Interesting points by all of you: but I have to say, I can find myself with PA: those points are clear and resemble mainly my point of view as well:
First of all, we agree that the life of the Holy Prophet is the Qur’an being brought into daily life: in other words: His life is the personification of the Qur’an: after all, we can say that He didn’t do anything which was against the Qur’an. We can also turn that around: the Qur’an is actually the life of the Holy Prophet written down! So, if we agree that Qur’an is life of Holy Prophet and the Holy Prophet is the Qur’an: then there is now room for the Hadith to show us, what his life was like, because we can find everything what is important for us back in the Qur’an!!!
Furthermore it is a Hadith that the Holy Prophet used to fight in a war with a sword: that doesn’t mean that we all from now on will fight with a sword, because that’s a Hadith or sunnah! (perhaps that explains why the Taliban were beaten so badly!!!!).
Instead what it shows us, is that we should use all means at our disposal to defeat the enemies of Islam! And it doesn’t matter if it is with a sword or a tank, if only we don’t hurt the innocent, don’t kill and plunder etc. If in those times people fought with swords doesn’t mean that by fighting with a swrod nowadays we will gain Sawaab, because we comply to Sunnah!!!!
**
[quote]
by Ibrahim:
Ibrahim says: Thus the Prophet (pbuh) NEVER failed in preaching what was revealed to him, nor did he fail in guiding his companions as to what was the best behavior that would be pleasing to Allah (swt) .**
[/quote]
**
[quote]
by clubber lang:
“the quran is 1st and the sunnah has the details explaining the situation” **
[/quote]
if u say this, then you are implying that the Qur’an in itself isn’t enough: that’s not true! The Qur’an is complete and doesn’t need any explanation! Otherwise it would be flawed!
**
[quote]
by Ibrahim:
“On the other hand those that witness the Prophets way of life will indeed emulate him in the hope of pleasing their Creator who had also conveyed the following repeatedly in various ways.”**
[/quote]
it’s not per se that we emulate Him in his actions, but in his “neeyat”! If our motives are the same, then there’s nothing wrong if we do something differently! And that’s one of the main points of the Qur’an: to have sabar and be humble and decent! And that’s what the Holy Prophet was showing us! And it doesn’t matter if we do that in another way: if only we have the same motives as he has! Also see the example given about fighting with a sword!
**
[quote]
by Ibrahim:
“And amongst mankind , HE chose the perfect in character to reveal the final testament (Qur’an) and we the generations coming after this perfect person ( that Allah (swt) accepted) are to emulate him as best as we could and this can only be done by studying what are his ways, which cannot be revealed in the Qur’an in full but can be read through the eyes and ears of those that were present amongst him. ( which is what we now have amongst us as the hadiths)” **
[/quote]
again I say, it’s not that we exactly emulate Him in His actions, but exactly emulate Him in His motives!!!! And His motives are revealed in the Qur’an, so no need for Hadith is there? As I said one of the messages of the Qur’an is to show humbleness and decency and try to please Allah and those are exactly the same motives as the Holy Prophet’s!!!!! Again, no need for hadith in this case.
**
[quote]
Ibrahim says ; this argument is flawed, since all you need to do is find out where in the Qur’an Allah (swt) enjoined circumcision for Muslims and if it is not mentioned therein why are Muslims doing it? and why all Prophets practiced it? Just look at those who are trying to market this argument in this forum, they cannot even explain how to pray in simple terms, when it is obligatory to pray daily and know how to do it as taught to the prophet and as practiced by his followers for 1423 years. **
[/quote]
thse rigid poor ahmadies are so misguided by their pathetic leader, and they just come here to misguide the ppl..
Let us Seek Forgivenes, guidence from Allah, and Pray that he give us hidath from Quran and life of prophet Muhammad(SAW) and his teachings. and Bless us Muslimeens on the day of judgement with the Shafa'ath of prophet Muhammad(SAW) Ameen.
.::. ﷲ ﻼﺃ ﷲﺃ ﻶ .::.
