Re: Why India Became a Democracy and Pakistan Did not
^^ contact sulabh for that.they r the people concerned for providing toilets in delhi and other cities.and if u want they can teach u their business too.u can replicate their success in providing cheap toilets in ur area.
I'm not so sure If one will do the job for +10000, who work part time in factories and create some rumours about child labour. I'm sure India's economy is booming while +10.000 don't even have the time and place to sh(a)it.
Re: Why India Became a Democracy and Pakistan Did not
^^ contact sulabh for that.they r the people concerned for providing toilets in delhi and other cities.and if u want they can teach u their business too.u can replicate their success in providing cheap toilets in ur area.
Sulabh charges 1rs for each use where as side of railway tracks, river side, canal side its free:D
Re: Why India Became a Democracy and Pakistan Did not
Kashmir, Kashmir and Kashmir - this obsession has been the cause of all the ills in Pakistan.
In the 50's Pak alligned with USA to get weapons to fight India to get Kashmir militarily- and in return agreed to became a tool to fight Russia. Lost its sovergniety (sp).
In the 60's the Army wanted more power military & political and started taking over Pakistans governance to be better able to fight India.
The Pak Army/Government started woeing China - because an enemy of an enemy was a friend, Again the main cause was Kashmir for Pak - weapons & veto power support from China . For China - they used Pak to keep India subdued.
The obsession with getting Kashmir - has moulded Pakistans direction right from creation. This obsession has lead to all the blunders including Kargil, Jihad culture etc and losing itself to the army rule, losing its soveriegnity, losing its sense of direction, everything !!
That is why Pakistan is not a democracy. Not too sure why India took that path, perhaps the founding leaders had this vision & had the ability to 'stay the course'.
Re: Why India Became a Democracy and Pakistan Did not
Sulabh charges 1rs for each use where as side of railway tracks, river side, canal side its free:D
do u still save that one rupee by using Galveston beach or rhe sides of railway tracks in watonga or sugarland.(never mind was just a joke).
If people of educated category cant spwnet 1 rupee then i think the problem is not with lack of toilets but its a kind of malice in indians that they use open spaces for excertions.Try to excrete and spit on the side walks of in houston and then then let me know how mant dollars ticket u get.if being indian u can behave well in a foreign lan d then why cant you do the same in india.wat makes u to treat ur own country as trash.if u can put the trash out for collections on weekly basis in USA then why cant u throw the trash in the trash box in india instead of throwing where ever u wish.
sir if democracy provides u the rights then with those rights u should ve sense of responsibilty too.
Re: Why India Became a Democracy and Pakistan Did not
First create some toilets in slums of New Delhi before making IT boom in your country propagate all around the world.
Sarcasm deserves sarcastic answers.So was my first response to u.
I'm not so sure If one will do the job for +10000, who work part time in factories and create some rumours about child labour. I'm sure India's economy is booming while +10.000 don't even have the time and place to sh(a)it.
u seems to come to a conclusion here so it deserves a detailed response.here u r mixing up development with social upliftment and social engineering and sure u cant leave one for the sake of other.We know today were we stand and problems we r facing.But again I suppose you r more obsessed with India shining election campaign slogan of some political party then people of India or even the party workers itself.when the same party was thrown out of govt. by defying its India shining slogan (which was unfortunately fro the west but used in wrong context) by none other than the people of this country(power of Demo-crazy on display).
For any development project any government will need money in its coffers.And then at the height of economic crunch when even Indian gold was mortgaged to ward off from defaulting on payment something had to be done.So the IT boom happned and social engineering and upliftment took some back step.IT boom was the necessity of that time.And regarding child workers yes the problem exists in everywhere in India right from big cities of Mumbai to deeper beedi and fire works factories of tamilnadu and Jharkhand.Its kinda malice and to correct this all sure gonna take its time.its not something like u got a blackboard in class and u can just wipe it clean.It took USA till 1960 to desegregate colored people.it took china to 30 years(keeping in mind that they opened up there economy in late 1970) to reach where it is and for us economic boom is just recent phenomenon of just 16 yrs old.unless we r economically stable we cant uplift our masses And there r other challenges of corruption etc which r main roadblocks and yes will overcome it.
Its not just the question of providing clean toilets or abolishing child labour.its about providing basic minimum needs of potable water food and education to the huge section of above 1 billion masses and which is no way a easy job which can be done overnight.
If we r proud of our economic development then there is nothing wrong in feeling ashamed of our backwardness. So both economic development and social upliftment has to go together and one cant be left for other.like u said instead of doing IT booms we just concentrate on providing toilets.Sorry sir,but we don’t have single dimensional thinking as urs.We think in 3 dimension of economic development social development and ofcourse good governance.watevr u call it but we know where we stand today in the wold compared to India of 1950,1960,1970,1980,1990.we live in India and work for it.we go out and work for it.we just don’t sit in sin city and point at the others instead we change our society.
PS:BTW sulabh revolution happened after economic boom.Lakkis225 just know that sulabh charges Re1 for using toilets in Hyderabad(I think he is hyderabadi),but the fact he don’t know that sulabh is also involved with providing cheap toilets or rather free ones in villages too.i don’t live in Houston just to shoot off my mouth I live in India and I know wats going on here.
