33: 22/21: *Verily, you have in the Prophet of ALLAH an excellent model, for him who hopes to meet ALLAH and the Last Day and who remembers ALLAH much. *
Its very clear that in order to be close to Allah (a common goal of all religions), the best way is to follow the model (Sunnah) of The Holy Prophet (saw).
But you ask, how to gauge what is truly the ‘Word of the Holy Prophet (saw)’ and his ‘Sunnah’, keeping in mind the fact that the books that illustrate these were compiled long after AnHazoor (saw) physical presence in this very world? And also keeping in mind that Allah only promised Quran as ‘Kitab-e-Mahfooz’ not any other book?
My answer: There is no disagreement in Quran, Sunnah & Hadiths! The disagreement is in our understanding of the three domains. As the beloved Prophet (saw) cannot say anything against the word of Allah, nor can he act not being inline with the teachings of Quran. So, if there seems to be clash, its either in the reporting of the saying of the Holy Prophet (saw) or the reporting of his Sunnah! Or that we do not know the whole context of the situation in which it was said & the misunderstanding is on our side!
[This message has been edited by ahmadjee (edited May 07, 2002).]
WoW, I am surprised/shocked this thread coming from a Ahmaedi/Qadiyaani, anyway.
To further emphasize on AJ's point:
[li]Say (O Muhammad): Obey Allah and the[/li]Messenger (Muhammad). But if they turn away, then Allah does not like the
disbelievers. (Aali Imraan 3:32)
[li]O you who believe! Obey Allah, and obey the Messenger (Muhammad) and render not vain your deeds. (Muhammad 47:33)[/li]
[li]Verily, We have sent you (O Muhammad) as a witness, as a bearer of glad tidings, and as a warner. In order that you (O mankind) may believe in Allah and His Messenger, and that you assist and honour him, and/li glorify (Allah's) praises morning and afternoon. (Fath 48:8 9)
[li]And whatsoever the Messenger/li gives you, take it, and whatsoever he forbids you, abstain (from
it), and fear Allah. Verily, Allah is Severe in punishment. (Hashr 59:7)
[li]Say (O Muhammad to mankind): If you (really) love Allah then follow me (i.e. accept Islamic Monotheism, follow the Qur'an and the Sunnah), Allah will love you and forgive you of your sins. And Allah is Oft [/li]Forgiving, Most Merciful. (Aali Imraan 3:31)
[li]Obey Allah and obey the Messenger,[/li]but if you turn away, he (Messenger Muhammad) is only responsible for the
duty placed on him (i.e. to convey Allah's Message) and you for that placed on
you. If you obey him, you shall be on the right guidance. The Messenger's duty
is only to convey (the message) in a clear way (i.e. to preach in a plain way).
(Nur 24:54)
AND WHEN IT IS SAID TO THEM: "DO NOT MAKE MISCHIEF ON THE EARTH", THEY SAY"WE ARE ONLY PEACE-MAKERS"VERILY, THEY ARE THE ONES WHO MAKES MISCHIEF, BUT THEY PERCEIVE NOT"-[Qur'an-2:11-12]
this is the whole point of hadeeth that i don't understand!
if there is a clash between the Qur'an and hadeeth, we say that there is a misunderstanding between what was done and how it was reported---> so, in this case we prefer the Qur'an
if there isn't any clash, y would we still choose Hadeeth, because it would be even better to choose the Qur'an:
what I'm trying to say is that, whatever situation (whether hadeeth clashes with Qur'an or doesn't) there is no point in following Hadeeth, because everything what is necessary is already stated in the Qur'an! and as far it isn't stated in the Qur'an, one can conclude that it isn't necessary, otherwise it would have been in the Qur'an!
so, for me the Hadeeth has no more value than merely history writing! just as Herodotus reports Greek history or a Plinius reports Roman history: the same way the Bukharis and Muslim of this world only and nothing more than that report the history of the holy prophet, and just like in any other book of history there are mistake in it! So no point in thinking these books as semi-devine!
"Plan for the future - because that's where you are going to spend the rest of your life"
"The only place where 'success' comes before 'work' is the dictionary"
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well if u wish to regard hadith just as a mere history, then do so at ur own pleasure....
but be very content that u not causing harm to anyone by rejecting the Prophet's words....
Quran does tell us about people like u.... Quran* 3:184 Then if they reject you (O Muhammad SAW), so were Messengers rejected before you, who came with Al-Baiyinât (clear signs, proofs, evidences) and the Scripture and the Book of Enlightenment.*
"Our Lord! forgive us our sins and anything we may have done that transgressed our duty; establish our feet firmly and help us against those that resist faith." **Quran(3:147)
I understand where you are coming from and its a valid argument. Though, you have to understand that not all Hadiths deal with "Shariah" or the law & mostly its these Hadiths that at times cause a 'clash' (as you probably have read in different threads here)
Many Hadiths deal with simple every day to day matters of life, like treating one's parents or spouse, how the Holy prophet performed certain rituals, predictions of the future, etc. In other words, there is a whole load of knowledge that is buried in there that cannot and should not be ignored.
