Why India Became a Democracy and Pakistan Did not

[Iconoclast]

Re: Why India Became a Democracy and Pakistan Did not

The main difference in India and Pakistan: India took away feudal power from feudal lords and Pakistan did not, call it socialism or whatever but that resulted in good foundation of politics in India while Pakistan's "politics" remained in hands of feudal lords while govt remained in "military" hand for most part of the history while there was no military govt in India. In essense, socialism became the basis of success for India's current democracy.

I agree with Captain1. India became democracy because they got rid of feudal lords in 1950 wheras, Pakistan is still being ruled by the third generation of 20 odd feudal families and needless to say they are as incompetent as their forefathers were and they are the main reason for army to step into the politics. Aur Iconoclast bahi saab yeh 4 anay wali ghatiya theory apnay paas hi rekhain aur kuch history perh kar ayein iss say phelay aap humain sabq dain kay congress kitni democratic thee. Did you know what congress did to Muslims when it was elected in 1935 in British India and what they have been doing with the miniorities in india since 1947??

I do not question for a second that Congress was biased against Muslims, hence Quad-e-Azam was disgruntled and left Congress. The creation of Pakistan was the best thing to happen, atleast for Muslims of the area that now constitute Pakistan despite all its pitfalls.

However, the question is why Pakistan did not develop democracy, when the very principle that led to its creation was democracy.

I agree that death of Quaed-e-Azam soon after creation of Pakistan was a big factor. But was he THE ONLY person who could keep us on track, if Yes, then we have to accept that Muslim league in itslef was not much of leadership without Jinnah.

[Khehkeshan]

Re: Why India Became a Democracy and Pakistan Did not

India has Bollywood to keep masses occupied. We have Lollywood with it's fat heroines to keep masses agitated.

[BirdFlu]

Re: Why India Became a Democracy and Pakistan Did not

The very basic difference between India & Pakistan is formers Army has never ever in past interfered with its Govt.

Indian Army is like a "Tamed" Dog

[anjjan]

Re: Why India Became a Democracy and Pakistan Did not

@BirdFlu

The very basic difference between India & Pakistan is formers Army has never ever in past interfered with its Govt.

Indian Army is like a "Tamed" Dog

As per your terms and conditions many countries' armies fall into your catagory of 'tamed dogs'. Nice!

and how do you characterize your army? may be without any tail at all. and whom your army is biting day and night?

[Captain1]

Re: Why India Became a Democracy and Pakistan Did not

As per your terms and conditions many countries' armies fall into your catagory of 'tamed dogs'. Nice!

and how do you characterize your army? may be without any tail at all. and whom your army is biting day and night?

Don't get your pants wet, he is not calling your army a "dog". What he means is that Indian army is in control of civilian government while our army thinks they own the country.

[Captain1]

Re: Why India Became a Democracy and Pakistan Did not

Throughout the history Muslims were ruled by kings and military rule and they have yet to evolve their own democratic system.

And India had democracy in 1250AD? or 2000 BC?

[lakkis25]

Re: Why India Became a Democracy and Pakistan Did not

This is yet another example of cockeyed analysis.

For sane and valid comparative analysis, you always have as large of an example set as possible.

India is as unique as is Pakistan, or Afghanistan, or Iran, or China, or Burma, or Indonesia. BTW all of these countries are in the same general neighborhood.

If you want to beat Pakistan on the head, sure you would compare to someone who is doing a little better.

Countries follow their destinies on much more complex process ...

So please keep this ...analysis to yourself.

...then do analysis on the following topics before dumping crap on Pakistan.

1. Why Iran is a basket case even when they have oil
2. Why Islamic jannat of Afghanistan gets raped by every Tom, Dick, Harry, and even Ranjit.
3. Why China is doing 100 times better economically than a comparably sized **dhoom-cratic **India.
4. Why BDesh is being ruled by their army even when your ilk wants to prove using Bible, Quran, and Gita that Bengalis are more dhoom-cratic.

Off course you won't do that analysis. With eyes-wide-shut, it is much easy for anarchists to blame everything on Pakistan.

===================== In memory of our slain soldiers and officers, Long live Pakistan army and law-enforcement agencies,

Pakistan Paindabaad.

only a ignorant or people who don't like india says China doing 100 times better then india and thus it make your post invalid, mods delete this :)

[lakkis25]

Re: Why India Became a Democracy and Pakistan Did not

actually india might be a democracy but for most of its history, it has been controlled by members of nehru dynasty. and given a choice between being ruled by pak army or by the nehru family or even bjp which is the main opposition, i would choose pak army any time. in fact the current govt of india has actually copied pak army by appointing mms as pm. mms like shaukat aziz has no political base of his own and was drafted to politics in early 90's to salvage india's economy which was in a mess due to mis-mangement by nehru dynasty.

