Why Gaza matters to Pakistanis

Society Pakistan & World Affairs
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Tell me one thing if there is a war between the UK and Russia, the UK and kenya...whose side will America take?

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That's the problem with Jihadi thinking. They wake up from their deep slumber AFTER they have been occupied.

Smart people on the other hand, make sure they do not get occupied in the first place. And if they lost one acre of their land, then learn the lesson and not repeat the same mistakes that resulted in the loss for the first acre.

There is a difference between Jinnah and Mufti-Palestine thinking. Mufti slept until his land was lost. Jinnah struggled much before and saved Pakistan. Mufti used terror, while Jinnah used constitution. Here lies the difference between a politically-smart Indian and a politically-dumb Middle Eastern.

1000 Things To Do When Bored
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Excellent question, stylobabe!

The Jail game
24

Re: Why Gaza matters to Pakistanis

One thing I love about he doesn't care for historical facts. In his mind everything he says is true. He forgets how Palestine was a british mandate and that the land of Palestine was handed over to the Jews without the consent of the people and basically stolen from the rightful semites of Palestine. The Palestinian people.

Firstly regarding people not caring about Pakistan. Again I am not sure where you people come up with these generalizations. I live in Darfur, a hellish place. Yet the average person here (99% muslim in Darfur) frankly believes the US is out to get Pakistan and that the Mumbai attacks were out to defame us.

As practice when I introduce myself to new Shiekhs, umdahs and fursha (traditional arab and massalit leadership), I first say I am Pakistan and at a later stage I am from the UN. You have no idea how large a change that is. I get treated like part of the family. Hell I have had breakfast with two of the Sultan's in Darfur just because I am Pakistani.

The average muslim who is politically aware looks up to Pakistan and the fact that we are so heavily screwed, they worry a great deal. The leadership may not. The people do.

Mister Sinister good to see another multi-nick around. Pakistan was not created on the land that belonged to another people. Partition had people move by choice. In Israel the Palestinian people were forcibly removed and the land occupied. West Bank, Gaza and the Golan Heights are legally defined as occupied territory. The US agrees with this as an official policy.

Regarding Darfur - people care. The UAE gave 1 million dollars to UNICEF for Darfur. WFP has its largest emergency operation in Darfur and Middle East countries regularly contribute. Pakistan contributes by providing a PFU, a Level 3 medical clinic, staff and military supplies. That enough?

NOTE: No nick twists allowed, did you forget that already?

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  1. Isn't there a rule on GS that you cannot be opening up a thread targeting another guppies remarks - you've listed my name in your remarks.

  2. No one is saying that we shouldn't feel sorry for the loss of innocent civilian life. We are talking about the concept of proportionality, the same concept used to illustrate the unfairness of the treatment towards the Gaza people currently. It is proportional to feel concerned about the plight of your own peoples' freedoms being taken away as you would feel about the same regarding a foreign population. I feel sorry for the Gazans. I feel sorry for the people of Swat and NWFP as well. However, I do not see that proportionality in other posters.

  3. No one is saying that the land was taken unfairly. And no one is arguing that it is natural for a muslim to be concerned about their Ummah. But aren't you concerned about the people of Swat right now - they're not part of your Ummah? Is it also not natural to be concerned when some segments of your Ummah turn rogue and then start hurting other parts of your Ummah - example suicide bombers and terrorist networks?

The idea is quite simple, really - we muslims are doing more harm to each other, and thereby allowing others to exploit our weaknesses. Instead of tolerating each other, we do not - we expect everyone to be and think like us. If you read namaz 5 times a day, good for you. If you don't smoke pot and you're not addicted to hashish good for you. If you don't want to be educated, then good for you. But then don't turn around and force an Islamic lifestyle on people, as is being done in Swat. And that too by the force of terror. We want to talk about looking towards the Prophet's example - he never behaved the way the Taliban and the Hammas do today. That wasn't his approach. And the problems the Ummah faced in those days was much worse than what we're facing today - most muslim nations are actually free to make their own rules and live by them. No one gave muslims a home back then, and his approach was not using military force first, which is how it is done now. No muslim is prepared to truly negotiate, as seen by Hamas' handling of this war. And Mohammed kept civilians out of the line of fire, when he was forced to go to war, which is not something the Hamas like to do. They live and operate out of masjids and schools and civilian neighborhoods. And Mohammed would not break pacts, the way Hamas did when they began bombing before the temporary truce was up. If they're not going to follow rules that they set, this discredits them, even if they're fighting for the rights of people.

What is happening in GAza is VERY sad, and even jewish people living abroad are commenting on the unfairness and severity of the Israeli response.

