why !!! give one good reason

Society Religion & Philosophy
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Re: why !!! give one good reason

This is from al-islam.org
Muawiyah not only fought Imam Ali, he cursed Imam Ali as well. Furthermore,he did force/make everybody to curse Ali (AS). To prove it, we begin withSahih Muslim: Narrated Sa'd Ibn Abi Waqqas:
Muawiyah, the son of Abu Sufyan, give order to Sa'd, and told him: "What prevents you that you are refraining from cursing Abu Turab (nickname of Ali)?" Sa'd replied: "Don't you remember that the Prophet said three things about (the virtue of) Ali? So I will never curse Ali."
Sunni reference: Sahih Muslim, Chapter of Virtues of Companions, Section of Virtues of Ali, Arabic, v4, p1871, Tradition #32.
For the English version of Sahih Muslim, see Chapter CMXCVI, p1284,Tradition #5916

Below is more references in Sahih Muslim about Sunnah cursing Imam Ali(AS), to prove that people were urged/forced to curse Ali in public,otherwise they would face a costly sentence. It is narrated on theauthority of Abu Hazim that:
The Governor of Medina who was one of the members of the house of Marwan called Sahl Ibn Sa'd, and ordered him to curse Ali. But Sahl refused to do so. The governor said: "If you don't want to curse Ali, just say God curse Abu Turab (the nickname of Ali)." Sahl said: "Ali did not like any name for himself better than Abu Turab, and Ali used to become very happy when somebody would call him Abu Turab."
Sunni reference: Sahih Muslim, Chapter of Virtues of Companions, Section of Virtues of Ali, Arabic version, v4, p1874, Tradition #38.
One of the ugliest innovations that started during the reign of Muawiyahwas that Muawiyah himself, and through his order to his Governors, theyused to insult Imam Ali (AS) during the Sermons in the Mosques. This waseven done on the pulpit of the mosque of the Prophet in Medina in front ofthe grave of the Prophet Muhammad (May Allah bless him and his Progeny),so that even the dearest Companions of the Prophet (PBUH&HF), and Imam Ali(AS), his family and his near relatives used to hear these swears withtheir ears.
Sunni references :- History of al-Tabari, v4, p188- History of Ibn Kathir, v3, p234; v4, p154- al-Bidayah wa al-Nihayah, v8, p259; v9, p80
On insulting Ali Ibn Abi Talib and cursing him during the Umayah periodstarting in Muawiyah's reign, it is reported that: "Ali Ibn Abi Talib (ra) was cursed on the pulpits (manabir) of the east and west...", during the time of Muawiyah.
Sunni reference: Mu'jam al-Buldan, al-Hamawi, v5, p38
In her letter, Umm Salama, the wife of the Prophet (PBUH&HF) wrote to Muawiyah: "...You are cursing Allah and His messenger on your minbar, and that is because you are cursing Ali Ibn Abi Talib and whomever loves him, and I am a witness that Allah and His messengerloved him." But no one paid any attention to what she said.
Sunni reference: al-Aqd al-Fareed, v2, p300

Add to this the martyrdom of Hujr ibn Adi(RA) pious companion of Prophet(saw) who was killed simply for refusing to curse Ali(as)so much so that Ayesha(r) and Abdullah ibn Umar(ra)even criticized Muawiyah for this act
Let me add if you think they are all shia writers in taqqiyah in think whatever the hell you like but the fact **remains that these events are pretty wellrecorded in history**
Almost all western authors on this subject have also recorded this

I think I should say goodby to this nick.
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Re: why !!! give one good reason

I am sure no sunni muslim will ever curse Ali(as)
but Muawiyah ibn Abusufyan gave this order

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Re: why !!! give one good reason

whoop di dooo

Muawiyah and Abusing Imam Ali (AS)

[email protected] wrote in message [email protected]…

It is the well-known fact in the history that Muawiyah fought Imam Ali

It is also a well-known fact also that Ali's son, al-Husayn -- Allah be well-pleased with both of them -- accepted reconciliation with Muawiya and gave him his pledge (bay`a) as narrated by al-Bukhari in his Sahih.

The rightly-guided caliph, Umar ibn Abd al-`Aziz said: “Those from whose blood Allah has kept our hands exempt, we shall not soil with it our tongues.”
The Prophet said – Allah bless and greet him: “None of you should come to me with anything (negative) about any of my Companions for I do not want to go out to you except with a clear heart.”

