutely wrong to generalize. Having lived in Russia for almost a year and having first hand experience myself, I know what I am talking about.
Russia has its faults, there is no doubt. But compare to KKK in US, Neonazis in Germany or BNP in England, these red necks your are talking about, are nothing! It is just that they get more publicity. Just like a telephone threat by an Israeli to UN president would go almost unnoticed, but the same threat if "claimed" by a Muslim will grab the headlines worldwide.
And unfortunately to tell you the truth, the biggest mafia in Moscow until recently was run by Chechens, :(. These were the guys who would come to your house shake hands and next day send bandits to clean up your house. Sorry, but it is sadly true.
And besides, if we can be best buddies with UK, US and others (Iraq, Afghanistan, anyone?), why not with Russians? Checheniya is after all Russia's internal thing.
Compare to other western Europeans, I find Russians are very intelligent and open minded people.
PS. BTW, in whole Europe they have the highest number of graduates.
Re: Why no serious effort to strenghten ties with Russia?
pakistan should try for SCO. if it comes to a point where russia demands a set of reforms before our membership then those reforms should be implemented.
no country fights wars alone
the other option is to try to create an islamic bloc. pakistan needs bases in syria rightnow
I was just wondering at the lack of serious efforts from Pak govt. to strengthen relationships with Russia. I know a lot of Russians, in fact many are my good friends. Very nice people!
Geographically, Russia is also not very far from us and it needs new friends.
There is interest and desire on Russia's part to improve bilateral ties with Pakistan. So this question, why Pak govt. is not working on it?
You apparently have no interest in history, or in the interests of ruling oligarchy of Pakistan.
Re: Why no serious effort to strenghten ties with Russia?
Maybe because Russia has had strong ties with India . Also history plays a very big part in this. Soviets invaded Afghanistan if people remember and Pakistan was instrumental against them though not officially. Also i think it is quite ignorant to say Chechnya is an internal matter. The plight of the Chechen people should not be forgotten. Chechnya aside i think we can improve diplomatic relationships.
Re: Why no serious effort to strenghten ties with Russia?
^^ Well guess what, the Chechen guy whose father was Russia's top wanted person during the Chechen war, is now the president of Chechnya.
And Russia has invested Billions of Petro dollars in Chechnya to mend things, there is nothing called Chechnya insurgency anymore. This is all western media invented stories.
Russia and Chechnya have moved on, it is time that we also follow suit.
Relations with Russia?
Absolutely!
Good and close relations with Russia?
Not possible!
The reason is the makeup of both Russia and Pakistan. We are the two countries who are poles apart in terms of how we view the world economically and strategically.
**
Why Russia is anti-Pakistan on strategic basis.
**
The very existence of Pakistan stops Russians from reaching the warm waters of Indian ocean. Russia in the last 3 centuries have tried and failed to concur two routes to warm waters. One route goes through Turkey and the other route goes through Pakistan (or Indus valley if you want to be exact about pre-1947).
Fast forward to 21st century and you will see that Russia and China have actively stopped Pakistan's entry into Shenghai-5 working group. And the reason is both the strategic location of Pakistan and the economic benefit of Pakistan.
That brings us to the second point.
**
Why Russia is anti-Pakistan on economic basis.
**
Russian society and industry is not geared towards outsourcing in large amounts. In fact no developed country except USA has economic organization based outsourcing in HUGE $$ amount. That's why everyone from China, to S. Korea to Singapre to Taiwan drink the American milk.
Why do you think China dumped Russians and established the closest and most profitable relations with the USA?
If China could not benefit "economically" from Russians, then how can Pakistan get any significant benefits from Russians.
ZA Bhutto tried and tried to establish "mutually beneficial" economic ties but Russians gave him the boot. Sure we got steel mill but remember it was "designed" to use Indian ore. Is it the most efficient mill? no. Did it have the best technology? no.
ZA Bhutto tried to be an Islamist AND a socialist and in both fronts he ended up damaging Pakistani economy. Socialism is dead now at least the Russian and Chinese brand. Islamism will be gone too. That day hopefully Pakistani economy will start improving.
no country fights wars alone
the other option is to try to create an islamic bloc. pakistan needs bases in syria rightnow
Vroom, we are not a superpower whatever some daydreaming Toms may say. We need strong armed forces so that we can deter and destroy any foreign power which may foolishly try to attack us. We certainly don't need bases outside our country.
What do you thing will be the benefit of having bases in middle east. In case war breaks out between Israel and the Arabs, do you want our troops to fight for the arabs. Israel may be the biggest threat to world peace but let's face it, its not our war. The arabs have been repeatedly defeated by the Israelis mainly for 2 reasons:
- American support
- Arabs don't fight as one
When the arabs themselves cannot fight together agaist what is their common enemy, why do you think we should get involved by getting bases in that part of the world.
Ties with Russia should start with the economic ties and the middle east should not be included in the equation.
........Ties with Russia should start with the economic ties and the middle east should not be included in the equation.
You are right on Middle East.
Middle East should not be included in any equation unless we have troops deployed there and getting cheap oil from there.
Not so right on economic ties with Russia.
Economic ties means "import export" between Pakistan and Russia.
Russian cannot export anything to Pakistan. It cannot sell latest weapons to Pakistan for the fear of losing Indian market. It doesn't produce anything else that is cheaper and better than China, S. Korea, or Japan. So the exports from Russia are dud to begin with. The only thing Russia can do is to allow Pakistan to buy used Russian equipment from Ukraine or Kazakhstan. Is that what you mean by "ties" with Russia?
On the other side of the "tie" is the Russian imports from Pakistan.
