Victory
'Indian Hindu women and freedom'.
What planet do you live on.
Please come back to earth and leave cloud cuckoo land!
Start with the practice of Sati and then we'll work our way up from there concerning Inheritance, Marriage, Dress Code, Employment, Business Aquisitions, Work, Childbirth etc.
'Best of both worlds'. My Butt.
What you meant was WORST of both worlds.
Quote: Sholay
"...Start with the practice of Sati and then we'll work our way up from there concerning Inheritance, Marriage, Dress Code, Employment, Business Aquisitions, Work, Childbirth..."
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We all know that Sati does'nt exist and we oppose tooth and nail for the practise.
Dress code is modesty, you are required to dress up modestly, but we do not chop of hands if you expose your hands or stone or lash them.
Inheritance, please read the Indian Penal Code, you will get the answer, just check with your search engine.
Yeah, I accept that sex determination and abortions of female foetuses are a concern but I oppose it vehemently.
Do you have the guts to come out and tell that what is practised in your country is Wrong and it has to be changed???
I have the guts to accept any loop holes in the system and rectify. Now don't post me some crap like your's is a complete system and the best system. You need courage to accept your shortcomings and ignorance is not a sin. Come out of your mindset and think carefully, you might find my point somewhere.
I admire those who dress as a testament to thier faith,
Pitty those who are forced to dress because of social obligations.
you will find it does not matter what you wear poor women are vulnerable.
I have mentioned the vulnerability of the rural poor. In the tragic case of the two brothers and their two sisters, only teasing and harassment were alleged by the boys, but God knows in what other ways the chaudhries have been satisfying their macho manhood through helpless women. The ultimate objective is of course sex, for what else can a poor woman give to the landlord? Another favourite ploy is to make the women of their opponents parade naked in the village.
I always have grave doubts about the statements of ulema when they claim that the people of Pakistan want the Shariat to control their lives. How can that be? How can people with no morals, no sense of decency, and no scruples, demand the Shariat which is opposed to everything bad and evil?
The nature of feudalism in Sindh has two characteristics. The destitute agricultural labour binds itself to the landlord, the wadera, for a loan from him for a certain period, and till that period is over and the loan is paid off he is like a bonded serf. There is no escape for him, and if he does try to get away, he and his family are put into private jails that are a special feature of Sindh’s feudal life.
Also, the wadera always has his eyes on growing girls among the agricultural labour, most of whom are Hindus. If any of them is good-looking her fate is sealed. She is abducted and married off to a surrogate after being converted to Islam, but is used by the feudal chief. To escape victimization the girl is forced to confess that both her conversion and her marriage were of her own accord.
It is thus that the feudal hold has perpetuated itself in the villages of Punjab and Sindh, where it seems that even the fear of God does not move the self-appointed
This is tragic. I don't know when will justice be served for these women.
South Asia- a society full of contradictions. Damn culture and societal pressures.
People should look inside themselves and figure out what their sense of morality is. I still say that a piece of cloth isn't as critical as some of the responses have made it seem (this is my personal opinion). There are other factors needed in order to stive by Islaam.
Mike, u’re assuming that these Muslims are not (1) Americans (2)unable to speak English. Muslims are a diverse group, ranging from every nationality and ethnicity. Islaam has existed in America for more than a thousand years, yes, that long! The first muslims in the United States were the native Americans; the peace treaty of Delaware has muslim names representing the indiginous peoples. There are many “WASP” “African American” converts/reverts who are as American as Apple pie, whose families have lived in this country for the last 300 to 400 years.
And then you will run into Americans who don’t belong in the white or the black catagory but more educated, well versed, and articulate than the “Average American Joe” or the “Average Educated American” Just because she may be soft spoken in public, covers herself, and does not “strut her stuff” doesn’t mean that she lacks self confidence, is not educated, articulate, or lacks intelligence.
I hope that your stay here at gupshup will dispell some of your views of muslims but remember your being exposed to pakistanis, so dont’ confuse culture with Islaam.
[quote]
Originally posted by MMike:
**With my Western way of thinking I guess I will just not understand the significance of the hibaj, When I see women and girls on television they draw their veils over their faces, As an American I see them as cowering away from the Camera. I seems like a symptom of low self esteem as though they are not worthy of being seen or heard.
