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Since you are unable to post a response, without offering unwanted commentary on person asking the question, so I had a mind to ignore your response completely. Do you have a problem in just focusing on the issue?
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Ibrahim says : salaams to all
Pristine, that is what I am focusing on but apparently you do not like my style and you cannot understand them too well as you have repeatedly proofed in the earlier thread.
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Instead of wandering here and there, by trying to judge the niyyat of a person. I am not the enemy here. The enemy is our own insecurity to open our minds for difficult issues.
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Ibrahim says: excuse me! You have been trying very hard to switch from here to there and trying to split hairs on points which are not the essence of the answers given by me or others.
Your problem seems to be that you need to proof to others you have a point when there is none since your arguments is basically in trying to spilt written words to derive something other than what is being mentioned.
No one needs to judge anyone’s intention, when there is no problem in the responses or disagreements (everyone is allowed to disagree and do what they want) , but when one tries to undermine an entire reply by trying to focus on one sentence and trying to use that as a basis for their disagreement whilst denying the rest which forms the crux of the issue at hand, one seriously needs to wonder why and intentions becomes an issue !
The issue here was not difficult at all and I only used three verse in the Qur’an to dispel your earlier notion for which I had no disagreement but instead you tried to change from calendar issue to working on weekends issue to what knots now.
Come on Pristine, be sincere and either dispute with solid evidence that it is not haraam to do as the Jews and Christians may do on their holy days not just your intuition please! As you know Muslims are very particular on the daleel.
My problem is that by your actions and words you are trying to negate the Qur’anic ayat I quoted and that I will and have to oppose till everyone get this right . I did not use any fatwa in my approach. So you need to THINK very seriously as to what you are saying by not settling the issue and carry on talking about minor issues.
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The issue of wishing non-muslims was debated and finished, as far as I am concerned.
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Ibrahim says hmm..and what is this thread supposed to be originating from ? And what debate did you offer except your opinion against the evidences I had presented in that thread ? And how does that become finished when you neither agreed nor placed any evidence that was to be considered by me or anyone else for us to follow your persuasion.
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Anyone can open that thread and look at the arguments and decide on the strength of the arguments presented by both parties. If you wish to keep dragging that thread in all your discussions than its up to you. When I focussed on a different issue in the previous thread u made it sound like as if I was running away from the main issue by bringing another issue. Now, that I opened a separate thread on a different question, albeit related, you are again making a fuss that why open a separate thread, and by doing so, apparently the great scholar has been insulted. Rest assured, it seems there is no way to satisfy your complaints. [/quiote]
Ibrahim says: Your mind seems confused Pristine! I am not defending the scholar here and whatever you say against him may amount to backbiting and nothing less since he is not present here. My arguments is based on what I wrote based on my understanding of the message given in the Qur’an as well as other scriptures.
This notion that you focused on a different issue has all to do with trying to claim that the scholars had made a mistake in this particular instance which was why you initiated the first thread about wishing non Muslims in the first place.
Your whole notion for this thread is a few words which you seem to take as you understand it, whereas I do not get that same understanding when I read it. So I am compelled to redirect you ( because you want to proof that the scholars are wrong even though I proofed you wrong without consulting the scholars ) , even though I quit the scene on the other thread the moment you mentioned I am here to win, which sounded very silly to me.
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1. It seems you misrepresented the fatwa of the maulana. If you notice the words in the english translation are "to take time off", which obviously implies an employee. Your interpretation reverses it to mean "declare it a Holy day too" meaning an employer or position of power. The Maulana is clearly instructing muslims not to take time off on that day, whereas you are twisting his words to squeeze out of this restriction. That is incorrect.
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Ibrahim says : what is obvious to me is not obvious to you and your ability to comprehend written words is worrying and had been proofed in error a number of times in your response.
You are now putting words into what that respected scholar is saying and forgetting to understand what he has conveyed as a whole. In other words all your focus are on those few words and using them as your focal point, you want to split everyone hairs, unfortunately it seems it is only your hair that you are splitting.
The point I wish to reiterate is that how you understand those words is not how I understand them and that is perfectly OK, since my level of understanding and your level of understanding cannot be the same.
I have made my self clear as to how I understand those words kindly read them again, if you do not understand what I see .
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2. Then you go on about contractual relationship, which has actually little bearing upon the issue, unless someone is a daily laborer. If a person's pay is not effected if he works or doesn't work on weekend or holidays, overtime provisions notwithstanding. And just for your knowledge, a christian faith called "Jehovah's Witness" never take a day off on Christmas or Easter, even though its a public holiday, because they feel that if its not in Bible, then it is an innovation and against their religion (similar to our islamic concept of bida'a). Whether you get paid for it or not is irrelevant.
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Ibrahim says : so much for your understanding, my point was simple one who works be it self employed or as an employee has the right to follow what he/she wishes to do to make a living so long as it is not haraam in Islam. that fatwa did not say it was haraarm to rest on public holidays or any mandated day as per anyone’s contract.
What that scholar conveyed was do not imitate the non believers by having parties on such occasions, or exchanging gifts, or giving out sweets or food, or taking time off work, etc
Which is simple to understand but you twisted this to mean that weekend rests are forbidden by him ( since they too can be considered holy days for some) or one must work on this mandated public holidays as per this fatwa .