Russians cannot import any services from Pakistan. Russians do not outsource their service sector (that is tiny to begin with). Are you talking about Pakistan based Russian call centers? or is that the Russians will start importing big $$ software from Pakistan?
Russians cannot import large amounts of agricultural or industrial from Pakistan either (in a dollar amount that even comes close to the UK and US imports from Pakistan).
So what economic ties are you talking about? May be some info is missing that you would like to share.
Russian cannot export anything to Pakistan. It cannot sell latest weapons to Pakistan for the fear of losing Indian market. It doesn't produce anything else that is cheaper and better than China, S. Korea, or Japan. So the exports from Russia are dud to begin with.
On the other side of the "tie" is the Russian imports from Pakistan.
Russians cannot import any services from Pakistan.
Pakistan can export clothing, isn't it supposed to be one area we excel at. And Russians do import textile products.
Importing from Russia, are you kidding. Russians have all the natural resources of the world with them. Right from oil to iron to whatever you can name.
Pakistan can export clothing, isn't it supposed to be one area we excel at. And Russians do import textile products.
Importing from Russia, are you kidding. Russians have all the natural resources of the world with them. Right from oil to iron to whatever you can name.
Pakistan's textile export to Russia is tiny compared to USA and UK. Profit margins are also very low in comparison. Moreover Indians have a lot more say in that due to Indians buying Russian weapons.
Importing oil from Russia? you must be kidding.
FYI. The easiest route for Pakistan was from Turkmenistan. And Russians and Arabs have totally blocked it off. So what are you talking about?
bro! Look at the realities and then assume something. We are not Allah that we can say Kun and Russians will start loving Pakistan.
Relations with Russia?
Absolutely!
Good and close relations with Russia?
Not possible!
The reason is the makeup of both Russia and Pakistan. We are the two countries who are poles apart in terms of how we view the world economically and strategically. ** Why Russia is anti-Pakistan on strategic basis. ** The very existence of Pakistan stops Russians from reaching the warm waters of Indian ocean. Russia in the last 3 centuries have tried and failed to concur two routes to warm waters. One route goes through Turkey and the other route goes through Pakistan (or Indus valley if you want to be exact about pre-1947).
Fast forward to 21st century and you will see that Russia and China have actively stopped Pakistan's entry into Shenghai-5 working group. And the reason is both the strategic location of Pakistan and the economic benefit of Pakistan.
What do you think about Iran-Russia relations? They were in a 'war' in WW II but post 1979 they have different relationship.
Like India has been able to earn the double bed (Russia and US).
...What do you think about Iran-Russia relations? ...
Iran has cash from Oil sales so Russia will be buddy buddy with them. Does Pakistan has cash? Noopsee. So comparing Iran-Russia relationship with Pak-Russia thingy is not logical.
Even when Iran has cash, its cooperation is limited in few sectors like power generation etc. Russia has not been able to help with Iranian oil refineries, or the Iranian military or airforce in a substantial way. This is because most of Iranian systems are American made. That's why you see Iran buying American stuff from the black market.
Other than Nukee business, Iran doesn't have much going with Russia. So Pakistan cannot interact with Russia like Iran.
You also talked about India. Indian people are saying "Ji Maiee Baap" to Americans 5 times a day to earn loads of cash. From Wipro to Azim Ji every one is doing Ji-Hazoori to USA and raking in $$ day and night. Obviously Russia wants some of that cash too and somehow maintain the old relationship.
Pakistani people are saying Ji Maee Baap to Piyaaray Piyaaray (covered in separate thread) Arab Jihadis and obviously we are running out of cash just like Piyaaray Piyaaray Arabs.
Pakistan as I said earlier, does not have cash. And Russians are the last country to contribute anything major for Pakistan to meet its shortfall in $$. Therefore some anti-West Pakistanis can certainly have softy softy dreams about Russians but that's all. They are just softy softy dreams.
p.s. Both China and India have dumped Russians in favor of pakka pakka dosti with USA. And Pakistanis think they are smarter than Chinese. hahahah.
Some really original quotes here…
Re: Why no serious effort to strenghten ties with Russia?
@Burqposx: sometimes I really wish that you do a little research before start posting on serious topics such as these. Some of our friends here have already tried (unsuccessfully) to explain you the situation and tell you what Russia exports and what bilateral trade potential it has.
As they say, there are no permanent friends and foes in international relations. Russians will befriend with anyone (just like USA would do to keep its influence) to counter American influence and gain strategic depth.
Going by your logic that Iran has money but Pakistan doesn't, tell me how much money North Korea and Cuba have to keep Russia as best friend?
Yes Russia will also sell weapons and other products to anyone who is ready to pay for it. A significant step in this matter which largely goes unnoticed is that JF-17 fighter plane uses Russian engine. Ever wondered why Russia allowed China to export it to Pakistan. Small, but significant !
Re: Why no serious effort to strenghten ties with Russia?
Don't bother having a discussion with Posh spice here. He actually doesn't post anything other than opinion which is usually not based on facts. Just his delusions.
These are your personal and subjective comments far from the truth. If you look at 70's, that was the period of socialist uprising. ZAB followed the trend. Economy was one zillions times better than what that stupid dictator Mush has left for Pakistan. Value of $ was Rs. 9.90, unemployment was much lower, no one was left hungry, essential goods and food was in every one's reach. People were more prosper and happy at that time.
Coming back to relations with Russia, the relations were excellent in ZAB's time. The biggest tormentor of that relation was general Zia-ul-Haq, when he created jehadis to fight with Russia in Afghanistan. All Paki dictators (pro Americans) never wanted a good relation with Russia, general Zia-ul-Haq, hammered the final nail in the coffin of relations between the two countries. It will never be normalized or come closer to the level of relations as they were in ZAB's era.