Another factor is the "love of the Holy Prophet (saw)" Just like if I truly like someone, I would want to be like him too & if on top of that Allah says he is the best model to reach Him then how can we deny its importance. And the only litrary work we know of about the 'best model' are the book of Hadiths (which are way more than the 6 Shahiah ones) or triditions of Sunnah.
So, in my opinion refusing to consider Hadiths & Sunnah all together will be a mistake on our part. But I agree with your 100% that Hadiths are not reported perfect, and Quran being the absolute perfect book should always be considered first.
Disclaimer: These are my **personal* opinions and should not be taken as anything otherwise.*
armuhgal and ahmadjee: I fully agree with all your points but the problem is that: how do you now whether a Hadeeth is authentic or not: to find out you look at the Quran, and look what it says about this matter: but instead of doing that, y not directly look into the Quran.
Of course I agree, the hadith gives examples of everyday life, which aren’t stated in the Quran, but the fact that they aren’t in the Quran means that they aren’t compulsary!
Furthermore, nowadays I have the feeling that people give more value to hadith than to the Quran itself
The argument is lengthy, nevertheless the verse you quoted has a context, as do all the verses in the Qur’an but sectarians have a hobby of picking and chosing snippets from the Qur’an that suit their purpose.
The context of 33:21 is War.
Allah is warning the Prophet about those companions who would lose heart in war but would surround the Prophet when it came time to collect wordly goods as spoils of war.
[al-Ahzab 33:19] Being sparing of their help to you (believers). But when the fear cometh, then thou (Muhammad) seest them regarding thee with rolling eyes like one who fainteth unto death. Then, when the fear departeth, they scald you with sharp tongues in their greed for wealth (from the spoil). Such have not believed. Therefor Allah maketh their deeds fruitless. And that is easy for Allah.
[al-Ahzab 33:20] They hold that the clans have not retired (for good); and if the clans should advance (again), they would fain be in the desert with the wandering Arabs, asking for the news of you; and if they were among you, they would not give battle, save a little.
[al-Ahzab 33:21] Verily in the messenger of Allah ye have a good example for him who looketh unto Allah and the Last Day, and remembereth Allah much.
[al-Ahzab 33:22] And when the true believers saw the clans, they said: This is that which Allah and His messenger promised us. Allah and His messenger are true. It did but confirm them in their faith and resignation.
PakistaniAbroad: The Prophet’s military leadership is the subject here and the followers were given his excellent example of standing steadfast against aggression only looking towards Allah for support and disregarding wordly gains.
It’s not about how the Prophet went to the bathroom or brushed his teeth
[quote]
the verse you quoted has a context, as do all the verses
[/quote]
That's another of the fundamental difference in the understanding of the teachings of Quran. I do believe that verses have a context but I also believe that Quran is not limited to one & only one meaning. A book as perfect as Quran, in every aspect is not a book of literal history or mere commandments.
Every meaning of the verses that do not contradict with other verses & give a new horizon & understanding to the teachings of Quran is acceptable in my opinion!
[quote]
It's not about how the Prophet went to the bathroom or brushed his teeth
[/quote]
First, Hadiths & Sunnah is much more than the above! Second, I consider it a show of affection towards the Holy Prophet (saw) to brush my teeth the same way he did. Though it doesn't give me the right to say, it's the only way to do it, nor that its mandatory for everyone to follow. Advisable ... Yes!
[quote]
Though it doesn't give me the right to say, it's the only way to do it, nor that its mandatory for everyone to follow. Advisable ... Yes!
[/quote]
Good.. this is where you and I agree.. keep all such fascinations to a personal level and do not advise others to follow something no one can even prove was a Prophet's way in the first place.
Interesting point! If I can't prove it was the Prophet's way, then how can you claim it was not?!
For instance, you ask your Dad about his Grand Father and he tells you a story about him. Would you believe him or not? If yes, why? If no, then why not?
Interesting point! If I can't prove it was the Prophet's way, then how can you claim it was not?!
For instance, you ask your Dad about his Grand Father and he tells you a story about him. Would you believe him or not? If yes, why? If no, then why not?**
[/quote]
ahmadjee, in logic that's called a burden of proof.
If after a couple of hundred years of the Prophet's death someone compiles a collection of sayings and attributes them all the way back to the Prophet the burden of proof is on them to prove every bit is right; not those who reject the compilations as heresay.