Allah-o-Akbar
,_ ,
(O,O)
()
-"--"--- To be sure of hitting the target, shoot first, and call whatever you hit the target
Another point of interest, especially for those who are “advocates” of Hadith:
Consider the following hypothetical situation:
Suppose that for some reason, we didn’t get any Hadith. (suppose all those books were burnt or ceased to exist) Doesn’t matter how, but we just don’t have any Hadith among us. We only have the Qur’an and nothing more: everyone in favour of Hadith will be implying that with only the Qur’an at our disposal we wouldn’t be able to become a “good” person!!!!!!!! On the contrary, I think that the Qur’an in itself is sufficient to show us the right way and how to become a “good” person: and no Hadith will be able to make us better!
After all, if we didn’t get Hadith, u people are saying that we wouldn’t be able to become a good person, and thus you are saying that we need something “additional” to Qur’an which shows us the right way: That’s not true, the only thing we need to become a “good” person is the Qur’an; nothing more!
Furthermore, I think that the Hadith is having the same effect on Islam as the Gospels had on Chritianity: because the Evangelist started to collect and write down Hazrat Issa’s actions and in addition to that started adding there own variants of all stories, the true meaning of Christianity was under-rated and people started to put more emphasis on those Gospels than on the true meaning of the Bible: Exactly, the same is happening in Islam: people are putting more emphasis on Hadith, because of which the true meaning of Qur’an is undervalued!
Whenever I listen to a so-called “scholar”, he is giving more examples originating from Hadith than from the Qur’an! That’s not right! It should be other way round: He should give Quranic verses!
"Plan for the future - because that's where you are going to spend the rest of your life"
"The only place where 'success' comes before 'work' is the dictionary"
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Well everyone, I will give you a reference to a book, which I think was very enlightening for me regarding Hadith:
It is : "HADITH A RE-EVALUATION" by Kassim Ahmad
I think everyone in this discussion should take a moment and if possible take a look at this book. It wil change your opinion of Hadith, it will make you think more critically about this issue!
I'll only mention a few topics which are discussed in that book, and which are for me arguments that we should be more critical of Hadith:
All Muslims are required to uphold the Hadith or sunnah of the Prophet, i. e. the so-called Prophetic traditions, as a primary source of law apart from the Quran, according to the teachings of classical jurisprudence. Yet not many, indeed very few, realize that the basis of this theory was promulgated 200 yrs after the death of the Holy Prophet by the famous jurist Shafi'i. What have come to known as the "Six authentic books" of hadith were compiled after the promulgation of this theory! 220 and 270 yrs after the death of the Holy Prophet!!!!
Furthermore, how come that the Shi'ite have their own set of hadith which are very contradictory to the Sunni's????
about the mode of Prayer:
the traditionists (= Hadith followers) ask: if we do not have hadith, how do we pray?
They (=hadith) say that the mode of prayer were given to Mohammed (PBUH) during the Night Journey.
But this is invariably untrue!
The Quran clearly states the obligatory prayers and all other religious observances of Islam were originally taught to prophet Ibrahim. All the prophets and their true followers since Ibrahim practised them, but, as the Quran also informs us, later generations, including the Arabs at the advent of Mohammed (PBUH) had lost these prayers. The prayers at the Shrine at the time were described by the Quran as "no more than deceit and alienation".
Furthermore, one of the earliest quranic revelations (surah al-Muzzammil) already mentions salat and zakat, indicating that these religious observances were well-known and being practised! And the Night Journey took place after the initial revelations were revealed!
If u think about it, where do we learn how to pray? From the Hadith? Not me! I've leart how to pray from my parents and teachers, as most of you have done! Noone of you picked up a book of Hadith and read how to pray! The method of praying is passed on from generation to generetion, passing it on from the very first source, that is prophet Ibrahim!!!
Concludingly, we don't need to know how to pray via the Quran because we know it already from prophet Ibrahim, but still the Quran gives us the main points of salat: normal ablution (5:6), abnormal ablution (4:43), proper dress (7:31), standing and facing the Qiblah (2:144), the times (11:114, 17:78, 24:58, 2:238, 30:17-18, 20:130), the bowing and prostrating (among others 2:43) using moderate voice (17:110) etc etc etc!!!!! this just gets to show u that there is no need for Hadith to show us how to pray!!!!!