Narrated by Abu Dawud, al-Tirmidhi, and Ahmad. This is one of the hadiths that those who mumble about the Fitna hate to hear. I heard from my shaykh the following rule: When lions fight, street dogs keep quiet.

Sahih Muslim: > > Narrated Sa’d Ibn Abi Waqqas: > > Muawiyah, the son of Abu Sufyan, give order to Sa’d, and told him: > “What prevents you that you are refraining from cursing Abu Turab > (nickname of Ali)?” Sa’d replied: “Don’t you remember that the >Prophet > said three things about (the virtue of) Ali? So I will never curse > Ali.”

Your “Sunni references” are always half-true because you never mention the Sunni understanding for them.

Imam al-Nawawi said: “The ulamas said: Any hadith that appear to refer to intra-Sahaba enmity is interpreted figuratively. In this hadith there is nothing that states that Muawiya actually ordered Sad to curse Ali, but he only asked him for the reason why he refrained from cursing him: was it Godwariness? in which case, well done; or fear? etc. It may be that Sad was observed among a group that cursed Ali, but he himself abstained from it although unable to reprimand them, then they were subsequently reprimanded, and Muawiya asked him this question. Another possible interpretation is: What prevented you from proving `Ali wrong in his opinion and ijtihad, and tell people the rightness and correctness of our position and ijtihad?”

Below is more references in Sahih Muslim about Sunnah cursing Imam Ali >(AS), to prove that people were urged/forced to curse Ali in public, >otherwise they would face a costly sentence. It is narrated on the >authority of Abu Hazim that: > > The Governor of Medina who was one of the members of the house of > Marwan called Sahl Ibn Sa’d, and ordered him to curse Ali. But >Sahl > refused to do so. The governor said: “If you don’t want to curse >Ali, > just say God curse Abu Turab (the nickname of Ali).” Sahl said: >“Ali > did not like any name for himself better than Abu Turab, and Ali >used > to become very happy when somebody would call him Abu Turab.” > >Sunni reference: Sahih Muslim, Chapter of Virtues of Companions, Section
The one who gave that order is not a Companion of the Prophet – Allah bless and greet him – nor what you call “Sunnah cursing Imam Ali” but a member of a fitna group about whom Abu Hurayra said: “By the One in Whose hand is my soul, there will soon come a time upon people when the flock of sheep will be dearer to its owner than all the house of Marwan.” Imam Malik narrates it in al-Muwatta’. There are several other statements by Abu Hurayra – Allah be well-pleased with him – to that effect, which I will elaborate upon in the forthcoming series on him insha Allah.

http://www.sunnah.org/msaec/articles/shia2.htm

In one post you slander Abu Huraira and in the other post you take hadith attributed to him as a defence for your own misfortunes and evil deeds and justification thereof?

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Re: why !!! give one good reason

under certain terms and he never kept any of them.....back to history books

[quote]

Narrated by Abu Dawud, al-Tirmidhi, and Ahmad. This is one of the hadiths that those who mumble about the Fitna hate to hear. I heard from my shaykh the following rule: When lions fight, street dogs keep quiet.

[/quote]

okay if someone kills a companion of the Prophet(saw) what are we supposed to do? sing his praises

[quote]

Your "Sunni references" are always half-true because you never mention the Sunni understanding for them.

[/quote]

aka...coverup

[quote]

Imam al-Nawawi said: "The ulamas said: Any hadith that appear to refer to intra-Sahaba enmity is interpreted figuratively. In this hadith there is nothing that states that Muawiya actually ordered Sad to curse Ali, but he only asked him for the reason why he refrained from cursing him: was it Godwariness? in which case, well done; or fear? etc. It may be that Sad was observed among a group that cursed Ali, but he himself abstained from it although unable to reprimand them, then they were subsequently reprimanded, and Muawiya asked him this question. Another possible interpretation is: What prevented you from proving `Ali wrong in his opinion and ijtihad, and tell people the rightness and correctness of our position and ijtihad?"

[/quote]

Sa'd (ra) didnt curse because he was a early convert and well aware of qualities of Ali(as) he was not a Taliq like muawiyah

[quote]
In one post you slander Abu Huraira and in the other post you take hadith attributed to him as a defence for your own misfortunes and evil deeds and justification thereof
[/quote]

when did I slander him?