As for the father grandfather story, yeah I'd believe my father but by God I'll not thrust a pole down your's or someone elses throat or elsewhere to believe it, because it's all anecdotal evidence easily filed under heresay and that too from someone who's biased in the matter.
For you or anyone else to believe it I need to PROVE beyond doubt it's true.. If I fail to demonstrate that.. just pure love and reverance for my grandfather and a blind belief in my father's word aren't enough argument in a court of logic.
First, I am not shoving anything down your throat, so come out of your defensive mode.
Second, I give you the same logic you will give any non-Muslim who will question Quran being exactly the same word to word as revealed from God to the Holy Prophet (saw). After all, it wasn't compiled in a text format until the time of Hazrat Usman (ra). Until then it was stored on different pieces of leaves & stones but mostly in the hearts of the Sahabah. If the Sahabah can remember without a shadow of doubt the 114 chapters of Quran, without forgetting even a single alphabet ... then aren't they capable of remembering what color was Holy Prophet's hair?
Many context's of Quran were compiled similar to the compilation of Hadiths & Sunnah after many centuries. For instance when and where a specific verse was revealed.
My belief stands in the middle! I don't consider Hadiths to be a total fabrication like youself, but I don't believe all Hadiths to be absolute (and none Naozobillah to be abrogating Quran) like a few others believe.
Second, I give you the same logic you will give any non-Muslim who will question Quran being exactly the same word to word as revealed from God to the Holy Prophet (saw). After all, it wasn't compiled in a text format until the time of Hazrat Usman (ra). Until then it was stored on different pieces of leaves & stones but mostly in the hearts of the Sahabah.**
[/quote]
No ahmadjee, I wouldn't tell a Non Muslim that the sole reason of survival of Qur'an is because it was memorized. It is because it was written down and memorized. Years of revelation and do you for an instant think it wasn't written down or arranged?
I find it very had to believe that the sahabas had the entire contents memorized WITHOUT having to look at a written manuscript. Oral transmissions ONLY are unreliable. They need backing up with texts.
The information about the compilation of Qur'an comes from narrations which cannot stand the slightest of scrutiny. One claims it started under Usman's regime, the other claims Abu Bakar compiled a copy and yet another said it was Umar's period.
To top it off shias claim it was written by Ali in the Prophet's lifetime and to prove they cite Sunni sources which say that at the famous last sermon the Prophet mentioned he was leaving with people two things one of which was Qur'an. How could he have left parchments and/or an uncollected uncompiled book to his audience??
[quote]
Many context's of Quran were compiled similar to the compilation of Hadiths & Sunnah after many centuries. For instance when and where a specific verse was revealed.
[/quote]
I reject asbab-e-nazool's and i urge you to do the same. They are as bad as the concocted theory of abrogation of verses in the Qur'an. These are just some of the attempts by the non muslims at trivializing a divine scripture. Narrations induced into the religion to attack from where it was possible as Qur'ans original message is protected by non other than Allah.
Some of these narrations are ludicrous enough to make you doubt the sensibilities of those who fabricated it and moreso of those who actually take them to be true!!
[quote] My belief stands in the middle! I don't consider Hadiths to be a total fabrication like youself, but I don't believe **all Hadiths to be absolute (and none Naozobillah to be abrogating Quran) like a few others believe.**
[/quote]
Here's where a critical analysis of a piece of literature can begin. History is written by the victorious and the same happened with Hadith otherwise we wouldn't have diametrically opposite narrations about the same people from different sects of Islam today. Both stand no chance when scrutinized.
Let's stick to the Qur'an as it repeatedly say that it's complete and contains explanations for everything. Why on earth would one want to consult anything else?
[li] Do you realize that in support of Quran being exactly the same as being revealed to AnHazoor (saw) you took the help of Hadiths?(Hint hint, last sermon) & all your other arguments don't carry an iota of burden of proof?[/li]
I believe Quran was written down on scrolls & stones, but the only proof I have of that is in Hadiths or the traditions. If you & I start believing all Hadiths are fabrications then, we have no proof what so ever that it is indeed the original text. As the same people who in line reported the Hadiths are the ones who reported the Quran was written down @ the time of AnHazoor (saw) & was also memorized by the Sahaba (ra). So, aren't you being selective on believing some of their reporting and not other?
[li] I agree with you on Shan-e-Nazool (or asbab-e-nazool), but just like Hadiths I don't reject them totally. For example, its good to know if a the Surah was Macci or Madani but limiting all the Surah to that particular instance after which it was revealed wouldn't be justice to the Holy Quran. And indeed they are some totally ludicrous.[/li]
[li] I disagree that history was only written by the victorious. By all means its bias like any other history but saying its a all lies would be taking it a little too far. [/li]
Another thing we are missing here in this argument is that in the early times of Islam, Arabs were not of the habit to write things down - they memorized. If I remember correctly, according to secular (and Islamic) historians the people who could actually write at the time of the Holy prophet were only in double digits.