also pak is not unusal when you look at the third party in burray sagheer namely bangledesh which was created by committed socialist like mujib. yet bangladesh has relied on uts army for governance like pak has and in fact bangladesh has also copied pak army by appointing technocrats to power.

pak army must be doing something right for others to copy its strategy.

well said :biggthumb, thats true
there is a democracy and so always railway minister from Bihar and revenue minister from Tamilnadu and all rails goto bihar and all funds goto Tamilnadu
Whatever either its a Democracy,army rule, common man life don't change, a rickshaw puller earns same money whether its democratic rule or a army rule, only diff is that guy misses alcohol and some money which politicians give during elections every 5 yrs

[lakkis25]

Re: Why India Became a Democracy and Pakistan Did not

You are not alone in saying "You all look brown, so why you have different names" type racial and stereotypical analysis. Writers like Tom Friedman commit the same blunder.

The same Tom Friedman doesn't go to Europe and say "You all look white, so why you have so many different systems of government".

Systems of government evolve over time, and they are driven by complex set of historical and cultural factors.

Anyone with some basic knowledge knows that British-India was a collection of many many states with unique culture, and history.

Still one could lump them together in four distinct regions.

1. The central northern region of British India,
2. The central Southern region of British India
3. Eastern border regions
4. Western border regions.

Region #1, #2 , and #3 (minus E. Bengal) were combined and they gave birth to modern day India Region #3 and 4 were combined and they gave birth to the then Pakistan.

Fast forward 30 odd years and Regions #3 and #4 went their separate ways and now they are BDesh, and Pakistan respectively.

Each of these regions have further divisions and thus differing trends towards democracy.

And those trends are driven by very complex set of drivers that include the level of industrialization, agriculture, religion, the level of nationalism, the role of military, the history of schools, and above all the degree of submissiveness to the authority.

But the biggest factor driving the trends is the relative size and strength of army.

Had Indian army not played its strong role against Nizam, Junagadh and later militant movements in Kashmir, Punjab, Assam, Andhra etc., Indian state would have gone into an emergency state the same way as Pakistan has.

Just remember why Indira had to clamp emergency. And believe me it was just one state out of 25+ that almost brought down the whole dhoom-cracy drama.

Pakistan being 1/10 of India had to face off much larger amount of internal and external anarchist factors.

These factors may or may not have anything to do with 4 ana membership, or someone wearing dhoti vs. 3 piece Western clothes.

So the people who love dhoti, should move to India, and leave the followers of 3 piece Western clothes in Pakistan. Thank you.

buddy army attacked Nizam and not Andhra, now Nizam+andhra is one state which is called Andhra pradesh

[antiobl]

Re: Why India Became a Democracy and Pakistan Did not

buddy army attacked Nizam and not Andhra, now Nizam+andhra is one state which is called Andhra pradesh

I think you are mixing the two things up, and yes people with little historical knowledge may have gotten confused. Anyways we can't discuss the volumes of British Indian, or modern day India Pakistan history in one post!

OK here is a bit more detail.

***Indian government took police action against Nizam in 1947-1948

****Indian government has been fighting the Naxal movement since 1960.

Hope that helps.

[antiobl]

Re: Why India Became a Democracy and Pakistan Did not

@BirdFlu

The very basic difference between India & Pakistan is formers Army has never ever in past interfered with its Govt.

Indian Army is like a "Tamed" Dog

Incorrect.

It is not the Indian army but a very large section of Indian civilians who are "Tamed" or "refined" or "docile" *.

On the other hand, Indian army is dominated by the same Punjabi (Mostly Hindus and Sikhs) stock, as that of Pakistani army (Mostly Punjabi Muslims).

In summary: there is no difference between the two armies, but there is a "huge" difference between the number of Pakistani anarchists vs. Indian anarchists.

Many of the anarchist tendencies in India have been overwhelmed by very strong Indian nationalism.

Whereas Pakistanis anarchist tendencies are very hard to control at national level. Instead they are controlled at ethnic or religious level.

In Pakistan many people (educated as well as Mullahs) are ready to burn the whole of Pakistan in the name of Islam.

Whereas few Hindu extremists only burn Muslims (and some cases Sikhs) but not the whole country.

Thus the amount and type of anarchism defines the level of army + Police action in India vs. Pakistan.*

[shawaiz_K]

Re: Why India Became a Democracy and Pakistan Did not

@BirdFlu

The very basic difference between India & Pakistan is formers Army has never ever in past interfered with its Govt.

Indian Army is like a "Tamed" Dog

Yes, unlike Pak Amry the Indian army is more professional and doesn't interfere in the politics...they seems to be more interested in kicking the Pak Army butt at every given opprotunity, and they do it passionately.

[lakkis25]

Re: Why India Became a Democracy and Pakistan Did not

@antiobl

I think you are mixing the two things up, and yes people with little historical knowledge may have gotten confused. Anyways we can't discuss the volumes of British Indian, or modern day India Pakistan history in one post!

OK here is a bit more detail.