Re: Why India Became a Democracy and Pakistan Did not
Far be it from me to respond to someone who can neither spell "Crazy" nor "Gandhi," leave alone spelling "mulims" (sic) with the lower case "m" and "Deobandhis" (sic also). But then, I do need some humor in my life - when a clown presents himself on a thread, I cannot resist the urge to laugh.
At the very least, we learned to spell better than today's youth, if you are an example of today's Indians. Personally, I am convinced that you're full of it.
I'll just give you a clue. There are 2 unintentional and two intentional spelling amongst the 4 you point out. I think you haven't quite caught up on secrets of your own period.
Considering that I lived through the times ... "From Indus Valley to Indira Gandhi" like every other school and university student at the time. And we had to memorize the "Twenty Point Programme"... which screamed down at us from every hoarding that the eye could see in the cities and small towns across India.
Wrong again. I was in school then too and we never had to memorize the 20 point program. Nor where we shown that movie though the name is nice and I would probably want to view it. You are letting your imagination get the better of you and mixing up tales of communist China and India.
It has been said of the Fascists that the leaders were manipulative crooks while the followers were mentally challenged to use a polite term. I can see that that is as true of India as it was of Italy...
I'll go one step further and say all politicians are to some extent manipulative, many are crooks too. Doesn't make them all fascists.
My request to you:
There is a lot of good things happening out there. We are finally breaking out of the shackles of slavery. You guys have seen a lot more than we have. I more than many fully understand the reasons many from your period have a right to feel cynical. But we need your support. I promise you, if you give it a open mind you will enjoy the ride.
Jai Hind
Re: Why India Became a Democracy and Pakistan Did not
@ajtr...I really like your saner and patience response (as if our pakistani bro's are going to tell themselves "aahh..ajtr explained very well and what he said is correct and There are some saner indians..hehe). . You know there is one more problem from indians side - some indians who were pretty lucky to be born in reasonably well off families and got a good education, and finally who made a career in the booming economy, starts thinking that india is rocking. They end up becoming egoistic. And a very of few of them, come to these kind of forums and start shooting about the "success" of their country(not that non indians are very innocents in this regard), that ego looks very ugly(sometimes even to their own people). May be if that shouting is stopped and all humans become very level headed and keep their feet on their ground, everything will be fine!.
Coming back to topic, Indian democracy didn't remove feudalism. It wasn't even removed by Nehru. The thing is Indian politics was influenced by socialism. It is inherently against feudalism and does a lot for education. These were the focus areas of it. But economic growth very rarely crossed 4% before 1990's. It has even made negative growths in between and our earlier generations kept electing them again and again also. But indias financial situation worsened to bankruptcy due to these commie/socialist policies followed for many years. But since then economic policies have changed and have been growing. Only thing is, in india even communists are voted to power or rejected from power.
P.S:Nehru is a shrewd cunning man. He ensured that his family would continue to dominate indian politics by giving a surname "gandhi" to his children. Congress party has created a very holy picture of their leaders in many peoples mind as they were in power for a long time. They have even made nehru's birthday Nov 14th as children's day. (Actually most people give a rat's ass about it).
Re: Why India Became a Democracy and Pakistan Did not
Very well said Mr. Singh.
BTW feudalims is a favorite whipping boy of the socialists, here in Pakistan as well.
The reality is that two groups held large tracts of land in British India:
Princely states's citizens generally didn't vote in the elections of Delhi governments. However Feudal lords had a large number of people under their influence and these people could vote.
So in a way feudal lords had a lot less control over their villages compared to the princes.,
Feudal lords were not allowed to keep militias and armies, but princely states did.
Congress of India quickly became the main lobbying party for the Industrialist class dominated by Hindus (with sprinkling of Muslims and Parsis).
And Industrialists wanted some halla gullah to force British government on lowering taxes, and thus giving bigger market share (the crux of swadeshi movement).
Feudal lords dominated by Muslims never had that issue with the British, so they charted their own way in British Indian politics. They formed many parties to lobby land owners' interests. But the problem was that there were practically no non-Muslim landowner who owned 1000+ acres. Sikhs owned small farms like many middle or lower class Muslim landowners. But there were no mega farmers. In the whole of Punjab, there was just one Hindu mega-farmer named Sir Chotoo Raam. And Sir Raam always sided with his Muslim Mega farmer colleagues instead of supporting Congress of India.
*Since Congress was funded by Mega industrialists, it never used the socialism weapon against large factories. *
**
Congress never talked about limiting the level of wealth for Industrialists and Businessmen. **
**
However the same Congress used socialism against Mega farmers by asking to limit (or snatch) the wealth by taking away their lands.
**
That precisely created the fault lines in British Indian politics and ultimately divided the country.
Where Hindu Industrialists and businessmen ended up running Congress party
While Muslim Mega farmers used Muslim League for their lobbying. Believe me the politics would not have taken religious tones if there were many Hindu and Sikh Mega farmers. British India could still have been changed to separate country but religious halla gullah would have been lot less.
