Why Musharraf Must Go

Re: Why Musharraf Must Go

US candidates want to ‘look after’ Islamabad’s nukes
WASHINGTON, Jan 6: Pakistan continues to figure prominently in US presidential debates with one candidate — Hillary Clinton — suggesting a joint American and British team to look after the country’s nuclear weapons while others threatening to send troops into the tribal areas to chase Al Qaeda militants.

“I would try to get (President Pervez) Musharraf to share the security responsibility of the nuclear weapons with a delegation from the United States and, perhaps, Great Britain, so that there is some fail-safe,” said Senator Hillary Clinton during a presidential debate in New Hampshire on Saturday evening.

On Sunday, leading Democrat Presidential hopefuls advocated pursuing Al Qaeda militants inside Pakistan, even without Islamabad’s permission, if the United States had “actionable intelligence.”

Senator Barack Obama, who won the Democratic caucus in Iowa last week, said that the United States should “do everything in our power to push and cooperate with the Pakistani government in taking on Al Qaeda.”

But if the Pakistanis “could not or would not do so, and we had actionable intelligence, then I would strike.”

Former Senator John Edwards, who came second in Iowa and is looking well placed in New Hampshire, said if as president he knew where terror mastermind Osama bin Laden was, “I would go get him, period.”

Clinton did strike a word of caution saying any actionable intelligence that would lead to a strike inside Pakistan’s territory must be given the “most careful consideration” and pointed to tension between India and Pakistan.

“When the missiles have been launched, the Pakistani government has to know they’re on the way. Because one of the problems is the inherent paranoia about India, so that we’ve got to have a plan to try to make sure we don’t ignite some kind of reaction,” the New York Democrat said.

Governor Bill Richardson, however, opposed sending troops into Pakistan. “The last thing we need in the Muslim world is another action like Iraq, which is going to inflame the Muslim world in a horrendous way.”

On the nuclear issue, Ms Clinton noted that at present Islamabad’s nuclear arsenal is considered secure, “but there isn’t any guarantee, especially given the political turmoil going on inside Pakistan.”

Mr Edwards appeared more paranoid than others on the nuclear issue as well. He described Pakistan as a country with an “unstable leader” and a “serious and violently radical element” that could, under some circumstances, take over the government.

“If they did, they would have control of a nuclear weapon. They could either use it, or they could turn it over to a terrorist organisation to be used against America or some of our allies,” he warned.

Senator Obama did not single out Pakistan on the nuclear issue. Instead, he pledged to rebuild a nuclear non-proliferation strategy, if elected. “It would not cost us that much, for example, and would take about four years for us to lock down the loose nuclear weapons that are still floating out there,” he said.

http://www.dawn.com/2008/01/07/top12.htm

Re: Why Musharraf Must Go

Spock, facts remains the same be it now or 2-3 years ago. If we keep Democracy or Dictatorship aside, we all know that it was sort of "state policy" to get missile in trade of nuclear weapon designs and it was a policy through out including the BB and NS govt.

Nuclear weapons are not "pani wali pistol" that 3rd grade terrorists can take control of these. You know it, I know it and Western Govts know it. Western media always start the propaganda with one issue or another against Pakistan to keep Govt under pressure.

World was more unsafe (and still is) from the weapons in Eastern Europe and Scientists from there rather than something from Pakistan.

and by the way, let the US elections pass by and things will become a bit more normalize. US politicians know how to get votes form people just like politicians in Pakistan know that GALIAAN to USA is most effective way to get votes

Re: Why Musharraf Must Go

Ok like you bring in NS and BB to justify Mushy's mistakes, now youre bringing the west, without realizing that I am not defending the west, but I am pointing out to you that the west now has a very substantial reason to worry. Musharraf has played the number 2 game with them. They arent happy with the way hes used the aid either. So far hes just interested in rounding up lawyers or media, trying to hang on to his kursi rather than curb terrorism, which is now pissing the west off. The democrats who have a strong chance of winning arent very happy with him either.

Re: Why Musharraf Must Go

^^ so you are saying Mushi played double game with them. I call it Nice strategy. Take their money and build your country.

God bless President Musharraf :jhanda:

Re: Why Musharraf Must Go

Well, Mush took their money and drove his country into the ground.. So he wasted all the funding Pak recieved. Basically, Mush is a con man who not only conned the world, but his own country… Thats enough to get him tried as a traitor.
:jhanda:

Re: Why Musharraf Must Go

Im starting to see the wisdom in Benazirs letter to the Americans asking to cut aide to Pak Army...

Cut these criminal generals of from their ill gotten wealth and they are suddenly cut down to size..

Soon enough, Mush will be cut down to the size the same way he was before 9/11...

Come to think of it, if it werent for Al Qaeda and Osama, Mush would still be the tin pot dictator in the worlds eye the way he was in 99! In a way, Osama actually created this booming economy!

Re: Why Musharraf Must Go

PP1 you win. With your continuous shouts about Musharraf, it is time for Musharraf to go. He is not going to get your vote anyway. How many votes do you have by the way?

For nationalist Pakistanis Musharraf is not important, stability is! And stability comes from a strong and cohesive military.

And I am sure you have already convinced most of the corps commanders so Musharraf will be gone soon.

Re: Why Musharraf Must Go

  1. our military is already strong and cohesive unless you can provide me proof otherwise.

  2. stability of a country is not directly related to strong military and its involvement in every fabric of the nation.

  3. stability comes when ordinary people trust their institutions and have faith in their elected leaders and politicians.

  4. many others factors are also at play for stability of a nation and none have to do with strong and cohesive military.