But they have a point. If anyone fired rockets from a neighboring country into yours, you would respond with full force, and we're seeing that right now in Pakistan's response to India. They are willing to move all their troops away from their own lands where foreign guerilla groups are making life for their own people a living hell to ward off an attack by India. I don't see Pakistan being criticized here for responding to an outside attack (Indians have already begun instigating attacks on the border). So, why are we blaming the Israelis for responding?

We have to understand one thing as muslims, otherwise, our future is completely dismal. We are not the only creations of God. Others, who may have different ideas about God and who may not believe in God at all, too have a right to exist and live peacefully. If you continue harassing these people and bothering them with threats and terror, then you're not winning anyone over to Islam. You're scaring people. People right now are completely terrified of Islam and people who follow the religion, and that's unfair to the rest of us who want to live a peaceful life as muslims. Warfare, is not the solution to the Ummah's security. The way to the Ummah's security is unity, economic opportunity for muslims (how many of you pseudo-CEO's out there actually hire muslims, for example?), educational opportunities for muslims (how many muslims in Pakistan have opened up schools that essentially rape a common man's income - education is only for the wealthy - is that Islam?), and equal rights to economic opportunity and civil human rights for women (i.e. it should not be ok to get away with sexually harassing/raping women, not giving them jobs because of their gender, paying them less because of their gender, not educating them because of their gender, not allowing them to voice their political opinions because of their gender).

I don't know if you realize really how much homework muslims need to do to fix their own nations before they go in and start challenging foreign powers to a battle of greedy pride over land.

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Thats not true SB, whenever any earth quake ,flood comes,Saudia,UAE,Qatar,Turkey,Iran are the first to help us,provide billions of dollars,give us oil on lower rates and very friendly :)

Guest of the Week- Jiia
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As most of the mods know by now, I am a prick.

[quote]
2. No one is saying that we shouldn't feel sorry for the loss of innocent civilian life. We are talking about the concept of proportionality, the same concept used to illustrate the unfairness of the treatment towards the Gaza people currently. It is proportional to feel concerned about the plight of your own peoples' freedoms being taken away as you would feel about the same regarding a foreign population. I feel sorry for the Gazans. I feel sorry for the people of Swat and NWFP as well. However, I do not see that proportionality in other posters.
[/quote]

That is an assumption on your part. You have no idea how a person feels and just because they don't post outrage or an emotional response to one issue doesn't mean they don't feel the same pain or more rather. No one can be held accountable for what you assume. That is just unfair.

[quote]
3. No one is saying that the land was taken unfairly. And no one is arguing that it is natural for a muslim to be concerned about their Ummah. But aren't you concerned about the people of Swat right now - they're not part of your Ummah? Is it also not natural to be concerned when some segments of your Ummah turn rogue and then start hurting other parts of your Ummah - example suicide bombers and terrorist networks?
[/quote]

Who says people aren't? Have you seen anybody on these forums defending the killing of the average Pakistani? Have you seen people praising what is happening in Swat? Rather the thread about the girls school has people irritated as **** and pretty upset. The difference is that their emotions are genuine. You and Poshy here use it for point scoring.

[quote]
The idea is quite simple, really - we muslims are doing more harm to each other, and thereby allowing others to exploit our weaknesses. Instead of tolerating each other, we do not - we expect everyone to be and think like us. If you read namaz 5 times a day, good for you. If you don't smoke pot and you're not addicted to hashish good for you. If you don't want to be educated, then good for you. But then don't turn around and force an Islamic lifestyle on people, as is being done in Swat. And that too by the force of terror. We want to talk about looking towards the Prophet's example - he never behaved the way the Taliban and the Hammas do today.
[/quote]

Who is saying what they are doing is Islamic? Also please don't equate the Taliban and Hamas. They are worlds a part.

[quote]
That wasn't his approach. And the problems the Ummah faced in those days was much worse than what we're facing today - most muslim nations are actually free to make their own rules and live by them. No one gave muslims a home back then, and his approach was not using military force first, which is how it is done now. No muslim is prepared to truly negotiate, as seen by Hamas' handling of this war. And Mohammed kept civilians out of the line of fire, when he was forced to go to war, which is not something the Hamas like to do. They live and operate out of masjids and schools and civilian neighborhoods. And Mohammed would not break pacts, the way Hamas did when they began bombing before the temporary truce was up. If they're not going to follow rules that they set, this discredits them, even if they're fighting for the rights of people.
[/quote]

sigh If you believe Hamas fights out of hospitals, I guess you believed Iraq had WMD. Believing blindly what the media says is folly. Secondly regarding civilians, an Eye for an eye is a principle equally practiced during the times of the Prophet. They target the civilains of Gaza their own are fair game.