In that way Gandhi Ji and Nehru were Socialist lobbyists,
while Jinnah was the free-market (in today's lingo) supporter.
Didn't mean to take away the thread in a different direction. This is just a bit of history beyond the 5th grade history books usually taught both in India and Pakistan.
Anyways thanks for a good analysis on Indian history.
Peace
@ajtr...I really like your saner and patience response (as if our pakistani bro's are going to tell themselves "aahh..ajtr explained very well and what he said is correct and There are some saner indians..hehe). . You know there is one more problem from indians side - some indians who were pretty lucky to be born in reasonably well off families and got a good education, and finally who made a career in the booming economy, starts thinking that india is rocking. They end up becoming egoistic. And a very of few of them, come to these kind of forums and start shooting about the "success" of their country(not that non indians are very innocents in this regard), that ego looks very ugly(sometimes even to their own people). May be if that shouting is stopped and all humans become very level headed and keep their feet on their ground, everything will be fine!.
Coming back to topic, Indian democracy didn't remove feudalism. It wasn't even removed by Nehru. The thing is Indian politics was influenced by socialism. It is inherently against feudalism and does a lot for education. These were the focus areas of it. But economic growth very rarely crossed 4% before 1990's. It has even made negative growths in between and our earlier generations kept electing them again and again also. But indias financial situation worsened to bankruptcy due to these commie/socialist policies followed for many years. But since then economic policies have changed and have been growing. Only thing is, in india even communists are voted to power or rejected from power.
P.S:Nehru is a shrewd cunning man. He ensured that his family would continue to dominate indian politics by giving a surname "gandhi" to his children. Congress party has created a very holy picture of their leaders in many peoples mind as they were in power for a long time. They have even made nehru's birthday Nov 14th as children's day. (Actually most people give a rat's ass about it).
Re: Why India Became a Democracy and Pakistan Did not
@ajtr...I really like your saner and patience response (as if our pakistani bro's are going to tell themselves "aahh..ajtr explained very well and what he said is correct and There are some saner indians..hehe). . You know there is one more problem from Indians side - some indians who were pretty lucky to be born in reasonably well off families and got a good education, and finally who made a career in the booming economy, starts thinking that india is rocking. They end up becoming egoistic. And a very of few of them, come to these kind of forums and start shooting about the "success" of their country(not that non indians are very innocents in this regard), that ego looks very ugly(sometimes even to their own people). May be if that shouting is stopped and all humans become very level headed and keep their feet on their ground, everything will be fine!.
I really don’t concur.I see myself and my family and the other friends of mine of kendriya vidyalaya as the success story of India.and 90 percentile of students were from lower middle class income group or may be worse.Hardly 10 out of 1000 students were from Army officer family(According to u the well off family) rest were the lower ranks.The only difference is that success stories u see in India r actually lower income group families whose parents themselves being matriculate fail recognize the importance of education in their children’s life.
And majority of professionals of before 1990 were from same lower income group.untill Indian govt. relaxed the rules in education and allowed pvt. Professional colleges during PVNR’s rule in 1992.And most of the students in these colleges were from affluent families. (coz they were able to buy off seats by paying lacs of rupees in donations.).
Its not about ego sire its about realizing ur potential.and I bet for once that something u call ego can be found only in the students who came from lower income group families not the affluent families.coz ilk of such student rose from ashes.And it’s the affluent family student who stay back in foreign countries (opportunism at its best) and it’s the other category of student like Dr.kalam who come back(u call it being egoist and I call it being patriotic or realizing ones potential)
Coming back to topic, Indian democracy didn't remove feudalism. It wasn't even removed by Nehru. The thing is Indian politics was influenced by socialism. It is inherently against feudalism and does a lot for education. These were the focus areas of it. But economic growth very rarely crossed 4% before 1990's. It has even made negative growths in between and our earlier generations kept electing them again and again also. But indias financial situation worsened to bankruptcy due to these commie/socialist policies followed for many years. But since then economic policies have changed and have been growing. Only thing is, in india even communists are voted to power or rejected from power.
P.S:Nehru is a shrewd cunning man. He ensured that his family would continue to dominate indian politics by giving a surname "gandhi" to his children. Congress party has created a very holy picture of their leaders in many peoples mind as they were in power for a long time. They have even made nehru's birthday Nov 14th as children's day. (Actually most people give a rat's ass about it).
its not only about Nehru-gandhi family only every political class is shrewed.but only 0.0001% has some vision.
PS:let me know how many times u have used ur right to adult franchise in India.
Re: Why India Became a Democracy and Pakistan Did not
Kashmir, Kashmir and Kashmir - this obsession has been the cause of all the ills in Pakistan.
Nope, I disagree. Kashmir was only a tool used by military to stay in job, just like US military always needed an enemy to demand more and more money.
[quote]
In the 50's Pak alligned with USA to get weapons to fight India to get Kashmir militarily- and in return agreed to became a tool to fight Russia. Lost its sovergniety (sp).
[/quote]
I am not aware of Pakistan agreeing to fight Russia in 50s, loss of soverignty has nothing to do with agreeing to fight someone's war. UK, Japan and many other countries are fighting American war in Iraq and Afghanistan, have they lost their sovereignty? No.