Or as if someone has taught them that they are to be silent and out of sight out of mind. This is so contrary to what I have been taught. A woman deserves equal respect as men, All people men and women present themselves as respectable by the way they carry themselves, and perhaps a little by the way they dress as well.
As a man I am to have my own dignity and self-respect. If a woman exposes small amounts of skin such as arms. Legs, shoulders. I certainly can just overlook this without becoming a crazed animal. If women felt that they had to cover themselves when in my presence I would be a little insulted. What kind of person do they think I am? If I see a little skin do they think I will just transform into a mindless pervert an attach them? No, I have a little more self control then that.
Simply following religious teachings is certainly understandable, but if women feel that they need to cover up for social reasons such as not to temp or attract men,
What does that say about those women's perception of the mentality of men?
[This message has been edited by MMike (edited March 26, 2002).]**
[/quote]
Mike; after reading all your comments i guess it seems different or whatever to you because it is a foreign idea, its like a cultural shock... for people in those countries i mean muslim countries it would be weird that why do people wear so much revealing clothes in some countries. So standards of modesty are different.
I wonder that why if a christian or catholic nun covers her head than she recieve more respect while when we do it than we are labeld as oppressed, old faishoned and a lot more , which i would rather not meantion..
It is always amusing to hear women complain about how they are being oggled by men or they hear comments about their bodies made by the opposite gender. If hijab was observed, these incidents would decrease in number
It is not righteousness that ye turn your faces towards East or West; but it is righteousness to believe in Allah and the Last Day, and the Angels, and the Book, and the Messengers; to spend of your substance, out of love for Him, for your kin, for orphans, for the needy, for the wayfarer, for those who ask, and for the ransom of slaves; to be steadfast in prayer, and practice regular charity, to fulfil the
contracts which ye have made; and to be firm and patient, in pain (or suffering) and adversity, and throughout all periods of panic. Such are the people of truth, the God-fearing. Verse 177 : Surah Al-Baqarah ]
[quote]
Originally posted by rvikz:
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before worrying about feudalism in Sindh, you better look at whats going on in your own country.... India has same kind of feudalism may be worse.... pholan devi's life story is an exampl of it....
just because a muslim commits a crime in sindh , doesnt mean you can blame all muslims for it.. i wonder why do u people realte all social , political and economic problem to islam itself....
now whats the point of bringing that story (which i havent read because of lack of time) in a disscussion about islam..
rape is a lot more common in india than it is in sindh,, especially on non hindu mionorities...
should i relate this story to hinduism as well????this is an example of stste sponsered terrorism on non hindu minorities.. and it is written by a westren non muslim journalist, not by some poor kashmiri terrorist), inhis book "war at the top of the world".n its just one of thouse millions of terrible incidents i have heard or read.
"Muslim women became the particular target of the paramilitary, and occasionally the regular forces. Rape became a constant feature of repression. In many cases, all of the young women of villages would be gang-raped, often repeatdly. The Indians understood full well that, in Muslim culture, rape is one of the most abominable crimes possible....
I spoke to a survivor of one of India's "crackdowns", a shy middle-aged woman with a deeply lined face and strikingly blue eyes, who had fled to Azad Kashmir after her small village was incinerated by Indian troops. "They took all of our men away and beat them," she told me in a trembling voice. "My husband and son were put into a truck and driven off. I have never heard from them since then."
There was more, but her Muslim modesty and deep shame would not allow her tell me. A female journalist travelling with me took her aside and, through an interpreter, over many cups of tea, learned the women's story. The Indian troops divided the younger women and girls from the older ones. They marched the younger women behind some stacks of fodder. The Indians, many of whom were drunk, tore off the women's clothing, threw the victims on the ground, and proceeded to gang-rape them repeatedly, including three girls under nine years of age. Those who resisted were beaten, and one was shot. After baginally raping the women and girls, the Indian paramilitary police raped them again anally, spat on them, and called them "Muslim Whores".
After relating her horrifying story, the woman, unable to face us, vanished into a tent,alone with her misery and shame. "
now should all this be directly blamed on hinuism???? off course it shouldnt because thats not what hinuism would have approved... so u also stop trashing about islam... and keep politics and other matters for other fourms not for this one.