It should be remembered that the Quran repeatedly teaches us to be concerned with doing good sincerely and not be concerned with form!!! It is obvious y it should be so. An obsession with form would defeat the purpose of an action!!!! The Hadith are mainly emphasizing the FORM and thus the purpose is under-rated, (as I already mentioned in another reply).
whereas the Quran was authenticated by Mohammed (PBUH) himself, there is no such Hadith which was authenticated by Him. In the contrary he was reported to prohibit the writing down of any hadith: this explains why there aren't any hadith originating from the time of the Holy Prophet's life and why the first ("authentic") hadiths are from 200 years later!!!!!!!
Ironically here's a Hadith prohibiting the writing down of Hadith:
Abi Said al Khudri reports that the Prophet said: "do not write down anything from me except the Quran. Whoever writes down anything other than the Quran must erase it."
Many hadiths quote miracles performed by the Holy Prophet. The Quran tells us clearly that the Prophet didn't perform any miracles. The only miracle given to the Prophet is the Quran itself!
This verse says it: "They said: 'How come no miracles were sent to him from his Lord?' Say: 'Miracles come only from God, and I am no more than a warner'. Is it not enough of a miracle that we sent down to you this scripture, which is being recited to them? Indeed, it is mercy and a message for those who believe."
very interesting point: Bukhari is reported to have sifted through more than 600.000 hadiths and had picked only 7275 to be included in his "authentic" book. (only 1.25%) now, if we make a calculation: suppose, on average, a hadith is 3 simple sentences (mostly they are paragraphs), Bukhari had to collect, read, investigate and record ober 1.8 million (!) sentences over a period of 40 years. This is equivalent researching and attesting to the authenticity of over 300 books, all equivalent to the thickness and complexity of the Quran in only 40 years! Compare to this the 6346 verses of the Quran revealed only in 23 years!!!!
"Plan for the future - because that's where you are going to spend the rest of your life"
"The only place where 'success' comes before 'work' is the dictionary"
This message was sponsored by the "Guppie of the Year"-Award Committee
[This message has been edited by NeSCio (edited May 11, 2002).]
I don’t say that: I say, that the prayer as we perform it now, was already known in principle to Ibrahim (PBUH).
furthermore, does it state in the Quran that u have to recite the Quran during prayers? (i don’t know) All i know is that the Quran says that you should remember Allah during prayers: if that is only done by reciting Quran I don’t know…
“Plan for the future - because that’s where you are going to spend the rest of your life” “The only place where ‘success’ comes before ‘work’ is the dictionary”
This message was sponsored by the “Guppie of the Year”-Award Committee
Nesico no 1 is implying eth Quran is false or anything like that....the quran has the genral rules and the sunnah explians them in detail.....like i said eth Quran dont tell u hoe to perform prayer but ONLY says praying is a obligation.....we look to da sunnah to see how the prophet (saw) prayed (thsi is just 1 example)
and no the quran is not the life of Muhammed(saw) it is the speech of Allah(swt) addressing all of mankind!
[quote]
Originally posted by PakistaniAbroad:
** If you are referring to my post, I"m managing very well thank you very much. The prayer is defined and is surprisingly simple. It may not be the way you'd like it to be, but then again, i'm not imposing or reconciling the message in the qur'an with current practices. That's tantamount to looking for Easter Bunnies and Christmas Trees in the Bible.**
[/quote]
What a duck!!!
When you don't have an answer say something that sounds philosophical, but is actually crap.
Why don't you tell us how you are managing to pray and where is it defined in the Qur'an.
By the way, current practice has been followed for 1400 years and is the way Mulsims pray the world over. If they were not the prescribed way, do you expect 1.5 billion (minus 1) would follow the same pattern?
Rabbeshrah lee sadree; wa yassirlee amree; yafqahoo qaulee.
As in this chain, I find the munkir-e-hadeeth (aka submitters) are either ignorant of the science of hadeeth collection or arrogant in their beliefs. They are unable to answer simple questions about their manner of performing basic pillars of faith.
I have come across two excelent articles which I invite very knowledge-seeking individual to read, and understand.
[quote]
Originally posted by sholay:
**
PA and Crew
OK. Let's just answer the following question!
Without use A'Hadeeth or History books as a reference.
What year was the Prophet PBUH born?
At what age did he receive Prophethood?
Who was he married to?
How many wives and children did he have?
When did he depart from this world?