[quote]
In the 60's the Army wanted more power military & political and started taking over Pakistans governance to be better able to fight India.
[/quote]
Keywords highlighted, the begin of decline/loss of civil governance.
[quote]
The obsession with getting Kashmir - has moulded Pakistans direction right from creation. This obsession has lead to all the blunders including Kargil, Jihad culture etc and losing itself to the army rule, losing its soveriegnity, losing its sense of direction, everything !!
[/quote]
Again, all these military adventures do not necessarily destroy form of governance. Losing "sovereignty" to whom here?
[quote]
That is why Pakistan is not a democracy.
[/quote Sorry but your post didn't really address directly why democracy couldn't prosper. Apparently army always wanted to grab Kashmir and painted India as the villain/enemy but that can always be done even in "democratic" form of governance.
[quote]
Not too sure why India took that path, perhaps the founding leaders had this vision & had the ability to 'stay the course'.
[/quote]
I don't think India always wanted to be "democratic", India took that turn very late probably around when Russia collapsed until then India was all socialist, but since there were no "fuedal" powers in India to hind in the process so it was very easy for India to get there.
Re: Why India Became a Democracy and Pakistan Did not
Sarcasm deserves sarcastic answers.So was my first response to u.
Hey! I was serious. That's your where patriotism comes in play. Everything that hurts Indians bad, becomes a joke or sarcasm. But well take it as sarcasm. We know how much this can hurt too.
[quote]
Its not just the question of providing clean toilets or abolishing child labour.its about providing basic minimum needs of potable water food and education to the huge section of above 1 billion masses and which is no way a easy job which can be done overnight.
[/quote]
You are absolutely right, It's about fighting poverty. Narrowing the gaps between rich, middle class and poor til very poor. Vanishing Cast system. Getting rid off Muslims in Gujraat and splitting society into multi Religion(something has to replace the Cast system) sectors. Ask an average Sikh (who has some common sense and yes there are a lot) what they think of Hindus. Bad weeds grow tall.
[quote]
If we r proud of our economic development then there is nothing wrong in feeling ashamed of our backwardness.
[/quote]
Your pride is doing the job here. I feel ashamed of having people sleeping in my back yard, without having had a proper meal for days. Don't you?! I feel ashamed of seeing people sleep on streets. Don't you? Then I feel ashamed of you, although you are an Indian.
[quote]
Sorry sir,but we don’t have single dimensional thinking as urs.We think in 3 dimension of economic development social development and ofcourse good governance.watevr u call it but we know where we stand today in the wold compared to India of 1950,1960,1970,1980,1990.we live in India and work for it.we go out and work for it.we just don’t sit in sin city and point at the others instead we change our society.
[/quote]
There is no 3 dimensional thinking. It's all about money and fame. This is all you guys care and then you make these decisions of letting people like Modi, Lalu Saheb and others be part of your government.
[quote]
i don’t live in Houston just to shoot off my mouth I live in India and I know wats going on here.
[/quote]
Maybe some ppl are more aware of some facts living abroad then those who live in India. Think about it.
Re: Why India Became a Democracy and Pakistan Did not
I would disagree here brother, no doubt that army has been the most efficient institution in Pakistan and byand large consisted of soldiers that have been read to lay their lives for the country. However beleiving that army was feared by the world is bit naive. We have never even been able to sustain a war beyond 14 days!
Well, It is true. They have this reputitation of the tough and sincer guys. They are well trained and provide countries like Saudia, UAE. China even USA some Know-How transfer. Are respresentative in all "dangerous" mission assignments of UNO. You can trust my sources ;)
So maybe Indians can integrate themselves better into foreign Countries, but Pak's pride lies in Pak's Army and ISI.
Re: Why India Became a Democracy and Pakistan Did not
Captain sahib: There is a joke in India, regarding this obsession with Kashmir - During an Indo-pak meeting, one of the Indian delegates asked for a glass of water " not before you give us Kashmir" replied the Pak host.
Thanks for your opinion, but I am sure that my contention that "the Pakistani obsession with kashmir" has moulded Pakistan to what it has become today.
Re: Why India Became a Democracy and Pakistan Did not
Thanks for your opinion, but I am sure that my contention that "the Pakistani obsession with kashmir" has moulded Pakistan to what it has become today.
You are entitled to your opinion, but Pakistan's governance problem are far more deep-rooted than mere Kashmir.
Re: Why India Became a Democracy and Pakistan Did not
MODs I’m sorry for derailing this thread for just one post of mine but I need to counter this wrong notion.
Hey! I was serious. That's your where patriotism comes in play. Everything that hurts Indians bad, becomes a joke or sarcasm. But well take it as sarcasm. We know how much this can hurt too. Your pride is doing the job here.
we can agree to disagree with each other on this point.Nah my patriotism and pride don’t hurt me.might be the case with u.coz I know where to run checks and balances in emotion.and u conveniently mix up theses two word s just to forward ur agenda(coz I ve seen only u manipulating the pride word according to ur convenience in the whole thread,noone else used it except for Mr.Faisal king that to except once and im using pride word only in this post only to refute ur claims.i’ll suggest u to run through the word check on the webpage to verify my claims,as I’m practical person not a emotional orgasmic person as u seems to pose).
