There is no need to be rude just to defend your Wahaabi masters who have been denounced by all the Sunnis of the world from Timbuktu to Indoensia.
As for the hadiths I quoted they are NOT fabricated. I will provide the references too. Anyway, here are a few article links you (and others) may want to read.
(It’s funny how every time a hadith goes against Wahaabi heretical teachings they say “mawdu! mawdu” or “daeef! daeef!”)
I think that will suffice for now to silence your arguments and of others-provided you actually are sincere enough to read them and are not just arguing for the sake of arguing.
I have posted this before in this topic and i will do it again!!!
No group actually calls itself Wahabis. However, people may call some of those
who express certain views as Wahabis, which is a name supposed to refer to the followers of Imam Muhammad ibn Abdulwahhab who was a great reformer and scholar. He lived in Najd
over 200 years ago and worked hard to eradicate all innovations from Islamic worship. Such innovations had crept into the practices of Muslim communities due to ignorance and long periods of decline undergone by Muslim communities. He maintained that the example of the
Prophet i.e. the Sunnah should be followed diligently. There is no disagreement among
scholars that this is required of every Muslim. It is unfortunate that some of the practices which Imam Muhammad ibn Abdulwahhab spoke very strongly against still persist in some Muslim communities. These include such terrible practices as visiting the graves of supposedly saintly people and asking the dead to intervene with Allah on behalf of the visitor for any purpose. Such a practice Islam shuns, since it is a manifestation of associating partners with Allah. Imam
Muhammad ibn Abdulwahhab belonged to the Sunni Muslims who, by virtue of their name,
should follow the Sunnah, or the example, set by Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) with
diligence. Hence, it is wrong to classify Muslims as Wahabis and Sunnis, since the followers of Imam Abdulwahhab belong to the Sunni group of Muslims. Those who insist on following the Sunnah of the Prophet
diligently should have the patience to teach their fellow Muslims, with respect and compassion, that some of their practices are unacceptable from the Muslim point of view. Had they done so, they would find better response by other Muslims.
Being a wahabi does NOT mean, you follow other books like most of the people in pakistan follow FIQA instead of bukhari or muslim. All of the so called wahhabis follow only and ONLY 2 things those are QURAN and HADITH(Bukhari and Muslim).
About those sites you have given i dont see any reference from, Bukhari or muslim, all that is there is wierd names of i dont know who or what!!!
About your hadith above i will make sure my self in books of hadith if its right or wrong!
One more thing you posted here ASIF:
"Assalatu wa assalamu alayka Ya Habib Allah"! Is this in books of hadith to say that or just you "think" its a good thing to do?
Jaawan
Till next time*K_I_S_S*
[This message has been edited by Jaawan (edited August 26, 1999).]
You obviously haven't read my links; and if you had ou WOULD have found references to many hadiths --btw, Mr. Wahaabi, there are six major hadith collections and over 100 collections which the ulama have used in making rulings not just Bukhari and Muslim. But is there any point in talking to someone who will not even READ and does not know the mere basics of islam. FIQH, mr. wahaabi, is not something made up rather it is the technical name in shar'iat for all laws to do with things to be done by the body i.e. actions eg namaz/roza everything we DO (as opposed to BELIEVE) is covered by FIQH. And from where have these rules been derived from? Qur'an Hadith Ijma and Qiyaas. And the people who did all the painstaking years of study of qur'an and hadith so ignoramuses like us could foloow our deen are the fuqaha-the classical scholars LIKE eg Imam Bukhari and Imam Abu Hanifa, who is the greatest of them all. If you haven't heard of these ulamah, it sohws your ignorance not that my references are not correct. Even oyur wahaabi masters even refer to these ulama..
please read before you argue. As for your stupid last comment, it is actually an order from Allah in the Qur'an in Surah Maidah:
"Verily, Allah and His angels send blessings on the Holy Prophet; O YOU WHO BELIEVE send salawaat [blessings] and salaam [greetings] upon him." (Qura'n)
So, it is something ordered by Allah and done by Muslims since the Sahaaba's time..but that order is for Sunni Muslims see, not wahaabi ignoramuses...
Particularly for ASIF read the damn thing again with eyes open!!!