Regarding the Truce, you know that Israel broke it first by forcing more settlements in the West Bank right?

[quote]
What is happening in GAza is VERY sad, and even jewish people living abroad are commenting on the unfairness and severity of the Israeli response.
[/quote]

And yet you question why pakistani's feel the pain. How hypocritical.

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Very comforting. :)

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Re: Why Gaza matters to Pakistanis

As Gazans do not really have much of an international propaganda influence the way the Israelis do because of the media exposure, the superior command of a sophisticated appearance that seeminly justifies their activities as ethical (they wear suits and they're well groomed, and the GAzans look haggered, the Israelis can't possibly be doing anything unethical), and the fact that the Israelis have the Holocaust behind them (how can someone who gets abused go on to abuse any one else - neverminding the fact that abused orphans do it all the time when they grow up and therefore, this is a natural human phenomenon), the Gazans have to be more smart.

If there are people setting up settlements on your land, then there is a better way than launching mortars to get the international attention. Because if you shoot the mortar, no one is going to feel pity for you - the opposing side can easily say "look they're killing our people, how can we tolerate it?"

Furthermore, if the muslims want proportionate responses, how do you explain the proportion of civilians setting up an illegal settlement, to firing off mortars onto civilians who were NOT the ones setting up those settlements.

And another question - why wouldn't you just fire the mortars at the illegal settlements? Why fire at someone else who may actually disapprove of the illegal settlements - the Jewish population is quite divided on the illegal settlement issue - many Jews I meet don't like the idea that the airspace, waterspace, etc in Gaza is controlled by the Israelis.

Its like this. I don't know if you watch Jon Stewart, but he has this comedy show on cable in the US. He's Jewish. He had another Jewish reporter on his show some days ago, and they were talking about the Israeli and Gazan war, and Jon was saying how he can't believe no one in the American government will criticize Israel for what its doing.

Now here's the example. Hitting a mortar on innocent civilians in Israel in return for OTHER civilians illegally settling within your boundaries, is no different than murdering Jon Stewart because he's a civilian jew because some Jewish people have decided to set up camp in your local mosque in order to protest against the presence of muslims in the area.

Its not proportional right?

Hamas doesn't think through its tactics - they're not very smart people actually. And now their irrational and poorly planned maneuvers of mortar launching - which might have destroyed how much property and taken how many lives? - is now leading to a death toll of 860 + last time I checked. I don't know about you, but that's not very smart planning. And I don't support stupidity. Yet the muslim world is so blind and so fueled by their passion that they don't stop and think - lets step back for a minute, think this through, and figure out an EFFECTIVE way to end the Israel-Palestinian problems, that would result in least civilian death. No one is doing that. No one. Its sick. We'd rather see mass casualties than try to just settle this issue once and for all, even if it means some concessions to the Israelis. Thousands of deaths is worth the idea of not having to acknowledge Israel as a state? Does that seem right to you? No thank-you, that's not what my life costs, and I think its preposterous that the muslim world would deem it fit to make that decision about my life or any other muslim life. Maybe that's why God is punishing us so much - we've stopped caring about our own people - all we care about is a sliver of land here, and a sliver of land there, when clearly God tried to resolve this issue a long time ago by clearly letting us know the Jurusalem is not longer our city, but that Mecca is. And we have Mecca. And we have Medina. Why are we running after Jurusalem? One of the senior Hamas leaders was killed recently, and his statement was something along the lines of how its sinful that the Jews have Jurusalem and that its an offense in the eyes of God and how Jurusalem should belong to Muslims.

If you seriously believe the Hamas hogwash about boo-hoo we're trying to preserve the Palestinian lives - its all BS. What they're really after is some delusion that they'll win some palace in heaven if they capture Jurusalem - that's why they can never negotiate well with the Israelis, because they're not willing to settle for anything less than having all of present day Israel for the Palestinians and kicking all the Jews out back to Europe.

Those days are gone, and that approach is completely unrealistic. The fact that muslims around the world share in this delusion is simply nothing less than SCARY.

smiley wala thread!
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This is the thinking taught to them by Prophet Muhammad. Are you insulting the Prophet Muhammad here?