Furthermore, how has the Prophet PBUH fulfilled the Prophecy from the Old Gospel, (Deutronomy)stating that the Chosen One will be Unto like Moses
**
[/quote]
sholay bro does any of the above matter in becoming a good Muslim??
Islam doesn't stress on Prophets and messengers but ALLAH, the one who sends these prophets.
Furthermore you seem to have missed the argument NesCico had earlier tried to make that these books could be a source of history, but they are NOT to be taken as Scripture or considered a definition of the Qur'an.
[quote]
Originally posted by PakistaniAbroad:
Islam doesn't stress on Prophets and messengers but ALLAH, the one who sends these prophets.
[/quote]
I disagree; otherwise anyone could have been the recipient of Quran! Why Allah chose Muhammad-o-Mustafa (saw) to be the bearer of Quran has great significance, and saying Islam doesn’t stress on this is false statement!
Saying, that only the book is needed will be equal in saying that the spiritual evolution of mankind that started from Adam & ended at Muhammad was not necessary. If it’s taken to be true, God could have just given Quran to Adam and then there was no need for the rest of the 124, 000 or so prophets!
Let me add that the Islam says:
There is no God by Allah, and Muhammad is his Prophet
This declaration is enough proof that Muhammad (saw) is part of the belief, not outside it.
[quote]
Furthermore you seem to have missed the argument NesCico had earlier tried to make that these books could be a source of history, but they are NOT to be taken as Scripture or considered a definition of the Qur'an.
[/quote]
I do not consider Hadiths to be the scripture, nor do I consider Quran restrictive of it. But saying Hadiths is merely history, is doing injustice to the word of the greatest man that ever lived (or will live) on this planet we call earth.
In the above, reported sayings are not Hadiths but the ones that are authentically the true sayings of AnHazoor (saw) that elaborate the enigma of the perfect Holy book - Quran!
[This message has been edited by ahmadjee (edited May 11, 2002).]
Let me get this straight, I assumed that you did not reject hadiths in its entirety, when you said you don’t follow it strictly” , whereas PA’s stance is hadiths are fabricated and MUST not be followed at all, are you now saying, you both have the same notions?
At the same time, let me stress, It does not matter to me what you feel or had decided to do with your life, what matters to me, is that when people start expressing their personal feelings in public concerning an established Belief, they tend to misguide others, as such those who have better senses have to react and correct the problem in order to establish the truth or else we will end up like the Hindus and Jews and Christians.
Hence let me stress, you are not compelled to follow my or anyone else’s understanding but you need to grasp the essence of what is being conveyed from ancient times in matters of faith.
Ibrahim says : you may want to correct this understanding. The Qur’an is not about the Prophet (pbuh) , the Qur’an contain revelations to the Prophet, exchanges between Allah(swt) and the angels, information about earlier events and prophets, as well as corrections for earlier revelations, and the commands of Allah (swt) as it was given to address various situations the Prophet had to endure in a period of 23 years.
** The Qur’an is more a guide and mercy for believers and warning and admonishment for the unbelievers. **
What was revealed to the Prophet is more than what is recorded as the Qur’an , this does not mean, the Qur’an, has missing parts, it means only what Allah (swt) willed had been compiled therein for mankind at large.
Ibrahim says: this turning around is your own doing in trying to reconcile your own understanding. The Qur’an is not recording the life of the Prophet! what it records is the revealed words from Allah (swt) with regards to how the Prophets had been guided aright in various circumstances and how Allah (swt) had been merciful to mankind and only desired that they (mankind) will be led aright serving Him alone and submitting out of gratitude NOT out of compulsion. .
The Qur’an is a completion of the revelations and fulfillment of earlier prophesies.
Allah (swt) conveyed
27: 76 ** Verily this Qur’an doth explain to the Children of Israel most of the matters in which they disagree. **
77 ** And it certainly is a Guide and Mercy to those who believe.**
78 Verily thy Lord will decide between them ** by His Decree:** and He is Exalted in Might All-Knowing.
79 So put thy trust in Allah: for thou art ** on (the Path of) manifest Truth.**
6: 83 That was the reasoning about Us which We gave to Abraham (to use) against his people:** We raise whom We will degree after degree: for thy Lord is full of wisdom and knowledge. **
Ibrahim says : well my brother, Allah (swt) says otherwise and Muslims should obey Allah (swt) as He alone knows best.