No group actually calls itself Wahabis. However, people may call some of those
who express certain views as Wahabis, which is a name supposed to refer to the followers of Imam Muhammad ibn Abdulwahhab who was a great reformer and scholar. He lived in Najd
over 200 years ago and worked hard to eradicate all innovations from Islamic worship. Such innovations had crept into the practices of Muslim communities due to ignorance and long periods of decline undergone by Muslim communities. He maintained that the example of the
Prophet i.e. the Sunnah should be followed diligently. There is no disagreement among
scholars that this is required of every Muslim. It is unfortunate that some of the practices which Imam Muhammad ibn Abdulwahhab spoke very strongly against still persist in some Muslim communities. These include such terrible practices as visiting the graves of supposedly saintly people and asking the dead to intervene with Allah on behalf of the visitor for any purpose. Such a practice Islam shuns, since it is a manifestation of associating partners with Allah. Imam
Muhammad ibn Abdulwahhab belonged to the Sunni Muslims who, by virtue of their name,
should follow the Sunnah, or the example, set by Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) with
diligence. Hence, it is wrong to classify Muslims as Wahabis and Sunnis, since the followers of Imam Abdulwahhab belong to the Sunni group of Muslims. Those who insist on following the Sunnah of the Prophet
diligently should have the patience to teach their fellow Muslims, with respect and compassion, that some of their practices are unacceptable from the Muslim point of view. Had they done so, they would find better response by other Muslims.
Being a wahabi does NOT mean, you follow other books like most of the people in pakistan follow FIQA instead of bukhari or muslim. All of the so called wahhabis follow only and ONLY 2 things those are QURAN and HADITH(Bukhari and Muslim).
About those sites you have given i dont see any reference from, Bukhari or muslim, all that is there is wierd names of i dont know who or what!!!
About your hadith above i will make sure my self in books of hadith if its right or wrong!
your right i didnt read all of the sites but i did read some so..watch out! and reference i ll show you what referecnces they give.
To pay blessing to allah or mohammad there is Darood sharif not those made up ayats!!!
***I DONT call my self wahabi YOU call me wahabi so think before you say something, i dont think you do!!! You said in your recent post that somelike taking side of my MASTER...what master i dont have no master only master i have is ALLah and he your master also, and i follow on the ways of Mohammad and his suhaba. I am against any innovation in Islam. Anything created after the death of mohammad in islam is innovation and its a BIG SIN!!!
I have read FIQA and it is 80% different then books of hadith, so dont bring your hopes up, it aint worth it!!! FIQA is another topic i dont think i should or we should get into it now!!!
Jaawan
Till next time*K_I_S_S*
[This message has been edited by Jaawan (edited August 26, 1999).]
I have read FIQA and it is 80% different then books of hadith..
Please don't knock the fiqh since it was developed by great mujtahids such as imam Abu Hanifa, imam Shafie, imam Malik, and imam Ahmad bin Hambal in accordance with Quran and the sunnah. If these scholars didn't find anything in the Quran, they looked in the hadith. If it were not there, they looked in the actions of the sahaba or salaf (pious predecessors), and not finding there even they did ijtihaad/qiyaas. Now, I know that imam Abu Hanifa has said that even if you find a weak hadith that contradicts my ruling, adopt the hadith and reject my saying.
If you look in the madhab of imam Bukhari, you will notice that he was also a follower of shafie madhab. Imam Ibn-e-Taymiyyah, whom the modern salafis claim to follow was a mujtahid. Therefore, he had the authority to differ with the imams of fiqh on his own deductions of fiqh. However, not everyone can claim to be an expert in fiqh to develop there own rules. It is practically impossible for common people engaged in worldly affairs to learn all the details and books pertaining to the fiqh therefore we follow a mujtahid imam such as Abu Hanifa or Shafie etc. We put our trust in these imams to deduce the questions of fiqh from the four methods known by the mujtahids which I have already mentioned. It is an exaggeration to say that by following an imam we are not following Allah or His Rasool since these people are only interpreting the fiqh in the light of Quran and sunnah they are NOT making up things from there own minds. Jazakum Allah khair.
Just becoz Wahaabis don't CALL themselves Wahaabis it doesn't mean that their beliefs are all of a sudden correct; a label is a label--if a Jew calls himself a Muslim, will the Jew suddenly become a Muslim?