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Re: why !!! give one good reason

And how do you know that? Spare me the fabricated hadiths.

[QUOTE]
okay if someone kills a companion of the Prophet(saw) what are we supposed to do? sing his praises
[/QUOTE]

Kills who? If you mean Hussain (ra) then it is the Kufi Shias who killed him.

[QUOTE]
Sa'd (ra) didnt curse because he was a early convert and well aware of qualities of Ali(as) he was not a Taliq like muawiyah
[/QUOTE]

He was NEVER ordered/asked to curse nor did Muawiyya curse.

[quote]
when did I slander him?
[/quote]

I meant 'you' in general terms not specifically you.

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Re: why !!! give one good reason

Das Reich, you gave a few ahadith making reference to Sahih Muslim under the section of Sahaba with a subsection Ali (RA). I could only find one hadith that you posted. Rest are all totally different.

Here they are:

Chapter 4: THE MERITS OF 'ALI B. ABI TALIB (ALLAH BE PLEASED WITH HIM)

Book 031, Number 5913:
Amir b Sa’d b. Abi Waqqas reporte (l on the authority of his father that Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) addressing 'All said: You are in the same position with relation to me as Aaron- (Harun) was in relation to Moses but with (this explicit difference) that there is no prophet after me. Sa’d said: I had an earnest desire to hear it directly from Sa’d, so I met him and narrated to him what (his son) Amir had narrated to me, whereupon he said: Yes, I did hear it. I said: Did you hear it yourself? Thereupon he placed his fingers upon his ears and said: Yes, and if not, let both my ears become deaf.

Book 031, Number 5914:
Sa’d b. Abi Waqqas reported that Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) left 'Ali b. Abi Talib behind him (as he proceeded) to the expedition of Tabuk, whereupon he ('Ali) said: Allah’s Messenger, are you leaving me behind amongst women 4nd children? Thereupon he (the Holy Prophet) said: Aren’t you satisfied with being unto me what Aaron was unto Moses but with this exception that there would be no prophet after me.

Book 031, Number 5915:
This hadith has been narrated. on the authority of Shu’ba with the same chain of transmitters. Amir b. Sa’d b. Abi Waqqas reported on the authority of his father that Muawiya b. Abi Sufyin appointed Sa’d as the Governor and said: What prevents you from abusing Abu Turab (Hadrat 'Ali), whereupon be said: It is because of three things which I remember Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) having said about him that I would not abuse him and even if I find one of those three things for me, it would be more dear to me than the red camelg. I heard Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) say about 'Ali as he left behind hrin in one of his campaigns (that was Tabuk). 'All said to him: Allah’s Messenger, you leave me behind along with women and children. Thereupon Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) said to him: Aren’t you satisfied with being unto me what Aaron was unto Moses but with this exception that there is no prophethood after me. And I (also) heard him say on the Day of Khaibar: I would certainly give this standard to a person who loves Allah and his Messenger and Allah and his Messenger love him too. He (the narrator) said: We have been anxiously waiting for it, when he (the Holy Prophet) said: Call 'Ali. He was called and his eyes were inflamed. He applied saliva to his eyes and handed over the standard to him, and Allah gave him victory. (The third occasion is this) when the (following) verse was revealed:" Let us summon our children and your children." Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) called 'Ali, Fitima, Hasan and Husain and said: O Allah, they are my family.

Book 031, Number 5916:
Sa’d reported Allah’s Apostle (may peace be upon him) as saying to 'Ali: Aren’t you satisfied with being unto me what Aaron was unto Moses?

Book 031, Number 5917:
Suhail reported on the authority of Abu Huraira that Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) said on the Day of Khaibar: I shall certainly give this standard in the hand of one who loves Allah and his Messenger and Allah will grant victory at his hand. Umar b. Khattab said: Never did I cherish for leadership but on that day. I came before him with the hope that I may be called for this, but Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) called 'Ali b. Abu Talib and he conferred (this honour) upon him and said: Proceed on and do not look about until Allah grants you victory, and 'Ali went a bit and then halted and did not look about and then said in a loud voice: Allah’s Messenger, on what issue should I fight with the people? Thereupon he (the Prophet) said: Fight with them until they bear testimony to the fact that there is no god but Allah and Muhammad is his Messenger, and when they do that then their blood and their riches are inviolable from your hands but what is justified by law and their reckoning is with Allah.