[quote]
Originally posted by MMike:
**With my Western way of thinking I guess I will just not understand the significance of the hibaj, When I see women and girls on television they draw their veils over their faces, As an American I see them as cowering away from the Camera. I seems like a symptom of low self esteem as though they are not worthy of being seen or heard.
Or as if someone has taught them that they are to be silent and out of sight out of mind. This is so contrary to what I have been taught. A woman deserves equal respect as men, All people men and women present themselves as respectable by the way they carry themselves, and perhaps a little by the way they dress as well.
As a man I am to have my own dignity and self-respect. If a woman exposes small amounts of skin such as arms. Legs, shoulders. I certainly can just overlook this without becoming a crazed animal. If women felt that they had to cover themselves when in my presence I would be a little insulted. What kind of person do they think I am? If I see a little skin do they think I will just transform into a mindless pervert an attach them? No, I have a little more self control then that.
Simply following religious teachings is certainly understandable, but if women feel that they need to cover up for social reasons such as not to temp or attract men,
What does that say about those women's perception of the mentality of men?
**
[/quote]
Mike- Why is 'covering yourself up' a sign of low-esteem rather than a sign of respect? Are you ashamed of your privates to cover them up? Do you respect your 'privacy' enough to cover yourself reasonably(according to your standards)? Well- simply put- It deserves on how much respect you place on your body. It certainly is not about self esteem!
But If the concept doesn't hit home with you- and because of your western background it probably won't- lets learn to respect and accept like you've done so far, and lets hope others learn to do so as well. :)
deserves = depends. Sorry, typo.
[QUOTE]
Originally posted by Victory:
**
marriage to hindus is not allowed, its like living in sin for your entire life...
so if those girls that you have meantioned don't mind living in sin than off course islam is of no concern to them and they can get along well with whoever they want.
The question is a deeper one, rather than just one of a cloth and its implications to the individual, it is in turn the implications to society as a whole if purdah is accomodated and its effects if not.
In the end of the 18th Century the Western nations hunger for territorial expansion took the whole world of Islam by storm. By the end of the 19th Century most of the Muslim nations had been subdued by Europe. When Islamic nations became subdued mentally and spiritually the subjugation went to a slavish mentally, and the nations became slave to European domination in its totality and hence the purdah came into condemnation from all and its status in the minds of many has stayed as a ‘confinement of women’. So from that very very brief understanding of its downfall to what it is and why is it necessary?
Is that not the place to begin?
We exist because the Creator created us, so we begin the discourse of our existence on Earth. Is our existence here just a freak of nature or do we have a real purpose for our life, is it as some may suggest for enjoyment of the moment regardless of how that is achieved or do we indeed serve a much greater purpose.
You may ask why am I delving into our existence when the actual discourse is about hijab or in actual fact the issue of purdah. The word ‘purdah’ is used as a title for the set of injunctions that constitute the most important part of the Islamic system of community life.
Yes you have heard it this way and that, one’s interpretation being somewhat different to another, yet both are from the same religion? And to be frank whose interpretation should we take, why not just the best one that suits us rather than what the letter and the spirit of purdah is. Why not take it in its entirety rather than just one aspect, why indeed?
As mentioned above, the purdah issue is far deeper than mere debate, to understand its reasons and why it exists, one has to be totally objective to what is being said.
I am just an individual like you, adding if I may to the discussion, I neither condemn nor condone any actions.
Like you, I also wish for pain and hurt, anger and corruption to be ride from ALL our lives, like you I want peace for all and kindness for humanity and very much like you I am trying to come to terms with the current situation that the world exists in.
Can we really be happy while members of our global community are starving elsewhere in the world, or simply because they live in a world of lesser financial exploits can they be sidelined with a total disregard for there well being because they are not amongst the ‘world players’ of finance. Can we ever be satisfied while others hurt and we are comfortable or can we really try and make a change, be it however small?
Many of us are trying to help not add to the current climate of ciaos. Some of us boycott western institutions that support oppressive regimes in other countries, and some of us avoid interest banking because of its injustice to those who don’t have a voice amongst the G8. Many of us are doing other things that help alleviate someone’s burden and trying to put right what is currently very wrong.