Kindly digest………..
12: 2 We have ** sent it down as an Arabic Qur’an in order that ye may learn wisdom.**
39: 27 We have put forth for men in this Qur’an ** every kind of Parable in order that they may receive admonition. **
28 (It is) a Qur’an in Arabic without any crookedness (therein):** in order that they may guard against Evil.
**
17: 89 And ** We have explained to man in this Qur’an every kind of similitude: yet the grater part of men refuse (to receive it) except with ingratitude! **
Ibrahim says: whereas the Prophets like all prophets were chosen to …….
17: 105 We sent down the (Qur’an) in Truth and in Truth has it descended: ** and We sent thee but to give Glad Tidings and to warn (sinners). **
106 (It is) a Qur’an which We have divided (into parts from time to time) ** in order that thou mightest recite it to men at intervals: We have revealed it by stages.**
Ibrahim says: hence the Qur’an is not about the Prophet or any man in particular !
Ibrahim says : this is a silly argument , Muslims do not study the hadiths to do silly things but to understand the following.
Prophetic guidance in various or specific circumstances
If anyone is under the impression that those who follow the hadith emulate the Prophet (pbuh) by trying to imitate him as conveyed in the hadiths that is their own doing. What Muslims try to emulate is his character and moral standards in addition to customs that embodies Islamic way of life.
Ibrahim says : This is your view based on your level of thinking. The Qur’an was rehearsed and given step by step at intervals for 23 years because it needed a chosen prophet to put it into practice, If you believed a person receiving the Qur’an in his arms is going to become a Muslim by reading it, that would be naïve since many non believers had read it and concluded that it had no guidance what so ever based on their level of thinking.
The Arabs had similar revelations ( torah/injeel) delivered to them by the Jews, that did not cause them to change or unite what caused the changes was the practical application of Allah(swt) teachings by a chosen man. Who amplified the message given in the Qur’an and brought the meandering/disbelieving hearts of the Arabs to judgment and compassion whereby they united to become Muslims.
This amplification and application of the Qur’anic messages is what we can consider as prophetic teachings. They are not equal to the Qur’an but without them much will not be understood. ( just like the current Arabs who are Christians who read the Qur’an but do not fully understand it )
Ibrahim says: agreed so long as it does not go against the Qur’an or prophetic guidance or create sectarians.
Ibrahim says No! in the sense that when you do it differently and you end up teaching others to do it your way contrary to what has been the established way as approved by Allah (swt) and practiced by the Prophet (pbuh) , you may misguide generations to come and that would amount to sin. So one must be considerate ad try not to misguide others. If you want to take a risk, let the risk be born by you alone , don’t teach others to follow suit.
The very reason why earlier generations ended up earning the wrath of Allah (swt) was because of this way of thinking that If it was close to or similar to , it was ok by the first guy and then after the rest went on and on till it was totally different from what was approved by Allah (swt)
Ibrahim says: No one can exactly emulate another, that would mean you cloned yourself, what one is to emulate are his good characters and mannerisms in dealing with one and other. His submission to Allah (swt), if at all that is possible, but as time passes this will get more and more difficult and these matters have already been prophesied .
Ibrahim says: can you tell me where you got this notion?
Ibrahim says: No, you cannot become a good person by just having the Qur’an , you can only become a good person when you have the desire to become one.
Being a good person and submitting to Allah (swt) are two different matters. There are good Hindus, Jews and Christians too, but they do not submit to Allah (swt) and their fate is for Allah (swt) to decide and they cannot be equal to one who submits as commanded by Allah (swt) and followed the ways of the Prophet.
Ibrahim says: Right and Wrong. Right in the sense that the jews and Christians combined the Torah with Prophetic teachings with kings records and works of saints and preachers, which contradicted each other in the current Bible
Wrong in the sense that the Jews did alter the torah itself to suit their way of life, eventually causing it to disappear and then after recompiling it out of memory, where it became confused in many ways.
Ibrahim says: as far as I know scholars use both sources the primary source being the Qur’an and the secondary source being the hadiths as well as comments and actions from other earlier scholars . This is how the judiciary decides what to do in the secular world.