Book 031, Number 5918:
Sahl b. Sa’d reported that Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) said on the Day of Khaibar: I would certainly give this standard to a person at whose hand Allah would grant victory and who loves Allah and His Messenger and Allah and His Messenger love him also. The people spent the night thinking as to whom it would be given. When it was morning the people hastened to Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) all of them hoping that that would be given to him. He (the Holy Prophet) said: Where is 'Ali b. Abu Talib? They said: Allah’s Messenger, his eyes are sore. He then sent for him and he was brought and Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) applied saliva to his eyes and invoked blessings and he was all right, as if he had no ailment at all, and coraferred upon him the standard. 'Ali said: Allah’s Messenger, I will fight them until they are like us. Thereupon he (the Holy Prophet) said: Advance cautiously until you reach their open places, thereafter invite them to Islam and inform them what is obligatory for them from the rights of Allah, for, by Allah, if Allah guides aright even one person through you that is better for you than to possess the most valuable of the camels.

Book 031, Number 5919:
Salama b. Akwa’ reported that it was 'Ali whom Allah’s Apostle (may peace be upon him) left behind him (in the charge of his family and the Islamic State) on the occasion of the campaign of Khaibar, and his eyes were inflamed and he said: Is it for me to remain behind Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him)? So he went forth and rejoined Allah’s Apostle (may peace be upon him) and on the evening of that night (after which) next morning Allah granted victory. Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) said: I will certainly give this standard to a man whom Allah and His Messenger love. or he said: Who loves Allah or His Messenger and Allah will grant him victory through him, and, lo, we saw 'Ali whom we least expected (to be present on that occasion). They (the Companions) said: Here is 'Ali. Thereupon Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon hin) gave him the standard. Allah granted victory at his hand.

Book 031, Number 5920:
Yazid b. Hayyan reported, I went along with Husain b. Sabra and 'Umar b. Muslim to Zaid b. Arqam and, as we sat by his side, Husain said to him: Zaid. you have been able to acquire a great virtue that you saw Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) listened to his talk, fought by his side in (different) battles, offered prayer behind me. Zaid, you have in fact earned a great virtue. Zaid, narrate to us what you heard from Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him). He said: I have grown old and have almost spent my age and I have forgotten some of the things which I remembered in connection with Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him), so accept whatever I narrate to you, and which I do not narrate do not compel me to do that. He then said: One day Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) stood up to deliver sermon at a watering place known as Khumm situated between Mecca and Medina. He praised Allah, extolled Him and delivered the sermon and. exhorted (us) and said: Now to our purpose. O people, I am a human being. I am about to receive a messenger (the angel of death) from my Lord and I, in response to Allah’s call, (would bid good-bye to you), but I am leaving among you two weighty things: the one being the Book of Allah in which there is right guidance and light, so hold fast to the Book of Allah and adhere to it. He exhorted (us) (to hold fast) to the Book of Allah and then said: The second are the members of my household I remind you (of your duties) to the members of my family. He (Husain) said to Zaid: Who are the members of his household? Aren’t his wives the members of his family? Thereupon he said: His wives are the members of his family (but here) the members of his family are those for whom acceptance of Zakat is forbidden. And he said: Who are they? Thereupon he said: 'Ali and the offspring of 'Ali, 'Aqil and the offspring of 'Aqil and the offspring of Ja’far and the offspring of 'Abbas. Husain said: These are those for whom the acceptance of Zakat is forbidden. Zaid said: Yes.

Book 031, Number 5921:
This hadith has been narrated on the authority of Zaid b. Arqam through another chain of transmitters.

Book 031, Number 5922:
This hadith has been transmitted on the authority of Abu Hayyan but with this addition:" The Book of Allah contains right guidance, the light, and whoever adheres to it and holds it fast, he is upon right guidance and whosoever deviates from it goes astray.

Book 031, Number 5923:
Yazid b. Hayyan reported: We went to him (Zaid b. Arqam) and said to him. You have found goodness (for you had the honour) to live in the company of Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) and offered prayer behind him, and the rest of the hadith is the same but with this variation of wording that lie said: Behold, for I am leaving amongst you two weighty things, one of which is the Book of Allah, the Exalted and Glorious, and that is the rope of Allah. He who holds it fast would be on right guidance and he who abandons it would be in error, and in this (hadith) these words are also found: We said: Who are amongst the members of the household? Aren’t the wives (of the Holy Prophet) included amongst the members of his house hold? Thereupon he said: No, by Allah, a woman lives with a man (as his wife) for a certain period; he then divorces her and she goes back to her parents and to her people; the members of his household include his ownself and his kith and kin (who are related to him by blood) and for him the acceptance of Zakat is prohibited.