[This message has been edited by ahmadjee (edited May 09, 2002).]
[li] Do you realize that in support of Quran being exactly the same as being revealed to AnHazoor (saw) you took the help of Hadiths?(Hint hint, last sermon) & all your other arguments don’t carry an iota of burden of proof?**[/li][/quote]
No ahmadjee, I was referring to the point of view of our shia brothers. The last sermon has three versions itself. Talk about the accuracy of oral transmission and superhuman memories
We have manuscripts dating to late 7th century and parchments dating to early 7th century. Which give us some indication that this Book did exist. The hadith narrators were not Qur’an writers. Fabricators have USED those names because we hold them in high esteem and wouldn’t think twice if a story had their respected name at the top.
Once again I respect the need to have a history and to decipher early Islamic society through texts, but in no way should these writings be treated as pristine and the divine truth and an interpretation of the Qur’an subjected to these texts.
The way it’s done today is if Tabari, or Ibn-Khatir or Ibn-Ishaq have written something, it’s taken as a fatwa and the interpretation set in stone! They were only humans and it was nothing more than their understanding and point of view.
[quote]
**[li] I disagree that history was only written by the victorious. By all means its bias like any other history but saying its a all lies would be taking it a little too far. **[/li][/quote]
Why else would we have so many version of it ahmadjee?? why can’t the two major sects ever reconcile their differences?? it’s because of two alternate histories that they compiled. The truth is out there, but it’s certainly not readily available when studying literature from either source.
Incorrect ahmadjee, and I quote a snippet from an article on quran.org.uk
“At the time that the Qur’an was revealed, the literary talent and eloquence of the Arabs was at its peak. Works created by poets and orators commanded the attention and admiration of everyone, and literature constituted the only art cultivated by the Arab elite.”
And when Allah says:
[al-Qalam 68:1] Nun. By the pen and that which they write (therewith),
[al-Anbiya’ 21:104] On the day when We will roll up heaven like the rolling up of the scroll for writings,…
[at-Tur 52:41] Or possess they the Unseen so that they can write (it) down?
[al-Qalam 68:47.9] Or is the Unseen theirs that they can write (thereof)?
[al-Baqarah 2:79] Therefore woe be unto those who write the Scripture with their hands and then say, “This is from Allah,” that they may purchase a small gain therewith. Woe unto them for that their hands have written, and woe unto them for that they earn thereby.
PakistaniAbroad it does give an indication that the audience was very well aware and capable of writing.
Also:
[al-`Ankabut 29:48] And thou (O Muhammad) wast not a reader of any scripture before it, nor didst thou write it with thy right hand, for then might those have doubted, who follow falsehood.
and..
[al-Furqan 25:5] And they say: Fables of the men of old which he hath written down so that they are dictated to him morn and evening.
PakistaniAbroad: it does give a hint that writing was common enough, also shatters the myth that the Prophet couldn’t read or write.. he may have been ummi meaning unaware of previous scriptures but certainly from the Qur’an we are told he could read and/or write.
And lastly:
[at-Tatfif 83:8] Ah! what will convey unto thee what Sijjin is! -
[at-Tatfif 83:9] ** A written record.**
[at-Tatfif 83:19] Ah, what will convey unto thee what 'Illiyin is! -
[at-Tatfif 83:20] A written record
[al-Ahzab 33:6] The Prophet is closer to the believers than their selves… …This is written in the Book
PakistaniAbroad: Now don’t you think Allah’s word would be enough for us.. I mean who would dare challenge Allah (who never forgets) if he told us something was so and so but even Almighty has written down things which is nothing but a guidance to us for our matters.
Allah’s System commands writing down information:
[Yunus 10:21]… Lo! Our messengers write down that which ye plot.
[an-Nur 24:33]… And (as for) those who ask for a writing from among those whom your right hands possess, give them the writing if you know any good in them…
[al-Baqarah 2:282] O you who believe! when you deal with each other in contracting a debt for a fixed time, then write it down; and let a scribe write it down between you with fairness; and the scribe should not refuse to write as Allah has taught him, so he should write; and let him who owes the debt dictate…and the witnesses should not refuse when they are summoned; and be not averse to writing it (whether it is) small or large, with the time of its falling due; this is more equitable in the sight of Allah and assures greater accuracy in testimony, and the nearest (way) that you may not entertain doubts (afterwards), …
PakistaniAbroad: What more do we need to know??
Reject unsubstantiated Oral Tramsmissions. They are the root cause for the problems of Islam today.
[This message has been edited by PakistaniAbroad (edited May 09, 2002).]