***Indian government took police action against Nizam in 1947-1948

****Indian government has been fighting the Naxal movement since 1960.

Hope that helps.

you are correct
now there is no Naxal Movement in AP, thats the best thing did by current CM
and FYI Naxal Movement is not a Seperatist movement or they run their own govt like Taleban in Swat
they attack rich Landlords and distribute the wealth to poor

[antiobl]

Re: Why India Became a Democracy and Pakistan Did not

you are correct

Thank you!

now there is no Naxal Movement in AP, thats the best thing did by current CM

I wouldn't say that. Naxal (leftie marxist) movement has a mass appeal among Indian peasants. That's why this movement goes underground for a while and then pops up its ugly head.

However the idea was not to degenerate India with this example, rather its purpose was to show that such movements in India do result in army-police action just like a similar movement would, in any other part of the world.

[lakkis25]

Re: Why India Became a Democracy and Pakistan Did not

Thank you!

I wouldn't say that. Naxal (leftie marxist) movement has a mass appeal among Indian peasants. That's why this movement goes underground for a while and then pops up its ugly head.

However the idea was not to degenerate India with this example, rather its purpose was to show that such movements in India do result in army-police action just like a similar movement would, in any other part of the world.

thats true that they go underground when conditions seems unsuitable, but now a days they lack public support, because they also becoming like a greedy politician

[Ali_R]

Re: Why India Became a Democracy and Pakistan Did not

because they didn't have power crazy guys like Ayub, Zia and Musharraf.

I'm not sure if that is considered as rant, but this pretty sums It.
We have been forced to believe (from the very beginning of Pak), that our Army is all pride of nation. Yes Army is every nations pride and we Pakistanis had (have) one of the well known Armys in the world. Feared by many. From US to Australia. HOwever we ingored the fact, that not every Army leader can be a good politican. I believe (after having Paks history in mind), there is no military ruler in past, who hasn't just though of the benefit of his own in first place. Before thinking about the nation Itself. Our blind support (like many these days) for the same leaders has not ended yet. Mainly because Army is a Mafia and has all controll over the country.
It's high time to stop blaiming Quaid over creating Pakistan. Let him be an alcoholic, let him have links to Ismaili community, let him be the one wearing angreeji clothes, let him be the one speak English, let him love and hate whosoever, let him be the bad man. BUt he is the one who made this all happen.
A Pakistan with an existance of only 60 years and yet we can compete with most of the S.A. Country today. We can be really proud of It.
India had all It's gates open for a democracy from the very beginning. Israel is It's buddy and the only democracy Middle East. Military rulers left marks on their Presidential seats. Every PM was at least a military officer, before joining politics. Highest rate of almost under aged and part time soldiers hiding in every country and on order they return to their country to fight muslim seperatist groups. A democracy ruled by dictators has a lot in common with what we see today in Pak.

[antiobl]

Re: Why India Became a Democracy and Pakistan Did not

..... but now a days they lack public support, because they also becoming like a greedy politician

Good for India that they become greedy politicians instead of anarchist rebels. Even in our case Mohajir Qaumi Movement went through the same metamorphosis.

[zain281]

Re: Why India Became a Democracy and Pakistan Did not

After the death of Mohammad Ali Jinnah and Liaqat Ali Khan, Pakistan was left with crook politicians and greedy military leaders, and we still see effects of that. India on the other side was led by Nehru till into the 60s who brought democracy and provided stability to the country.

[Tariq_Akhtar]

Re: Why India Became a Democracy and Pakistan Did not

Why this obfuscations about whether India has democracy or not? They certainly have something far superior than what Pakistan has. You can tell that from the very fact that in India power has transitioned without accidenet every time where as in Pakistan it has almost never happened.

So the question was why? Obviously the answer is in terms of differences between the Countries.

So what are the primary structural social and cultural differences?

Structurally both inheritted from British India. While India went with linguistic states, Pakistan retained provicial structure which sanctified and polarized ethnicity as a political arguement.

socially speaking India has through a combinatin of pandering and some planning achieved some degree of internal peace. So had Pakistan until islam flared up as a soCial obsession and got melded with terrorism. To a point where all crime is jihad and all jihad is crimE.

Finally, culturally, until recEnt decadesn there is very little cultural difference. Even now tastes are similar, colors scents musiC, art forms, accents, public behavior, in-home behavior are all quite similar. Being uni-religious country Pakistan has developed. differeces culturally as its people don't have to be quite as sensitive to others.

So which of thEse differences can leaD to the undemocratic 'system" in Pakistan?

My considered pick has been and continues to be obsession with islam.

You take your pick

[lakkis25]

Re: Why India Became a Democracy and Pakistan Did not

Good for India that they become greedy politicians instead of anarchist rebels. Even in our case Mohajir Qaumi Movement went through the same metamorphosis.

MQM started with ethinic support, but this is Markist, communist groups, and no religion no caste for them