Book 031, Number 5924:
Sahl b. Sa’d reported that a person from the offspring of Marwan was appointed as the governor of Medina. He called Sahl b. Sa’d and ordered him to abuse All Sahl refused to do that. He (the governor) said to him: If you do not agree to it (at least) say: May Allah curse Abu Turab. Sahl said: There was no name dearer to All than Abu Turab (for it was given to him by the Holy Prophet himself) and he felt delighted when he was called by this name. He (the governor) said to him: Narrate to us the story of his being nanied as Abu Turab. He said: Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) came to the house of Fatima and he did not find 'Ali in the house; whereupon he said: Where is your uncle’s son? She said: (There cropped up something) between me and him which had annoyed him with me. He went out and did not rest here. Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) said to a person to find out where he was. He came and said: Allah’s Messenger, he is sleeping in the mosque. Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) came to him and found him lying in the mosque and saw that his mantle had slipped from his back and his back was covered with dust and Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) began to wipe it away from him (from the body of Hadrat 'Ali) saying: Get up, covered with dust; get up, covered with dust.

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/muslim/031.smt.html

I don’t find a single hadith that suggests that Ali (RA) was cursed or was told to be cursed, other than a hadith that says why he (RA) cannot be cursed.

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Re: why !!! give one good reason

sadiyah check historical ref. from Tabari or Ibn Kathir
numbers might be different due to different editions if you still think they are wrong email al-islam.org
or check any historical ref.from that time (except for taqi usmani's book, who is just an apologist) this is a known historical fact
also checkout incidents regarding the Martyrdom of Hujr ibn Adi(ra) and you will see why he and his six friends were killed

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Re: why !!! give one good reason

all the letters between muawiyah and hasan(as) are historical evidence

[QUOTE]

Kills who? If you mean Hussain (ra) then it is the Kufi Shias who killed him.

[/QUOTE]

never meant Hussain(as) but many other companions like Ammar(ra) and Muhammad ibn abubakr(ra)

[QUOTE]
I meant 'you' in general terms not specifically you
[/QUOTE]
.
sorry i misunderstood but the evidence is from many sources not just Abuhuraira

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Re: why !!! give one good reason

Maulana Sayyid Abul A'la Maudoodi in his book "Khilafat wa Mulukiyyat" cites several classical sources providing the reason behind the murder of Hujr bin Adi. Under the chapter 4 "the elimination of freedom of speech", he states:

"Hujr bin Adi was a pious companion of the Prophet (saws) and played a vital role in the correction of the Ummah. During Mu'awiya's reign when the custom of cursing Ali from the pulpit's of Mosques began, hearts of the Muslims were being bled dry but people bit their tongues fearing death. In Kufa Hujr bin Adi could not remain silent and he began to praise Ali (ra) and condemn Mu'awiya. Until Mughira remained the Governor of Kufa, he adopted a lenient attitude towards this, but when Ziyad's Governorship of Basra was extended to include Kufa, serious altercations arose. He would curse Ali (ra) during the khutba and Hujr would refute him. On one occasion he (Hujr) warned Ziyad for being late for Jumma prayers. Ziyad then arrested him along with twelve of his companions on false accusations of forming an opposition group to overthrow the Khalifa and was cursing the Khalifa. He also gathered witnesses to testify against them alleging that they claimed that khilafath was the exclusive right of the lineage of Ali ibne Abi Talib and further accused them of creating an uproar, throwing out the commander and of supportingAbu Turab Ali, of sending blessings upon him and hating his enemies. From amongst these witnesses, Qadi Shudhri's testimony was used. He later wrote to Mu'awiya that the blood and property of people who said they offered Salat, paid zakat, and performed Hajj and Umrah, preached right and declared that evil was haram, however if you want to kill them so be it, otherwise forgive them. The accused were sent to Mu'awiya and he sentenced them to death. A condition was placed that if they cursed Ali (ra) and showed their hatred to him they would be pardoned. They refused and Hujr saidI will not say that thing that will displease Allah'. Finally he and his seven companions were murdered. From amongst them Abdur Rahman bin Hassan was sent back to return with a written instruction that he be murdered in the worst possible manner, Ziyad buried him alive (Tarikh al Tabari, Volume 4 page 190 - 208, al Istiab by Ibn `Abdul Barr Vol I page 135, Tarikh by Ibn Athir Volume 3 page 234 - 242, al Bidayah al Nihaya by Ibn Kathir, Volume 8 page 50 -55j, Ibn Khaldoon Volume 3 page 13).