Why should we want what is best for others, why not enjoy the moment as we see fit, why can we not rape and pilfer and corrupt and kill to our satisfaction, if I enjoy it why can I not? Here we begin, because we are accountable for our actions towards each other, towards our friends, towards our parents, towards our community and towards the One who will hold us accountable for our deeds. Surely if there is no accountability then there is no law, one does what one wants, when one wants.
But both you and I know that is wrong, we cannot simply do what we want because we have others to consider and hence the debate about the purdah begins.
The purdah is not just a cloth worn on the head, but rather when taken in its entirety it is something so powerful that the whole of society with the inclusion of men rather than there exclusion benefits. It is the covering of the external beauty of the woman and the institution that provides her with the freedom to educate her and live in security and protection within its bounds.
The whole institution of purdah is for the empowerment of society to better itself from the baser instincts of man to the role of thought and consequence. It is there to suppress the kneejerk reaction of all concerned and to stimulate logical thought and due process.
The purdah in its entirety, not what one assumes it to be but what was revealed through the Qur’an and through the Sunnah (peace and blessings be upon him, his companions and his family members, ‘for verily in the Prophet of Allah do you have a perfect example) involves the body, the mind and the character.
It is not as was pointed out just the covering of the head/hair it is something greater.
The purdah was there as a protection from the ills of society, it was there to preserve the nature of man and help in mans advancement rather than reduce him to a mere mortal imprisoned by ones desires.
We live in a society that does not hold these values and unfortunately the results are all too visible, we see teenage pregnancies, abortion, the breakdown of the family, legalisation of prostitution and many other detrimental effects on society.
The purdah in its entirety is there to alleviate these current problems, but when conducted in part it only adds to the confusion.
Like others, I don’t drink alcohol because I have been asked not to by the Creator, I have been told many a time I am missing out, but rather than take a snapshot of enjoyment I would rather avoid the repercussions of its destructive nature (alcoholism, rape, domestic violence, hooliganism, vandalism, economic cost on the state, etc). Like others, I don’t use Interest banking, as its effect on the weaker economic countries is an indictment on us in the west. I like others give away 2.5 percentage of my savings each year to the poor, I like others do all these things as well as alongside the above mentioned accommodate the purdah.
Why is then the purdah any different to all the aforementioned sacrifices, I know like you, in order to exist in peace and harmony we both have to comprise and share so that what is better for mankind as a whole prevails over what is assumed to be better for the individual. Is it really so much more to accommodate the purdah into my life, or is it an actual extention of the sacrifices I make that are for the common good of man.
Should we not, in the 22nd Century start to allow ourselves to objectively question rather than follow someone else’s blown trumpet? If we in the west are really liberated why did it take the Western civilisation so long to give the women the vote? If we really do wish to emulate the west, why then did it take the western civilisation a few decades past, to give the woman the right to inheritance? Why.
Is really mans law helping, or should we now approach the chaos of starvation, of poverty, of insecurity, of crime, of corruption, of mindless violence of so much more by looking at rooting out the problems by applying laws that were created by the very Being that created us. The Creator. No gender therefore no bias.
Ladies, do we not complain that the laws were made by men for men. I know I certainly do.
My young friend, Sultana, posted a most eloquent article, in which her frustration was apparent, but maybe this can give her some food for thought, may you learn Sultana and keep learning.
The sacrifice for the betterment of the society and global village is always going to be greater than the individual; finally the purdah is there so that I don’t compete on every level with my sister in the global village. The only competition should be one of sharing with each other for the betterment of society regardless of race, religion, culture or creed.
If you don’t accommodate the purdah it doesn’t mean that you don’t stand up for the same morals, nor does it mean that you are any way a lesser muslim, that is between you and the Creator, but if you argue and fight and think that the Creator has not stated that the women should accommodate the purdah then you need to learn and ask those who are knowledgeable, do not change God’s law just to suit yourself, that, my friend, shows arrogant stupidity.
Finally if women wear hijab as one most astute young lady said they do it because the Creator asked them too. The finite would argue amongst themselves but it is the rule and law of the Infinite Wise Creator that will overcome all.
Both you and me.
Surely prevention is better than the cure, for in order to achieve the cure one has to go through much pain.