Yes, initially they called themselves Wahaabis--to show they were followers of Muhammad ibn Abd al Wahaab; then when immediately the Sunni ulama denounced their beliefs as heretical they realised after a while that for most Muslims Wahaabi has become identified with the wrong that it is; so now, they have changed their title to 'Salafis' to try and fool people that they are following the way of the Salaf us Saliheen [rahmatullah alayhi ajmain]. But the Truth is that in Islamic history there NEVER was a MADHAB called the Salafi Madhab, rather it is a title given to the early generations of Muslims. The beleifs of these 'salafis' are IDENTICAL to the heretical beleifs of the Wahaabis--becoz they ARE Wahaabis.
As for brother Iqadeer's point it is correct.
So, please stop talking about labels and read about the beliefs of Wahaabis and how they are DIFFERENT from mainstream Sunnis. (linked earlier in my posts).
Asif, I have tried all of the links, some of them were relate to salafis, but that was not the scope of my search, I was looking for the Hadith that you had mentioned in your earlier post.
In the link it was everywhere stated that it is good or desirable to visit Medina, but it never stated that the Hajj is not complete without it. I could also quote from the last link you stated
[quote]
Moreover, it is merely recommended for people to visit each other whereas there is a strong obligation to visit the grave of the Prophet. "Obligation" here means the
recommendation and encouragement to do that, not the obligation which is a legal duty. I think the best interpretation is that Malik forbade and disliked the practice
of connecting the word "grave" with the Prophet. He did not dislike the people saying: "We visited the Prophet, may Allah bless him and grant him peace." This is
because of the Prophet's statement, "O Allah, do not make my grave an idol to be worshipped after me. Allah was angry with people who took the graves of their
Prophets as mosques." So he [Malik] omitted the word "grave" in order to cut off the means and close the door to this wrong action. Allah knows best.
[/quote]
So you see my friend thats it.... I am not denying that one should not go to Medinah, it is a very imp. city with regards to Islamic History. The case is that once we are coming to Mecca for Pilgrimmage, we should not miss the greaat oppurtunity to visit Medinah too, and pray in the Masjid-e-Nabawi, just as we pray in other imp. mosques in other areas.
So I would wait for your references and complete Hadiths that you mentioned.
Also in the end, regarding Salam, yes Allah in the Quran has said that every mulsim should offer their Salam to the Prophet. But why do you say 'Ya Habib', in arabic 'Ya' is used for someone who is alive, are you saying that the Prophet is alive. Prophet was a normal human just like us, and he also died just like other humans......
If you think there is good in everybody, you haven't met everybody.
fact ppl. u can find this in good reliable islamic history books. abu jahl used to say that he knew that what the Prophet(SAWS) was saying was true and that he was the Prophet(SAWS) and abu jahl himself admitted in the very same incident that he said that he knew that the Prophet(SAWS) was indeed a prophet that the only reson he wouldnt accept the Prophet(SAWS) as a prophet was cuz of the Prophet(SAWS) was from a different clan.
so clearly the abu jahl had a problem, not with islam, but with the Prophet Muhammed(SAWS). so anybody who has a problem with the Prophet Muhammed(SAWS) is no different from abu jahl and there is a toilet where abu jahls house used to be.
Iqadeer as said i dont wana discuss FIQA in here!!!
Asif bhia just...tell me what does a typical sunni in pakistan does?
Going to Peeirs and having them pray to allah so they can have kids and happy life. Celebrating Mohammads birthday(eid milad-un-nabi) where did you or who told you to that? Then you guys do is Khatams or geearweens...which has and had no place in islam and never will. these are all innovations they are not in islam. You guys run on what your grandparents did and do not what Mohammad told us all to do. Off course you will agree with Qadeer because he presents your views not because he is right!!! There are alots of other things that SUnnis in pakistan do which were not and are not in islam. I dont do that i do what is in hadith and quran and what prophet has told us to do, i dont creat things in islam just becasue I THINK they are right or they sound right, i DONT do that, islam was completed at the time of Mohammad it does not need anything else.
i bear witness my allah that what im going to say is TRUE and i saw it with my own eyes!!!