There is a gulf of difference in patriotism and pride(check dictionary if u don’t know .Well my pride never fails me coz I know for wat I ve to be be proud of and and for wat I shouldnot for im not a blind follower of anything in this world and I use my brains to analyze everything.Im patriotic for all gud and bad things of India im proud of all the gud things in India(hope you have got the difference between pride and patriotism).but I’m not proud of bad things in India and I know where we lack and wat we have to overcome in India.thats why my patriotism and pride never fails me.So ur notion of anything that is wrong/bad with India is sarcasm is totally misfounded .as nobody has claim this over here except u and only u.And if you r unable to comprehend and understand the essence of my posts then pm me I’ll be the happy to help u out. For our replies can put this thread in the danger of being trashed(and I’ll be the last person to who want this).
For sake of u let me make myself clear here,why I treated ur 1st reply as being sarcastic,(as I can see u were unable to understand it may be due to that u didn’t read the previous discussion between me and Mr.AntiOBL and u just thought it nice to vomit ur lack of knowledge about ongoing discussion in ur post # 79 on my post #75, which infact was the extension of my post#72.).If u read all my replies then u’ll sure come to know about my POV of vouching for economic development along with social development.but then ur blind ego just makes u vomit ur venom of providing toilets before doing IT revolution where as I’m vouching for both thing simultaneously side by side.so was my reply to u.ITS CALLED BALANCING THE TWO THINGS TOGETHER.
Your pride is doing the job here. I feel ashamed of having people sleeping in my back yard, without having had a proper meal for days. Don't you?! I feel ashamed of seeing people sleep on streets. Don't you? Then I feel ashamed of you, although you are an Indian.
It’s good that u feel ashamed of hungry destitute people on streets and in ur backyard. By this u make my conviction true that there r good people like u in this world.
And yes I don’t feel ashamed of hungry people in my country I don’t feel ashamed of showing the world the ugly face of India coz I know by feeling ashamed of them I cant do anything good to them.I wont be able to feed them unless im on my own feet.if I earn today atleast I can feed 3-4 hungry people along with my own family members.and if I just feel ashamed then I run the danger of adding these 3-4 people plus my 5 family members to the tally of hungry people on the street. I balance my professional life with social volunteering. I just don’t sit at home and feel ashamed. for me practicality of life matters not the emotional orgasmic behaviour.Today If im feeding 3-4 ppl with my present earning tomorrow I can feed say 10 if I earn more.I don’t feel ashamed in showing the world the reality coz I know I need help to overcome this hunger in my country.And only those people feel ashamed who fear of losing something there is nothing to lose for us that’s why we concentrate on our positive energies.if we follow ur logic of stopping IT revolution and just concentrate on social development then today they say we’ve 700 million on roads hungry then tomorrow we run danger of having 1billion on streets.so we concentrate on both sides of coin not just.coz we know one eliminates other and vice versa.
If u feel ashamed of me then keep doing that coz it doesn’t matter to me and let me concentrate on my positive energies to wipe out negative in my country.
You are absolutely right, It's about fighting poverty. Narrowing the gaps between rich, middle class and poor til very poor. Vanishing Cast system. Getting rid off Muslims in Gujraat and splitting society into multi Religion(something has to replace the Cast system) sectors. Ask an average Sikh (who has some common sense and yes there are a lot) what they think of Hindus. Bad weeds grow tall.
Sheer generalization regarding India.India has a civilaztion of 5000 years.many came and they liked it and settled here they became part of India.there were good and there were bad experiences.There were huns,greeks,shakas,cholas(cholas were tamil rulers),Turks,mughals,perssians,Mongols,afghanis,british.they all became part of India.and this diversity multiculturism ,multi religion is the strongest point of Indian society. And if u ve such a diversity there tends to be some ripples in the ocean but its not tsunami as u point out it to be.i do not to base my verdict on the opinion of one sikh or muslim or hindu or Buddhist about the whole society or some other religious community.If I do make such opinion then it reveals my narrow minded ness as u r doing right now.If I make my opinion based on the bad acts of Bin laden and his misguided youth brigade regarding the regarding the whole muslim community(the followers of religion of peace) or the about sikh community for the acts of some khalistanis or hindu community for the acts of hindutva brigade(as u r making right here) then im not intellectually developed and im run the danger of being influenced by bad people.
There is no 3 dimensional thinking. It's all about money and fame. This is all you guys care and then you make these decisions of letting people like Modi, Lalu Saheb and others be part of your government.
Space is multi dimensional( even Quran says this).if u want I can provide u literature on this multi dimensional thinking in this space. Old Testament and Vedas and geeta too speaks about it.i based my argument on human intellectual understanding of present day 3-dimensions so I raise this bar to multi dimension thinking. Well then in a democracy u can’t discard majority opinion that’s why people keep on choosing lalus and modi.and these people fight elections on local issues not on national ones.so in order to understand what magic wand these people ve that they r still in power u need to go to their constituencies. As far as I know lalu is still hero in bihar for the brave front he put up against indira Gandhi during the days of emergency as student leader under jai prakash narayan’s leadership.Thats other thing that his 20 years misrule of bihar totally broken it .But then his stint as railway minister in present govt has made the railways a profit making public sector unit which it never was till he became railway minister in 2004 .he really turned around railways the largest employer in India with in 3 yrs.Modi’s second rule has done economic wonders for Gujarat and im sure he gona get his 3rd term in next month election too. so u simply cant discard the local majority in local elections.And this is wat democracy is all about.