You see Allah (swt) conveyed …………..
24: 54 ** Say: “Obey Allah and obey the Apostle:** but if ye turn away he is only responsible for the duty placed on him and ye for that placed on you. ** If ye obey him ye shall be on right guidance.** The Apostle’s duty is only to preach the clear (Message).”
Thus Muslims are fond of finding out his guidance in various circumstances and using them to teach others.
And this was the sunnah as conveyed in the hadiths
Let us read
Al-Tirmidhi Hadith Hadith 175 Narrated by Anas ibn Malik
Allah’s Messenger (peace be upon him) said to me: My son, if you are in a position to pass your morning and evening keeping your heart free from malice against anyone, then act according to it (this high ideal).** He then said: My son, and that is my Sunnah and he who loves my Sunnah, in fact loves me and he who loves me, will be with me in Paradise.**
Transmitted by Tirmidhi.
Ibrahim says: here you may want to note, what Allah (swt) said …….
2: 98 Whoever is an enemy to Allah and His angels ** and apostles ** to Gabriel and Michael Lo! Allah is an enemy to those who reject faith.
33: 56 Allah and His angels send blessings on the Prophet: ** O ye that believe! send ye blessings on him and salute him with all respect** .
3: 31 ** Say:** “If ye do love Allah ** follow me: ** Allah will love you ** and forgive you your sins ** for Allah is Oft-Forgiving Most Merciful.”
Sunan of Abu-Dawood Hadith 3585 Narrated by Mu’adh ibn Jabal
Some companions of Mu’adh ibn Jabal said: When the Apostle of Allah (peace be upon him) intended to send Mu’adh ibn Jabal to the Yemen, he asked: How will you judge when the occasion of deciding a case arises? ** He replied: I shall judge in accordance with Allah’s Book. He asked: (What will you do) if you do not find any guidance in Allah’s Book? He replied: (I shall act) in accordance with the Sunnah of the Apostle of Allah (peace be upon him). He asked: (What will you do) if you do not find any guidance in the Sunnah of the Apostle of Allah (peace be upon him) and in Allah’s Book? He replied: I shall do my best to form an opinion and I shall spare no effort. The Apostle of Allah (peace be upon him) then patted him on the breast and said: Praise be to Allah Who has helped the messenger of the Apostle of Allah to find something which pleases the Apostle of Allah.**
Ibrahim says : here itself lies evidence that the hadiths where in circulation as the sunnah , even in the presence of the Prophet (pbuh)
Sahih Muslim Hadith Hadith 1420 Narrated by Abu Mas’ud al-Ansari
Allah’s Messenger (peace be upon him) said: The one who is most versed in Allah’s Book should act as Imam for the people, but if they are equally versed in reciting it, then** the one who has most knowledge regarding Sunnah;** if they are equal regarding the Sunnah, then the earliest one to emigrate; if they emigrated at the same time, then the earliest one to embrace Islam. No man must lead another in prayer where (the latter) has authority, or sit in his place of honour in his house, without his permission. Ashajj in his narration used the word “age” in place of “Islam”
Sunan of Abu-Dawood Hadith 4273 Narrated by Umm Salamah, Ummul Mu’minin
The Prophet (peace be upon him) said: ** Disagreement will occur** at the death of a caliph and a man of the people of Medina will come flying forth to Mecca. Some of the people of Mecca will come to him, bring him out against his will and swear allegiance to him between the Corner and the Maqam. An expeditionary force will then be sent against him from Syria but will be swallowed up in the desert between Mecca and Medina. When the people see that, the eminent saints of Syria and the best people of Iraq will come to him and swear allegiance to him between the Corner and the Maqam. Then there will arise a man of Quraysh whose maternal uncles belong to Kalb and send against them an expeditionary force which will be overcome by them, and that is the expedition of Kalb. Disappointed will be the one who does not receive the booty of Kalb. He will divide the property, ** and will govern the people by the Sunnah of their Prophet (peace be upon him) and establish Islam on Earth.** He will remain seven years, then die, and the Muslims will pray over him.