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A fair point, to be sure; rocket attacks are an act of war, and Israel has a right to defend itself. The problem is that Israel’s blockade of Gaza is also an act of war, and Palestinians have the same right of self-defense. To focus only on the rockets coming into Israel is like describing the Battle of Britain as “British planes attacking German planes”; it’s not technically inaccurate, but as a description it is incomplete to the point of complete distortion. When we are asked “what would you do if rockets from Canada were landing in Minnesota” we should also ask “what would you do if a foreign power - or two foreign powers, acting in cooperation – had cut off all access to your country and was slowly starving your population in order to compel you to get rid of your elected government?”

Ending the siege has been Hamas’ main and constant demand. When the truce began on June 19th Israel permitted increased importation of food, but still only to about 20% of normal levels. The UN’s Special Rapporteur on the Right to Food, Robert Falk, has reported levels of hunger inside Gaza that rival those of the poorest sub-Saharan nations and has called the Israeli siege a “crime against humanity.” In November, Israel launched two military attacks that effectively ended the truce and led to the resumption of rocket attacks; nonetheless in December Hamas offered to extend the truce if Israel would only lift the siege. Israel was not interested; thereafter Hamas increased the intensity of the attacks, culminating in a barrage the week of Christmas that prompted the initiation of Operation Cast Lead (although, as I have pointed out in an earlier post, that operation had been planned for months).

The point of the siege all along was to inflict misery on Gaza in order to turn them against their government, an act of collective punishment designed to turn Gazans against their government.** In 2006 Dov Weisglass, an adviser to Ehud Olmert, was quoted in The Guardian explaining the plan: “the idea is to put the Palestinians on a diet.”** The technical name for a strategy of imposing fear and misery on a people until they turn against their government is “terrorism”; to repeat myself, Palestinians have the same right of self-defense as Israelis. Nor is the blockade Israel’s only act of aggression in Gaza. Throughout the period since the supposed withdrawal, Israel has launched thousands of artillery and rocket attacks into Gaza, along with periodic military operations. In the four years prior to Operation Cast Lead, those attacks resulted in 1,339 deaths among Gaza’s people. How would we Americans react to those figures, or their proportional equivalents?

http://www.paklinks.com/gs/world-affairs/308069-israel-gaza-some-wrong-arguments.html

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This is truly awful for you to bring in Mohammad pbuh to prove your point. You think Hammas's leadership is the reincarnation of sahaba? Wow? man you take the cake. If this is the thinking among Hamas supporters, then no wonder Hamas loses big time.

PCG has said it aptly and I'll quote

Read it, understand it, and then cry at your excuse of dropping Mohammad pbuh's name to support a 21st century group of politically and militarily dumb group.

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What kind of correlation is that? When did Prophet Mohammad PBUH teach people to stay silent until occupied?

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:rotfl:

I do not know why, but whenever I read your posts I just start laughing. I must thank you for your entertaining and humorous posts. But yes, Hamas is following the Sunnah of Prophet Muhammad and anyone with knowledge of history knows this. Only those ignorant of history such as yourself would think otherwise.

Yes, along with the greatest sahaba, Imam Hussain.

I AM NOT A MUSLIM; so I cannot be a Hamas supporter. Try again for my entertainment.

Yes, Imam Hussain also lost big time.

Now why are you calling Imam Hussain’s lashkar at Karbala a politically and militarily dumb group?

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Re: Why Gaza matters to Pakistanis

GAZA PAIN ,yes humanity is 1st ,we cry on the massacre in SREBRNICA,Mostar, kosvo,kashmir,IRAQ,AFGHANISTAN,BU*****,SOMALIA,RAWANDA EVERY PLACE IN EARTH.all are mankind,but when the resources ,oil and gas politice is playing around you and u start killing innocent people will a human being react yes he will react in the form of repression in form of suicide bombing.when ISREAL capature the GAZA offshore gas field 1 ans 2.yes ISREAL want to capyure the gaza gas field which belong to plasetine people.$4 billion rupees annaually go to PA (palestine authority ) according to agrement between 60%BG(BRITISH GAS) 30%CCC(CONSOLIDATE CONSTRIOUM COMPANY)10% PA,IN 1999.BUT NOW 2006 ISREAL WANT THE DEAL with BG.SO NEW WAR IS JUST TO ROP the $4 billion dollars annaually money of PA.its war of resources who will win yes we can only condem and say sorry of words no more.

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Re: Why Gaza matters to Pakistanis

Here is an article by Tariq Ramadan about Muslims and Gaza.

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Re: Why Gaza matters to Pakistanis

Tariq Ramadan is a bit false. Governments around the world have been calling for Israel to stop; military political powers worldwide have been convening with Israel trying to get them to stop their military actions. The press in the US, at least, has been pretty pro-Palestinian actually. The comments made by government officials were fairly pro-Israeli as usual, but I think the news channels in the US did a much better job of showing how unfair this whole nonsense has been - even Jews in the United States want all this crap to end.