Maybe some ppl are more aware of some facts living abroad then those who live in India. Think about it.
U r wrong here again.people who live in the particular area or circumstances knows better than those living 1000 of miles away.Only that person knows about hunger who lives among hungry people or works among them not the one who lives in some whitehouse or grey house or at downing street by just reading a paper report.suffering of a Iraqi can be told better by a person who is living in iraq not by Mr.bush.Ground realities of a war can be told by a infantry solider fighting at the front not by the general sitting in the COAS Headquarters.So its for u to think about not me coz im pretty sure about my ground realities.
PS: if u try to understand it with cool head then ull get my points. and if u keep on blinded by ur hatered and ego of particular community or nationality then don’t expect any more replies from me coz 1st I hate derailing threads and I dislike banging my head on rock.And refrain from personal attacks.
Re: Why India Became a Democracy and Pakistan Did not
No ,sh i tting outside is crime in usa buddy, don’t do that :nono: why to go Galveston when many Bayou’s are comfortable and very near to desi areas 
and Houston is not neat and much worse then any indian city, thats reason we have more desi population here
do you know how well those sulabh complexs are maintained, you will get diseases for sure if you go there,
i don’t know how it look inside, but from ouside itself its worst, for a common man paying 1 rs is nothing but to cure the diseses you get it costly
tell me how many of billion population knows about democracy, how many of them really vote in elections, much of the vote turnover they show includes bogus votes (which play major part in one getting elected),even i did a bogus vote in Assembly elections in Khairatabad constituency, but even then he lost the election for first time in his life thats another reason, do the normal really getting any chance, the next leader will be always son or relative of previous leader
Re: Why India Became a Democracy and Pakistan Did not
So after all these impassioned speecheS and flagellations, do we know why India has and Pakistan does not have democracy?
My summary reading all this is:
Because Indians like it and Pakistanis don't like it
Indians know their country is poor and dirty but still proud of it. Pakistanis don't know and are not? (That's a shock)
India has democracy because people like Lalu and Modi ensure democracy by killing people or running trains. I am not quite certain how Pakistan is different in this area since lot of people are killed there too but it is done the modern way, using fighter jets, not dirty trains.
It costs 1 rup in houston or India but somehow houston is clean and India is not. In Pakistan you don't get diseases if you use houston toilets.
Very lucid. Thanks desis. Fantastic.
Re: Why India Became a Democracy and Pakistan Did not
Jokes aside!
There are many reasons why Indians are different from Pakistanis (some serious, some funny, and some really hilarious reasons).
However if you want to pick just ONE reason! It is:
Indian politicians have not been able to create anarchy in India that is big enough to cover a major portion of the country. Most of the troubles are linked to less than 2% of Indian area / population.
India is a vast+contiguous land mass almost 10 times bigger than that of Pakistan. So far the anarchy in India is limited to smaller portions of the country. And that's why the central government (dhoom-cracy or not) is not impacted to the point that a Marshal Law has to be imposed.
Having said that, Indira did impose emergency when the central government was threatened. India was lucky that the emergency rule was able to stabilize Indira's kursi. However the military rule was just around the corner had the anarchy gone out of control.
Pakistan too can handle smaller anarchies within civilian power. For example BB was able to use full governmental force (extra-judicial powers) to destroy MQM related anarchy in Karachi.
This was done the same way as India handles anarachies such as Kashmir, Punjab, Nagas etc.
So after all these impassioned speecheS and flagellations, do we know why India has and Pakistan does not have democracy?
My summary reading all this is:
Because Indians like it and Pakistanis don't like it
Indians know their country is poor and dirty but still proud of it. Pakistanis don't know and are not? (That's a shock)
India has democracy because people like Lalu and Modi ensure democracy by killing people or running trains. I am not quite certain how Pakistan is different in this area since lot of people are killed there too but it is done the modern way, using fighter jets, not dirty trains.
It costs 1 rup in houston or India but somehow houston is clean and India is not. In Pakistan you don't get diseases if you use houston toilets.
Very lucid. Thanks desis. Fantastic.
Re: Why India Became a Democracy and Pakistan Did not
MODs I’m sorry for derailing this thread for just one post of mine but I need to counter this wrong notion.
It's all my pleasure. I see no off topic here. We are talking on why India has become what Is now and democracy is one of these major achievements. I missed this thread for a week or so let us continue...
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we can agree to disagree with each other on this point.Nah my patriotism and pride don’t hurt me.might be the case with u.coz I know where to run checks and balances in emotion.and u conveniently mix up theses two word s just to forward ur agenda(coz I ve seen only u manipulating the pride word according to ur convenience in the whole thread,noone else used it except for Mr.Faisal king that to except once and im using pride word only in this post only to refute ur claims.i’ll suggest u to run through the word check on the webpage to verify my claims,as I’m practical person not a emotional orgasmic person as u seems to pose).