Sunan of Abu-Dawood Hadith 4590 Narrated by Irbad ibn Sariyah
AbdurRahman ibn Amr as-Sulami and Hujr ibn Hujr said: We came to Irbad ibn Sariyah who was among those about whom the following verse was revealed: "Nor (is there blame) on those who come to thee to be provided with mounts, and when thou saidst: “I can find no mounts for you.” We greeted him and said: We have come to see you to give healing and obtain benefit from you. Al-Irbad said: One day the Apostle of Allah (peace be upon him) led us in prayer, then faced us and gave us a lengthy exhortation at which the eyes shed tears and the hearts were afraid. A man said:** Apostle of Allah! It seems as if it were a farewell exhortation, so what injunction do you give us? ** He then said: I enjoin you to fear Allah, and to hear and obey even if it be an Abyssinian slave, ** for those of you who live after me will see great disagreement. You must then follow my sunnah and that of the rightly-guided caliphs.** Hold to it and stick fast to it. Avoid novelties, for every novelty is an innovation, and every innovation is an error.
Sunan of Abu-Dawood Hadith 2879 Narrated by Abdullah ibn Amr ibn al-'As
The Prophet (peace be upon him) said: ** Knowledge has three categories; anything else is extra; a precise verse, or an established sunnah (practice), or a firm obligatory duty.**
Ibrahim says: This is fallacy! Firstly the hadiths were around from the time of the Prophet, each distant person learnt from the other by means of hadiths. A few famous narrators who may have had their own collections could be Abdullah the son of Umar, Anas the son of Malik, Umm al-Mumininin Aishah, Jabir ibn Abdullah , Abu Hurayrah and Abu Said al-Khudri all of whom transmitted over a thousand sayings of the Prophet.
What may have materialized is that Imam Bukhari and others compiled all of these works as well from others in one compilation as such their works have become famous and the original collections not in use.
Ibrahim says: the Shia were in opposition with Islam as such they primarily collected or wrote down what was their teachings for themselves , hence it will naturally differ from Islam and oppose Islam.
Ibrahim says If what was taught had been practiced why would they be a need for a new revelation or another prophet?
Ibrahim says: Exactly and when you ask them they will tell you they are following the Prophet and if you try to find out how the Prophet knew it or taught it, it will lead you to the hadith not the Qur’an !
Ibrahim says for your info the current edition of the scrolls of Ibrahim (pbuh) are called Vedas and maintained by hindus, kindly observe, if they are doing their prayer like Muslims EVEN THOUGH THEIR TEMPLES FACE THE DIRECTION OF MAKKAH
Ibrahim says ;sorry, this is silly.
Ibrahim says: Do you realize, even after all these verses, you are still saying that you learnt your prayer from a prophet and not what the Qur’an taught! So why argue the Qur’an has given all the details for the correct observance of prayer?
The method of prayer was taught by the Prophet as taught to him by the angel, so the current Prophet guide the current Muslims and that is how we learnt how to worship Allah (swt) and that may be verified only with the hadiths.
Ibrahim says: O brother, when one person relayed a message concerning what the prophet said to another or did, it is a HADITH. Which means it is by way of hadith that Islam spreads in Arabia at the time of the Prophet himself. Hence Hadith existed from the beginning.
I repeat current compilations that have become famous were compiled by later generations but earlier compilations had existed prior to current compilations.
Ibrahim says: Do you understand why? Does it not occur to you the Qur’an itself has not been completed whilst the Prophet was still receiving the revelations and what the Prophet says may be misconstrued by others as the Qur’an when it gets recorded down? Do you not realize that some shias believe the Qur’an must be three times bigger in size from the current Qur’an because they believe Ali (ra) recorded down everything the prophet said and did?
Ibrahim says: Kindly quote verse number for above verse.
Allah swt revealed
30: 58 Verily We have coined for mankind in the Quran all kinds of similitudes; ** and indeed if thou comest unto them with a miracle, those who disbelieve would verily exclaim: Ye are but tricksters! **
3: 183 (The same are) those who say: Lo! Allah hath charged us that we believe not in any messenger until he bring us an offering which fire (from heaven) shall devour. Say (unto them, O Muhammad):** Messengers came unto you before me with miracles, and with that (very miracle) which ye describe. Why then did ye slay them? ** (Answer that) if ye are truthful!