I cannot help you if you add into other peoples words and try to split them as you wish in order to proof your notions. Which all has to do with proofing scholars can be wrog in their opinions .
In my view that does not need any proof as scholars and all of mankind can be wrong at any time and only Allah (swt) can be right all the time.
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3. If you know that the origins of the day are false, then you are supposed to treat it as a normal day and continue with your normal trade. You again changed the focus of the argument by suggesting that even if we don't come to work, doesn't mean we are taking the day off. Duh?
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Ibrahim says: is that what you can comprehend? Or do you suppose a Muslim having his holiday due to what is mandated as a public holiday will not be treating it as any other day in their life?.
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4. You say "This was not the question put to that scholar!", however the words of the fatwa are not limiting to one event. They condemn all festivals and events based on non-muslim origins. Don't try to limit the application of the fatwa to avoid the uncomfortable decisions a follower must take.
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Ibrahim says: what uncomfortable decision followers must take, when that fatwa and myself had precisely conveyed it is wrong to aid and abet falsehoods knowingly as per Allah (swt) instructions? This does not mean that one has to go to work on a holiday against his contract as you want to argue in this thread. To aid and abet falsehood means Muslims must not attest to untruth by words or actions. The Sabbath is not an untruth but a command from Allah (swt) to some people in the past. And Muslims do not rest on this days to fulfill that command but end up having rest days because it has become the norms of following the Gregorian calendar.
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5. The point that muslims should not be celebrating christmas by having christmas tree or Santa Claus or anyother festivities is not the argument here. But rather the very specific words which are in bold in the first post and their profound effect on our everyday lives. The main emphasis is again summarized in the four questions which I posed to you in response to your first post in this thread.
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Ibrahim says: I did not bother to read your four questions since I did not respond to your concern . I merely posted hadiths which had specific info on contracts, leisure time, work etc for those who had wisdom to comprehend them . My reason to respond to you on this thread was already clearly mentioned . my advise to you is that do not keep on trying to proof that someone’s fatwas are faulty until you had actually went and discussed with that person directly as to what he had meant on specific statements that had troubled you.
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I am not looking for any loophole, rather I am just bringing it to the attention of everyone the impact of this fatwa. Or maybe it is that if YOU who post a fatwa, it is all well and good-intentioned, but if someone else posts it, or part of it, he must be heretic and looking for loopholes. I am sorry to see this mentality.
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Ibrahim says: unfortunately, since you earlier tried to focus on Hijri issue whilst skipping the main reply, after words some false allegations and now on weekend issue, I consider it as looking for loop holes and not focusing on what was your reason to start that thread in the first place.
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I do not deny anything from the Quran, but you seem to be in a constant state of denial about the origins of Sabbath on Saturday and the consequent day off on Saturday.
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Ibrahim says; can you point to me where I have been denying Sabbath days or had talked about it constantly?
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While you were the one who was quoting all sort of reference books to emphasize that Christmas has pagan and false origins, when the tables are turned, you are now claiming an out of context ayat of Quran to suggest that discussing origins of Sabbath on Saturday is concealing the truth. How very unfortunate.
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Ibrahim says I keep wondering how you end up coming to the short sighted conclusions that you seem to claim you are getting. Care to show us where I used the Qur’an to deny the Sabbath day, when Sabbath itself is a command for some people in the past from Allah (swt) ?
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Now everyone in this board can see who is following the etiquettes of debate and discussion. Look at my first reply to you in this thread. Despite knowing your tendancy of unwanted personal attacks in the other thread, my response was still entirely based on your arguments, and discussing them one by one, without a single negative comment about you personally. And now look at your follow-up response. It starts off and continuously implies as if I have some desperate desire to waste my time by bringing up unwanted issues for debate.
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Ibrahim says: Pristine, my comments originates from your comments and IF you believe I am talking negatively about you and that this is a personal exchange to malign you, you are wrong, simply because you made it such by your earlier comments. Care to tell us where in the other thread I attacked you, or does it ever gets through to you that you were unable to proof your allegation that I attacked you in that thread?
As a Muslim do you understand what this means? We cannot be lying to each other, so either show us where you got attacked and let the readers judge for themselves.
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My message to you. These are religious debates. If you don't have an answer you don't have to speak up. If you have something to say, say it, without trying to put down others or their opinions or doubt their intentions. These are basic etiquettes of islamic debate which you will do well to learn. If you don't trust me, than look up how great scholars of Islam debated with each other and with people of other faiths. By your constant commentary on the other person and his intentions you manage to blow them off in the first instance, and then whatever you say doesn't have the same impact, even if you are right.
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Ibrahim says: Good here you talk about “without trying to put down others or their opinions or doubt their intentions.” Yet it is you who has been trying to take one sentence and split it the way you chose . tell me are you not trying to put down others or their opinions or doubt their intentions by arguing they meant this and not that?
Pristine, I am straight talker and my words are very direct to the point, this may be difficult for some of you to handle but that does not mean I am rude or disrespect what others had to say. I may have a problem of targeting specific individuals and may even be harsh at times to specific posters but that has more to do with my objectives and not out of any desire to harm or hurt others feelings because of having different views.
I am not here to win or entertain but specifically here to correct errors where it is within my level of comprehension as well as learn what Allah (swt) had so willed from what others had to say or post in various forums from anyone and everyone .
Was salaam
Ibrahim
** The secret of failure is trying to please everybody **