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Re: why !!! give one good reason

Check the bolded part and ponder what it says. Secondly there are some spelling mistakes in second Hadith. Not sure if they are made intentionally.

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Re: why !!! give one good reason

zer01, thank you for pointing it out. I still don't see ahadith preaching Muslims to start cursing. At most it is narrating an event or two where individuals may have been asked to curse Ali (RA), but they did not.

It's not like it says that all Muslims from past and present start cursing Ali (RA), God forbid.

In addition, I doubt that the spelling mistakes were made on purpose.

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Re: why !!! give one good reason

Why are you ignoring the other historical references I am giving you?
a pious companion of the Prophet(saw) is being martyred for not cursing Ali(as) and you still have doubts that it ever happened
It was a official decree from damascus the Ali(as) should be cursed from the pulpits
other ref
pg336-337 "Succession to Muhammad" by Wilfred madelung describes these events
pg 334 it is said ummayyads cursed abu turab(Ali) also on the day of arafat

pg366-367 History of Caliphate by Rasul Jafarian

SHM Jafari's book on shiaism
Hujr
and the other six were given a chance to save their lives if they
would publicly curse and denounce 'Ali. Mu'awiya's executioners
told them: "We are commanded to give you a chance
to save yourselves by denouncing 'Ali and cursing him; if you
refuse to do this we will kill you." Hujr and the other six with
him steadfastly replied : "By God, we will never do this." They
were thereupon beheaded. 98
98 Tabari; II, p. 140; Aghani; XVII, pp.92 f.; Baladhuri, IVA,
p.224

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Re: why !!! give one good reason

asked by who?

ek sawal
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Re: why !!! give one good reason

haha..again…i hate people like u who just cannot come out of their limited extremist views..huh…

my dear,i love hazrat ALI as any other shahaba..i will even killed my family if they curse(god forbidden) hazrat ALI…u r totally wrong concept of sunnies view of him…
i have not come accross any sunni book tht curses HAZRAT ALI…we sunnis love him and want to follow his bravery style of life…

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Re: why !!! give one good reason

meray bhai…i dont support shias killing in any condition…but on the other hand,i know y sunnis hate shias…and all this hateness is due to open cursing of shahabas…this is the ROOT CAUSE…ACCEPT IT

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Re: why !!! give one good reason

bhai saab, I don't have access to the books you've mentioned. I have access to Sahih Bukhari and Tafsir Ibn Kathir (a few others as well) at home, but not the other books you've stated.

If there's something from Tafsir Ibn Kathir, then please be kind enough to post it neatly.

Your last post (the one to which I replied to by looking up ahadith in Sahih Muslim) was such a mess. I have bad eyes, therefore, neatly spacing everything out would be helpful.

Just because it's said that such and such book says such and such is a little hard for me to grasp, especially on such a sensitive topic, unless I'm actually able to cross reference.

Anyway, at the end of the day Sunnis don't curse Ali (RA) or anyone else. It'd be an extremely serious sin to curse Ali (RA) or anyone else.

Captain1, my response was about the hadith (Book 031, Number 5924 ) that zer01 pointed out.

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Re: why !!! give one good reason

Hello all.

I am new to this forum, though I am very familiar with Pakistani and Islamic culture. I have friends who are Pakistani, of both sects, and I have known them for most of my life. Many of them are very liberal, open-minded and not very religious. Maybe that's why they're so content. Some of them even drink and eat pork.

Let me introduce myself. I am an American, a non-practicing liberal Jew, though I am conservative on some issues. I have also fought in the US Army in Iraq and got some good exposure to Islam (both good and bad). I was in Baghdad, Fallujah, Kirkuk, Tikrit, Mosul, Karbala, Najaf, and Basra. Did you know in Iraq they call to prayer 10 times a day? Wanna guess why?