184 And if they deny thee, even so did they deny messengers who were before thee,** who came with miracles** and with the Psalms and with the Scripture giving light.
Ibrahim says: On the other hand miracles as revealed in the hadiths were witnessed by believers in their daily course of life, not something that was used to convince them into belief but such that strengthen their faith and resolve when they were under trial.
Ibrahim says: A hadith does not necessarily originate from one person, same hadiths may be repeated over and over again by others too. The compilers removed such repetitions and took the words of those that had unblemished reputation in accuracy of transmission as compared to those that had memory lapses. Even here where some variations occurred or a hadth was unique it was also preserved and presented for our study.
Kindly visit the web sites Brother Fact Finder had posted and learn more about how hadiths are to be understood.
Allah (swt) knows best.
Was salaam
Ibrahim
** To live in the present is wisdom to live for the present is FOLLY **
PA, again, if the presenter himself isn’t worth his word, I doubt if I would ever listen to what he is saying.
I do not ask for you to create multinicks, but do tell me how I am supposed to believe you (someone who flirts on the net, hits below the belt and has a habit of throwing dirty puns left and right…) as opposed to the people who I see with me in daily life. Their lives speak of righteousness. Each action of theirs are in line with the Quran and the Sunnah.. and the clean and pure views they hold are a good indication of what Islam has taught them.
Your views on Islam however have made you into a flirt. Food for thought as you say.
Read above.. If the message isn’t good enough to influence the messenger, then I think i’d avoid such a message.
Yes true, but since you’re claiming that the majority is wrong to believe in the Ahadith, I’d like you to actually prove it rather than making big statements.
PA.. tsk tsk you’re doing it again. This isn’t physcology grade 2. We’re discussing religion and how it relates to general human thinking. YOU ARE THE ONE WITH THE MESSAGE AND THE TRUTH. Please prove it to be true. When you preach you dont sit home and expect people to come to you for advice. We’re all misguided and we want you to remove our misconceptions so that we may follow the true islam.
You are so true in your following in Islam and I’d like you to guide me… yes! please.. If Imam bukhari can spend years collecting and validating ahadith, then maybe to prove him wrong you can do the same.
that is if you hvae the interest of Islam and its followers at your heart…
BTW PA, you might find me rude and judgemental.. but the fact is you’ve made too many comments regarding Bukhari and Co., and have questioned their ability, so be prepared that your religious integrity will be questioned as well.
I try and concentrate on what you have to say rather than how you say it.
It appears we may not have a discussion as you continue to chase the ad hominem fallacy.
Even the Qur’an has described the same about the people of Nuh.
[Hud 11:27] But the chiefs of those who disbelieved from among his people said: We do not consider you but a mortal like ourselves, and we do not see any have followed you but those who are the meanest of us at first thought and we do not see in you any excellence over us; nay, we deem you liars
PakistaniAbroad: These people were foolish enough to try and argue using fallacies pointing out his shortcomings rather than the shortcomings of his argument or his message.
If I were to approach it the same way i’d start pointing out Bukhari’s slave trade and how he didn’t work but thrived of that trade and kept laundees etc. but that’s not the line of argument. It’s his compilations which are basically propagation of unverified accounts. He couldn’t have met the people two or more generations old hence he relied on other people’s word without knowing them. This bothers me. But then again maybe he should be believed because he was a more pious guy cuz he never flirted on the net.
Chalo, all i mean to say is, if you're going to discord someone who has put in a lot of effort for Islam, you'll have to put in an equal or a lot more effort. Challenging scholars who spent a lifetime in the compilation of Ahadith is very serious, hence if you wish to make that claim.. then you'll have to reconcile your attitude and beliefs to something that people will take seriously.
You had put forth good points in the past, but after looking more deeply into how Ahadith are compiled and hwo a lot of Ahadith (if nothing else.. in a religious sense) do make me a better and kinder person, i find it in the best interest of myself and Islam that I continue to give due importance to the sayings of the Prophet(SAW). So if you'll challenge that our compilations today are just fabrications, it will take a serious effort.. a few discussions on the net wont cut it.
.. and lets not use fancy latin words.. ermm my latin isn't all that! It is only human nature to see if the message has inspired the messenger or not.
[This message has been edited by ammarr (edited May 11, 2002).]