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There is no need to become personal. Nor did I ever blame you for getting emotional.Tolerating arguments of yours with weak links in the end is an effort worth. I have my opinion and you have yours. We are here to discuss and not to agree on each others opinion, without projecting the real story.
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There is a gulf of difference in patriotism and pride(check dictionary if u don’t know .Well my pride never fails me coz I know for wat I ve to be be proud of and and for wat I shouldnot for im not a blind follower of anything in this world and I use my brains to analyze everything.Im patriotic for all gud and bad things of India im proud of all the gud things in India(hope you have got the difference between pride and patriotism).but I’m not proud of bad things in India and I know where we lack and wat we have to overcome in India.thats why my patriotism and pride never fails me.So ur notion of anything that is wrong/bad with India is sarcasm is totally misfounded .as nobody has claim this over here except u and only u.And if you r unable to comprehend and understand the essence of my posts then pm me I’ll be the happy to help u out. For our replies can put this thread in the danger of being trashed(and I’ll be the last person to who want this).
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Who said patriotism can’t be part of pride and vice versa? Maybe my message was a bit inexplicit. Don’t worry, no one is trashing the thread as long as you could cut the crap and start here with the topic.
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For sake of u let me make myself clear here,why treated ur 1st reply as being sarcastic,(as I can see u were unable to understand it may be due to that u didn’t read the previous discussion between me and Mr.AntiOBL and u just thought it nice to vomit ur lack of knowledge about ongoing discussion in ur post # 79 on my post #75, which infact was the extension of my post#72.).If u read all my replies then u’ll sure come to know about my POV of vouching for economic development along with social development.but then ur blind ego just makes u vomit ur venom of providing toilets before doing IT revolution where as I’m vouching for both thing simultaneously side by side.so was my reply to u.ITS CALLED BALANCING THE TWO THINGS TOGETHER.
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I’m sorry that I had to butt in previously, but at times I really enjoy doing so when some one states things I can’t agree on.
I think people need to understand that there some facts, which are not published black on white. I can’t provide you links on what I have stated in „sarcasm“, but actually I was quite serious on that. If you keep telling the world that both occurences, the heavy economy boom and making more rooms for people to sleep and take care of their dookie, can be achieved simultaneously. Then you'll find the hard rock within me. I have to disagree here totally. It’s pretty simliar to what UAE is trying to achieve these day. Selling mud and oil at the same time, while neglecting the ex-pats rights and deporting many of them for no valid reason. This comparison is very valid, although you’ll see no sense in this comparison either. I know you by now J
Even America tried hard to fight poverty and yet they are in worse conditions ever.
India will be no exception. See, you can pull two or three families out of the lower cast and drop them into higher cast (which is a sin in India), but you cannot insist on every one copying your good intention and start believing you alleviate one of many miseries of this nation. You can dream of It, but reality is pretty the opposite.
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It’s good that u feel ashamed of hungry destitute people on streets and in ur backyard. By this u make my conviction true that there r good people like u in this world.
And yes I don’t feel ashamed of hungry people in my country I don’t feel ashamed of showing the world the ugly face of India coz I know by feeling ashamed of them I cant do anything good to them.I wont be able to feed them unless im on my own feet.if I earn today atleast I can feed 3-4 hungry people along with my own family members.and if I just feel ashamed then I run the danger of adding these 3-4 people plus my 5 family members to the tally of hungry people on the street. I balance my professional life with social volunteering. I just don’t sit at home and feel ashamed. for me practicality of life matters not the emotional orgasmic behaviour.Today If im feeding 3-4 ppl with my present earning tomorrow I can feed say 10 if I earn more.I don’t feel ashamed in showing the world the reality coz I know I need help to overcome this hunger in my country.And only those people feel ashamed who fear of losing something there is nothing to lose for us that’s why we concentrate on our positive energies.if we follow ur logic of stopping IT revolution and just concentrate on social development then today they say we’ve 700 million on roads hungry then tomorrow we run danger of having 1billion on streets.so we concentrate on both sides of coin not just.coz we know one eliminates other and vice versa.
If u feel ashamed of me then keep doing that coz it doesn’t matter to me and let me concentrate on my positive energies to wipe out negative in my country.
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Ajr, I’m not against you and your country. I’m against those, who are ignoring some facts and figurs. Especially Indians tend to do so. And I know what I’m talkin about, when having 80% Indians as friends and 20% Pakistanis. Maybe you are one of few, who understand problems facing every day. But many don’t, especially not NRI’s.
They see Bollywood as India their Country and Paris as It’s capital. Believe me!
When I say I am ashamed, then I mean it litterally. Meaning so I do something to help those to avoid being ashamed of. My family is doing already enough, trust me. I don’t have to proof that I’m just another idiot sitting abroad and just complaining about how worse has Paks and Indias situation become regarind those poor souls on streets. This is not the case.
So the very reason was to make you understand , there are Indians believing something, which is nothing more than main stream Indian movie. That's all what botheres them.