Prior to and after Iraq, I researched a good deal on Islam, its history, its sects, and I know more about Islam, than I know about my parent's religion, but in the end all religions are typically the same.

I would first like to address Lajawab's laughable argument that "foreign agents", presumably "the Jews", are actually causing and inflaming sectarian violence in Iraq, Pakistan etc. The blame-Jew syndrome must be rampant on this forum, as it is rampant in Muslim minds. This statement is typical of a colonized mind who lives and leeches of Western wealth, too primitive and backwards to take responsiblilities for his own actions. It is understandable though, to an extent. But, not only that, but this statement is very offensive to me since I have seen Sunni barbarians murder innocent Shia women and children in Iraq. These Sunni terrorists are cowardly murderers who hide behind civilians. But let us humor, this Lajawab character, and his assinine comment, shall we? Let's say that what he says is true. Then tomorrow all of the males in his family will be killed, except for one, the females will be raped and their so-called honor will be vanquished, and then that one male will kill all the females, since honor killings is probably sanctioned by his primitive culture. Until that happens, since we, thankfully do not live in a society run by secret dictatatorial foreign agents, he has nothing to say.

Sorry to say that but this has to be said. Sunni animals in Iraq kill innocent people who happen to be mostly Shia, though some are also Sunni. GET THAT THROUGH YOUR THICK HEADS. It's not the Jews, not the Americans, but the Sunnis.

Many people on this forum are keen on saying that the Shias are very deserving of the killings they get in their mosques, for they "curse" some Sunni personalities, of whom I've done my research on as well, and safe to say they are not that great. To a non-Muslim, this means one thing and one thing only: That the primitive Sunni mind has not yet grasped the civilized concept of free speech, his brain has some evolving to do, and this is rather unfortunate. But this Sunni "logic" of "Shias deserve it" can work in another way as well. It can work for Israel too. Every Palestinian, man, woman, and child, deserves to die for they are encroaching on our Jewish holy land. God ordained it for Jews, not Palestinians. (Of course, I hope you understand, I don't truly believe this, I was merely applying Sunni "logic").

The Sunnis in Iraq are one of the most despicable people to walk the earth. They still think they are the majority. Maybe Sunni math is different, I don't know. Sorry to say this, but they are lower than cockroaches. I know it's wrong to feel this way, but I can't help myself. The Sunnis of Iraq thirst for Shia and Kurdish blood. Do you want to know why American soldiers respect Shias in Iraq, but not Sunnis? Because when we were fighting the Shia militias in Najaf and Karbala, the militias actually wore uniform. There is a level of respect there, soldier to soldier. I know to shoot him, he knows to shoot me. The Sunni insurgents have none of that, the cowards, that they are they hide behind civilians. Sickening behavior. America is too forgiving. We should have levelled Fallujah and Tikrit, so there wouldn't be any problems.

But why do Sunnis kill Shia? Because they are hateful and ignorant. They will continue to kill each other, kill Shia, and kill everyone else who does not conform to thier barbaric world view.

so who wann aplay..........
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Re: why !!! give one good reason

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH..loook who is talking.....cannot stop my laugh

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Re: why !!! give one good reason

All historical references are in bold

[quote]

Just because it's said that such and such book says such and such is a little hard for me to grasp, especially on such a sensitive topic, unless I'm actually able to cross reference.

[/quote]

I will scan the pages of the books they quote Ibn Kathir ,Tabari(give me some time) and many other references at the footnotes
The quote from Maulana Maudoudi's book is there as well

[quote]

Anyway, at the end of the day Sunnis don't curse Ali (RA) or anyone else. It'd be an extremely serious sin to curse Ali (RA) or anyone else.

[/quote]

I am not saying that the present day sunnis curse anyone
but this whole practice of cursing Sahaba was started by Umayyads

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Re: why !!! give one good reason

swellob, welcome to the forum, the first thing I'd like to tell you is stay away from generalization. On many occasions you called Sunnis with different names, that name calling won't take you anywhere, if you really are worthy of any respect than you have to be respectful of others, I don't want you to respect "terrorists" but then your definition of terrorist could be different than mine.

Let us all call names of ANYONE who has killed innocent people whether they call it "collateral" or "legitimate targets".

Let us all pray that ANYONE who kills innocent people gets humiliated in worst way in this world. Now be a bold person and say amen to that.

INSHA - wohh larki achi larki heye...
INSHA - wohh larki achi larki heye...