Again, I bring back my main arguments. We muslims need to STOP making this a fight between "us" and "them". Jewish civilians do not deserve to have mortars launched on them - a policy of Islamic "jihad" is not to hurt civilians and treat your war prisoners as if they were your guests. Do you guys not read the Quran and Islamic history of the Prophet PBUH to see how jihad was played out in that time period and what the rules of engagement are? In fact, do you even read translations of the Quran? Because i know most of you do not know a lick of Arabic.

Moonshiner has been living up to his nickname. The Prophet PBUH would never have condoned Hamas's ways - they are completely contrary to the way Jihad is supposed to be fought. Targetting innocent civilians will only lead to more strife for your people - this is not me talking - the evidence of God's wrath is before you. And yet muslims still do not learn.

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Re: Why Gaza matters to Pakistanis

I disagree with the basic premise of the first post.

My thinking is that the current tragedy of Gaza should be condemned by us all as humans. A whole population first subjected to brutal embargo and starvation, and now in the guise of rocket attacks, mercilessly mauled by a far superior military. Its tragic and condemnable on many levels.

Condemnation, fund-raining, speaking out in newspapers, calling your politicians and all other ways of protest and helping out the poor people of Gaza is our responsibility as human beings and muslims. We should all do it.

However, to some how equate Gaza with Kashmir and to make a case that for Pakistanis Gaza should matter because there are similarities... nope. Kashmiris have it better. They live in their own homes. Gaza folks are displaced for half a century. Most importantly I have yet to see any meaningful contribution by any Arab country to solve the Kashmir dispute or to even help the plight of folks in Kashmir. Let alone any talk about supporting Pakistani viewpoint on that issue. This whole Ummah ka Dard is a special characteristic of muslims of sub-continent. While Turkey was throwing away the khalifa after losing WW I, and Mustafa Kamal was leading a resurgence in Istanbul and Ankara, it was the muslims of sub-Continent who failed to get the memo and were launching the Khilafat Movement. Since 1947, Pakistanis have stood shoulder to shoulder with their Arab brethren in all issues, without a single peep from Arabs about issues key to Pakistan. Its a one-way street. While more and more Arab countries are treating the state of Israel as a *fait accompli *and are negotiating with it and establishing contact, Pakistan is still stuck on the one-track mind that we will not accept Israel. It seems that unless the Petro-Dollar Badshah Salamat, gives us permission, Pakistan will keep dancing to the same tune. Our "asooli" foreign policy is so lop-sided, it ceased to be funny a long time ago. The basic premise of our foreign policy is, and should be, Pakistan's self-interests. Unfortunately, the way to define these self interests is inherently flawed and swayed by Petro-Dollar Badshah Salamat's personal generosity and alms to our rulers.

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Re: Why Gaza matters to Pakistanis

And last point, of course, is that even God doesn't help a nation that doesn't help itself. For far too long, muslims have been in this abysmal and weak military position. Begging for relief and mercy is getting too repetetive. Muslim nations need to take stock of the situation, and get out of this vicious cycle. Unless they have the educational superiority, military prowess, missiles, defences, airforce, navy and weaponery to take on the enemies, merely relyihng on UN resolutions and street protests is not going to protect lives. For too long the world order is being mandated and designed in Washington, London and Moscow. So long as muslims remain divided and engaged in bitter in-fighting with no focus to get out of this misery, these bad times will continue.

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Agreed. But condemnation doesn't do a squat. Gazans have been held hostage by BOTH Jihadis and Israeli army.

Israeli army can be asked to and "eventually" they would leave. What about Jihadis? No siree, they will keep their stranglehold on poor Gazans until the Kingdom comes.

We need Arab army to go in and clean up Gaza and provide them peace and security. All these Arabs were sitting on the floor sipping gahwa for the last 4 years. Where was the brotherhood.

Even Africans army with much less resources have taken on more difficult peacekeeping missions. And the Arab neighbors of Gaza just sleep, eat, and make merry.

Right on. And the disease has been caught by all subcontinent Muslims at home or abroad. Otherwise who on earth would be a doctor or engineer and still commit terror at Glasgow airport?

Badshah Salamat is in cahoots with Israeli government already. Why does he care if Pakistan talks to Israel or not. From UAE to Turkey to Lebanon everyone talks to Israel. But not Pakistanis.

It is us who are carrying the badge of stupidity all in the name of religion. We are the true thekadars of our religion. We will cheat, lie, and cut off ears of our fellow Pakistani citizens. But we still are the thekadars.