In pakistan i saw people so called suni muslims doing sajada to graves and giving out foods on the name of the dead. is that what you do and say that its right, ITS NOT right!!!! its all shirak and shirak gets you in hell. then in pakistan there are groups hanfi and shafi..wahabi i dont call my self wahabi...just becasue someone represented my views doesnt mean i have to get his name on my forehead, you guys calls us wahabis cuz he didnt liked those things that you do all the biddaats and shirak...Hadith and quran and way of the mohamad and his subah is all i follow and so did Abdual wahab...Islam has all the things in it all you gota do is research it and dig it out...
I encourage everyone to do research on islam it helps you learn more and you see it your self if the things that some people tell us are really in islam. When you read it your self you will see where you stand in the case of Islam. Some people like to creat innovations in islam and they might lead others to do the same who does not know alot about islam. So its better to see things from your eyes then from someoe elses...
The Prophet Muhammad's(SAW) grave used to be plain dirt covered, until the time of Emperor Noorudin Zangi, when a couple of Europeans, who disguised as Muslims, made home in Medinah, and dug up an undergroung path to Muhammads(SAW) grave in order to steal his body. It was after that that Muhammads (SAW) grave was enclosed with molten lead from all four sides alongwith the other graves in the same enclosure....Abubakr, Umar, Ali(RA). Muhammad(SAW) told Noorudin Zangi about the infiltrators in his dream, and ever since, there has been tight security around the graves. As for jannatul baqeeh, all the graves are, and have always been unmarked. All the sahaba, except for Hazrat Hamza, are buried in there. Hazrat Hamza(RA) is buried at the foot of the Uhud mountain, where he died, because it is narrated that when his body was being moved to be buried in Jannatul Baqee, the mountain of Uhud was crying.
Bro, I did NOT say that Hajj is INCOMPLETE without doing ziyaarah of the blessed Rawda Sharif of Our Master {Sayyedna] Rasool Allah sal Allahu alayhi wa sallam’ rather that the Holy Prophet sal Allahu alayhi wa sallam said that may that person’s nose in the dust who comes for Hajj but does not visit my rawda. I will find you the hadith. The book I read the hadith in is called Saamaan-e-Akhirat; it is an Urdu book published in India. But I will get you the full original reference too–I just need time.
As for the point about Ya Habib; the Sunni aqeedah is that although Prophets do taste death, their death is NOT like the death of other people and that they are ALIVE in their blessed graves wherein they worship Allah, answer the salaams of devotees etc.; in fact they are no different in ‘death’ than in life. Hazrat Imam Malik said,
“Whoever says the the Prophet has become lessened by death, has entered into kufr.”
Think about it: Allah says in the Qur’an that do not say ‘dead’ for those who die in the path of Allah; what then is the status of Prophets woh are the best of creation; what then of the Chief of The Prophets? Subhan Allah! Remember, the Prophets are alive in their blessed graves, the earth cannot eat their bodies away. this is a hadith. again, please wait for reference. May Allah strike me dead if I EVER make up a hadith.
Also, Yaseen bhai, in namaz during the ‘al-tahiyyat’ you say:
…assalamu alayka AYYUHA NABIYYU wa rahmatullahi wa barakatu…
right? Now, in Arabic, Ayyuha Nabbiyu means EXACTLY the same as Ya Nabi.
This is the Sunni (not Salafi/Wahaabi) aqeedah.
As for Jawaan. You really need to stop ranting and read a good, beginner’s book on Islam. Try Belief and Islam on www.hizmetbooks.org You can download the whole book for free.
Please. For your OWN sake.
THEN come and argue…
Assalatu wa assalamu alayka Ya Nabi Allah!
Assalatu wa assalamu alayka Ya Habib Allah!
Assalatu wa assalamu alayka Ya Mahboob Allah!
Asif Asif Asif please tell me if you know what this means, or if you understand this:
"No group actually calls itself Wahabis. However, people may call some of those who express certain views as Wahabis..."
I know what is Islam, and i know what is in Hadith and quran, and i know what should i be following, you dont have to tell me, Think about your self concentrate on your self! But it my duty to tell you what is right in Islam according to hadith!
Now you tell me, things that so called 'Sunni' muslims do in pakistan are they according to hadith and sunah of Mohammad and according to quran or just made up?
Going to Peeirs and having them pray for you is not in hadith or quran, Giving out Geeyaarweens and khatam sharifs is not in hadith nor do we find any evidence that suhaba aur people after them did these bidaats. And that pharase you said at the end of your post where did you got that its not in hadith or quran that you have to say it befor aahdan or after that....there is not even mentioned once that if what ever you made up and its good will do you any good. Only thing that will do you any good is what is in Hadith and quran, anything else even if its good arabic is WRONG and people who promote things that are not in islam will go to HELL!