[quote]
Originally posted by secret_obsession:
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I wonder that why if a christian or catholic nun covers her head than she recieve more respect while when we do it than we are labeld as oppressed, old faishoned and a lot more , which i would rather not meantion..**
[/quote]
This is a good question.. Although Most orders of Catholic Nun's have since stopped wearing their habits..
But is is always clear that Nun's are covering themselves because of choice.
That's all I am really saying is that people should have a choice.
How "holy" or "good" is anyone whose acts are preformed because of force and not free will?
Not holy at all. Islam is nothing if its by force.
Salaam all-
A friend forwarded this and thought I'd share with all who are fascinated by this topic.
It has been my personal observation that some Muslim girls and women do not realize the significance of hijab. Hijab is arabic or protection and cover. Some people put a lot effort into their hijab, yet it serves no purpose. I am referring to the pointless hijab that some girls wear.
The first hijab is referred to as the headband hijab. It is a band of fabric approximately 4 inches wide. It covers the back of the head and allows all the hair to be exposed. It doesn't serve much in terms of modesty, but at least it comes in handy in case of an unexpected tennis match.
The second hijab is the dupetta, also known as the Saran wrap hijab. It covers all the hair, but it is totally transparent. Again it doesn't serve much in terms of modesty, but it keeps the air nice and fresh.
The third type of hijab is known as the Mickey Mouse Hijab. It is when a girl wears a black scarf and tucks it behind her ear, so that her ears stick out.
We now move to my favorites: the yo-yo hijabs. The first yo-yo hijab, also known as the Benazir Bhutto hijab, is the scarf that keeps falling down and needs to be constantly pulled back up....up, down, up, down, just like a yo-yo.
The second yo-yo hijab is also referred to as the convertible hijab. This type of hijab is predominant at any type of social event, i.e. an Aqeeqah, Bismillah party, Ameen party, wedding, etc. This is when an Imam or Qari comes up to the microphone and starts to recite Qur'an. At this point, all the convertible hijabs come up...until he says "Sadaqallahul atheem".
I'm not sure, but apparently in some cultures that translates to "ok sisters,you may now take off your scarves". I'm sure this may seem odd, but what's even funnier is when people do not anticipate the recitation of Qur'an at a social event, and are forced to be creative and use accessories such as a **purse **to cover one's hair.
I was surprised to see a women hold her purse **over her head as "hijab"..as if the multitudes of men surrounding her are not a good enough reason to wear hijab, but some guy reciting du'a compels her to hold a purse over her head. Her friends were more creative...one friend used her **dinner napkin. I was also laughing when I saw the communal hijab---two or more girls draped under one dinner napkin during the recitation of Quraan. Her other friend was still more creative. She used her **coffee saucer **on the back of her head. I wasn't sure if it was hijab or a Yamaka. I didn't know if she was a Muslim or a Jew. I felt like going up to her and saying "Shalom alaikum, sister". While another woman, pulled up her **blazer **to cover her hair, without even taking it off, which looked quite painful!
And, people should remember that hijab is not just prevent attention from guys, but from a girl's nafs (ego) as well. It should prevent girls from having to spend hours in front of the mirror doing her hair. But, unfortunately, you see girls in front of the mirror for hours doing their hijab as they would do their hair, with all sorts of elaborate braids and the like. I wanted to go up to a sister and say "Is your hijab naturally curly?". I also felt compelled to go up to another girl and say "pardon me, but is your hijab naturally that color, or did you dye it?".
Well, the point to remember is that some people make an effort to wear hijab, but it is futile, because it is not fulfilling it's purpose. It's like using an umbrella with holes in it. Hijab is used to deter attention from guys as well as from the girl herself (her nafs), and should not be used as an accessory or for beautifying one's self. Anyway, that's it. If anyone disagrees
with me or is offended, then you are disagreeing with the teachings of Allah subhanahu wa Ta'ala.
Salaam
[quote]
Originally posted by Ace:
*Not holy at all. Islam is nothing if its by force. *
[/quote]
I agree you..
Prophet Muhammad has said that
"inamal a malo binay_yat"
amal ka daromudar niyetion per hain
[This message has been edited by secret_obsession (edited April 02, 2002).]