Re: Why Musharraf Must Go

I agree with 5abi, our military, apart from a few crooked generals is strong and cohesive. Most of the people in the armed forces, with the exception of certain rich generals, have served their nation very well. Musharraf only represents himself and a few other crooked generals, so getting rid of these na-paak generals will only make the army better.

Re: Why Musharraf Must Go

I win I win I win... Bhula bhula!
Musharaf doesnt need votes mera dost, dictators arent elected...:)
So my vote is irrelevant. I might not be so hard on the guy if he was still beholden to the voting power of the Pakistani people.

Stability comes from strong democratic institutions.. The military is only important in so far as defending the country against external threats goes, but not in stabalizing the country.
The Military actually creates instability, and is a huge liability...

And why should I try to convince the corps commanders... Ultimately, it will be the army against the people, and then they will have to decide for themselves if their loyalty is to their country or to a dictator.

Still, you and the other Mush supporters can rejoice, because for now, Mush the dictator is in power and only an act of god, like the one that saved us from Zia, can rid the country of him...:)

Re: Why Musharraf Must Go

  • The punjabi, pashtun and jihadi elements of the military are in deep turmoil. just like the pakistani public, their hearts tell them to support the "mujahideen" fighting kafirs. Just look at the number the of attacks carried out with conviniance of elements within.

  • The Balochs, Sindhis, Pashtuns are ready to call it quits from Pakistan due to 60 years of misrule of Punjabi-majority establishment.

  • Exactly, and the army and ISI cannot be trusted by others, just like Kurds can never trust Turkish army. and a so-called "democracy" controlled by the most populous province can also not be trusted. We need a new system.

  • Army is the only thing holding Pakistan together, otherwise Pakistan would cease to exist.

  • Conclusion: army needs to be cleaned up along with the punjabi establishment. One cannot happen without the other without disintegration of Pakistan. This is not meant as an insult to Punjabis or anyone else, but a statement of facts on the ground.

    Re: Why Musharraf Must Go

    That's all good and well, but without army control, Pakistan WILL disintegrate. If we all agree with it that, than that's fine. Let us go our separate ways, just don't blame Altaf for it. He will only be vindicated but it will not be a vindication of happiness.

    Re: Why Musharraf Must Go

    Fine, keep the army in barracks, when we need them we will ask for them.. In the mean time, have a genuinly elected governement supported by popular mandate.
    Why shold the country dissintegrate if we have a govt that represent the people?

    Its only when you have corrupt institution like the Army, and unelected dictators hoarding power that resentment increases...

    You yourself have said that the Army perpetuates the Punjabi control over he country, so now your defending them?

    Musharaf is the one in charge of this Army, and yet you support him?

    Re: Why Musharraf Must Go

    And when I say democracy, I mean genuine democracy with checks and balances... Not a free for all. We already have a free and independant Supreme Court, or we will once Mush is gone and CJ Iftikhar Chaudry is brought back...

    The new system you speak of can only come about if people like the Chief Justice are allowed to function as CJ, as they are the only people struggling for GENUINE democracy in Pakistan...

    Is Mush going to allow any of this?

    Re: Why Musharraf Must Go


    That would mean provincial autonomy and decline of establishment power from a certain province. No guesses as to who is the biggest blocking force for this. This issue has to be solved from within by Punjabis. The other options are far more bloody.

    Re: Why Musharraf Must Go


    The power rests with the entrenched establishment. His attempts have been met with resistance from lawyers, internal agencies, army, political parties etc. Why do you think there is such a concerted effort to discredit him? Being the head man of the army does not give him absolute powers, neither does being the President despite what some like us to think.

    Re: Why Musharraf Must Go

    Then Mush is a failure as a leader… The Lawyers! They dont represnt the entrenched etablishment! Lawyers represent civil society… The civil society never had any say in the establishment…
    They reperesnt the liberals, the ones trying to change the establichment. The Supreme Court is was trying to bring those within the establishment to justice… And Political parties like PPP have followings across the country, not just Punjab… And how are parties like ANA, Imran Khans party, the BLA part of the establishment?

    Mush has sponsored and promoted the establishment.. He put Army generals in top civilian posts, he is the one refused to allow land reforms, h e is the one going after anyone who challenges the established powers… Why do you thik he attacked the SC! Because it was against the establishment!

    The establishment is represented by Mullahs, the Army, and Land lords and big bussines.. All of these groups have benefited from Mush rule! MMA, PML Q, ARMY, and bussines which is the only one that benefited from mush economy!

    The reason he is despised is because he represents the establishment, he undermines democracy and civilian institutions!

    Honestly, do you even know who this “establishment” is? Or is it just paranoia?!?!

    I mean, how do the LAwyers represent the establishment when most that run the establishment are feudals?!?!?!

    And you say I dont know what im talking about:rolleyes:

    Re: Why Musharraf Must Go

    I agree, why hasnt Mush allowed it then? I dont know who these Punjabis are that your refering to , but im going to guess that Musharaf has done everything to look after their intrests...
    Some leader he turned out to be...

    Re: Why Musharraf Must Go

    Lets see now, who has ruled Pakistan since the last 8 years, and who has ruled Punjab in the last 8 years? Musharraf and the PML[Q] and they forced a very 'loving' alliance with the MQM. Its simple, if you pay the whiners a good amount of money, they'll quite yapping.

    Re: Why Musharraf Must Go

    Who has ruled Pakistan over the last 60 years? They have entrenched themselves in every institution and will fight to the teeth to protect their power and control. This not a new concept and has been repeated in history in many countries.

    And pakpatriot, don't act dumb. Every sindhi, mohajir, baloch, pashtun knows what this "establishment" is. But why rely on my opinions. Go out ask people from other ethnicities as well.