Please do provide some reference! You have to follow quran and hadith not what your grandfather did, that is state of ignorent if you follow something that is not in Islam and think that its .O.K. to do it!!
Jaawan
Till next time*K_I_S_S*
[This message has been edited by Jaawan (edited September 01, 1999).]
anything else even if its good arabic is WRONG and people
who promote things that are not in islam will go to HELL!
thanx for passing the judgement jawaan. if that be the case.... then Hazrat Umar (RAA) should be in hell (auzubillah). he introduced the line "As Salaatu Khairum Minan Naum" in the Fajr Azaan. it was never used during the time of the Prophet (SAWS). another thing he introduced was praying taraawih in jamaat which was never done during the time of the Prophet (SAWS). ppl used to pray taraawih on their own. Hazrat Umar(RAA) himself said that this is a bida'a but he said there is Khair (good) in it. i think the sahaabas (RAA) r the best ppl to know what islam allows and disallows.
just to point out something a lot of ppl dont know and that is that there r many kind of bida'a. some r waajib, mustahab and others if u do them then u dont remain a muslim.
Allah (SWT) has said (in present tense) in the quran that He and his angels send his blessings on the Prophet (SAWS) and then commands the ppl who believe to do the same.
an imam in saudi arabia (wahabi?) wrote in his book that if during namaaz the thought of goat sheep and other animals come to ur head then ur namaaz is fine but if the thought of the Prophet(SAWS) comes to ur mind then the namaaz is void. another "imam" who used to carry a stick around with him said that the stick gives him more benefit than the Prophet(SAWS). another "imam" in Saudi said that if we can not make our selves reach the status of the Prophet(SAWS) then we will bring his status down so that we can match it.
thats all that strikes me at the moment. so till later.....
Okay, those people whom have certain views which make people call them wahaabis--those people are WRONG; they are NOT following the Sunni path and are ignoramuses and heretics.
As for your other points; my dear, all these things ARE proven from Qur'an, hadith, ijma and qayaas and the pracise of the salaf-us-saaliheen. Just becoz WahAabi heretics don't do them, doesn't mean they are wrong. Also, bid'at has many categories including bid'a-e-hasana. eg having the Qur'an in book form is a bidat hasna; having zer and zabar on quran is bidat, none of these things were in our Beloved Prophet's time [sal Allahu alayhi wa sallam] so why do even Wahaabis do them?!
Also, at least you admit that what SUNNIS do is different from WAhaabis [those who follow/agree with the heretical teachings of Mohd. Ibn Abdul Wahaab al Najdi]
So, friend, YOU need to have a more deeper understanding of our deen---please read the recommended book.
Here is the reference for the hadith I quoted in my first post:
**
Muhaddith Ibn 'Adi narrates in al-Kaamil from HADrat Umar ibn al Khattab radhi Allah anhu that Our Master, The Holy Prophet sal Allahu alayhi wa sallam said: He who does Hajj and does NOT visit me [my rawda] has commited tyranny [zulm] against me. (Bahaar-e-Shariat, volume 2).
**
YOu keep on repeating your self on one hadith! tell me from hadith and quran if, giving geeyaarweens and khatams, and going to peeirs for help is RIGHT to do in ISLAM.
WHat is Suni path asif creating new things in islam and telling others that its right, thats not islams or sunni path thats kufer, people who do things like those are MUNAFIKS! Off course you will not agree with me, NOT because im wrong, i am right but because i dont represent your Munaafikana views, like creating bedaats and doing shirks in islam ans saying that its ok do them! My friend you might THINK your doing something right, but if its not in REAL islam(quran and Hadith) and it was NOT done by prophet or his campanions you are on a wrong path with your eyes closed!
Concentrate on your own self, you dont even know if your right or wrong and you telling me that im wrong, thats stupidness, fix your self first with REAL islam NOT with bedaats and shirkana things, because people who creat bedaats and do things that are NOT in islam will go in hell and allah's 'gazib' will destroy them!
***give some reference from QURAN and HADITH that geeyaarweens and khatams, and peeirs are things that were done by prophet Mohammad and his campanions after his death?