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Sheer generalization regarding India.India has a civilaztion of 5000 years.many came and they liked it and settled here they became part of India.there were good and there were bad experiences.There were huns,greeks,shakas,cholas(cholas were tamil rulers),Turks,mughals,perssians,Mongols,afghanis,british.they all became part of India.and this diversity multiculturism ,multi religion is the strongest point of Indian society. And if u ve such a diversity there tends to be some ripples in the ocean but its not tsunami as u point out it to be.i do not to base my verdict on the opinion of one sikh or muslim or hindu or Buddhist about the whole society or some other religious community.If I do make such opinion then it reveals my narrow minded ness as u r doing right now.If I make my opinion based on the bad acts of Bin laden and his misguided youth brigade regarding the regarding the whole muslim community(the followers of religion of peace) or the about sikh community for the acts of some khalistanis or hindu community for the acts of hindutva brigade(as u r making right here) then im not intellectually developed and im run the danger of being influenced by bad people.
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You absolutely right here. It is not the tsunami, but hey who had knowlegde about Tsunami some years ago? It all happened so fast and all of a sudden we had 10.000 deaths to complain. Am I wrong?!
It’s a time bomb, sir. Sooner or later Indian Society will be no more Indian. It’s not about one person or two, I’m talkin of millions of Indians. Or is there any denial on the radical Hindus Parties role over Indian politics? Where celebrities like Amitabh have to fear and had to erase Muslim names from his guest list at his son’s wedding? Oh come on, It’s not far fetched. They are all linked together.
Bin Laden might be a misguided person and has lost influence on many intellectual Muslims, but a hindutva and vjp i spart of your government, sir! Accept it!
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Space is multi dimensional( even Quran says this).if u want I can provide u literature on this multi dimensional thinking in this space. Old Testament and Vedas and geeta too speaks about it.i based my argument on human intellectual understanding of present day 3-dimensions so I raise this bar to multi dimension thinking. Well then in a democracy u can’t discard majority opinion that’s why people keep on choosing lalus and modi.and these people fight elections on local issues not on national ones.so in order to understand what magic wand these people ve that they r still in power u need to go to their constituencies. As far as I know lalu is still hero in bihar for the brave front he put up against indira Gandhi during the days of emergency as student leader under jai prakash narayan’s leadership.Thats other thing that his 20 years misrule of bihar totally broken it .But then his stint as railway minister in present govt has made the railways a profit making public sector unit which it never was till he became railway minister in 2004 .he really turned around railways the largest employer in India with in 3 yrs.Modi’s second rule has done economic wonders for Gujarat and im sure he gona get his 3rd term in next month election too. so u simply cant discard the local majority in local elections.And this is wat democracy is all about.
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See, thats exactly why I’m arguing on. As long as leaders make huge impact on the Indian Economy, It’s all fine. He can be the he most racist and has had 10 murders to claim, no Indian would dare to point fingers at him. You just justified the killings of many Muslims, ordered by Modi and Co by positive appraisal of his local wonders regarding economy. Pathetic and yet I’m stunned.
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U r wrong here again.people who live in the particular area or circumstances knows better than those living 1000 of miles away.Only that person knows about hunger who lives among hungry people or works among them not the one who lives in some whitehouse or grey house or at downing street by just reading a paper report.suffering of a Iraqi can be told better by a person who is living in iraq not by Mr.bush.Ground realities of a war can be told by a infantry solider fighting at the front not by the general sitting in the COAS Headquarters.So its for u to think about not me coz im pretty sure about my ground realities.
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Maybe your point is that you can understand their feelings better, than those who live abroad and have only news papers to read to draw a picture of their struggle. Correct me, If I'm wrong.
I agree on that partially. People who have lived with those who suffered and struggled (or even been part of it) and are now settled abroad, know best regarding these matters.
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PS: if u try to understand it with cool head then ull get my points. and if u keep on blinded by ur hatered and ego of particular community or nationality then don’t expect any more replies from me coz 1st I hate derailing threads and I dislike banging my head on rock.And refrain from personal attacks.
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[FONT=Times New Roman]
[FONT=Times New Roman]Don’t worry I’m cool as ice. You haven’t seen me on fire yet. Don’t wish to.
I’m actually more the liberal one. But banging any ones genitals will make him/her scream. Same goes for you.
Re: Why India Became a Democracy and Pakistan Did not
So after all these impassioned speecheS and flagellations, do we know why India has and Pakistan does not have democracy?
My summary reading all this is:
Because Indians like it and Pakistanis don't like it
Indians know their country is poor and dirty but still proud of it. Pakistanis don't know and are not? (That's a shock)
India has democracy because people like Lalu and Modi ensure democracy by killing people or running trains. I am not quite certain how Pakistan is different in this area since lot of people are killed there too but it is done the modern way, using fighter jets, not dirty trains.
It costs 1 rup in houston or India but somehow houston is clean and India is not. In Pakistan you don't get diseases if you use houston toilets.
Very lucid. Thanks desis. Fantastic.
Most of the Indian Cities are much much cleaner then Houston, you can campare Hyderabad for example