Why do educated and intelligent Pakistanis support dictatorship over democracy?

[anagnorisis]

Re: Why do educated and intelligent Pakistanis support dictatorship over democracy?

^ yes, and India has all the feudal problems while Pakistan doesn’t

I did ruffle someone’s feathers. First of all, I don’t think India is a model country for Pakistan in every respect. They do have a democracy which is functioning well for their country (or should I say elite?), but it’s certainly not an ideal democracy. The rise of BJP, leadership of Congress party, the criminal elements who’re always successful in getting themselves elected to their assemblies .. not a very democratic system especially when compared to Western democracies. Still it works for them. Despite all this, I’m sure, India needs your wealth redistribution plans more than Pakistan does, even after eradicating ‘feudalism’.

And please do define feudalism and explain precisely which feudal problems you think Pakistan is facing today.

[ehtasab]

Re: Why do educated and intelligent Pakistanis support dictatorship over democracy?

I'm not a fan of martial law.

But the unfortunate fact of the matter is that, for whatever reason, Pakistan really hasn't been able to produce any competent civilian leaders in the past 50 or so years. Military rule has just shown itself to be the lesser of two evils.

Honestly, what do all the pro-'democracy' (if we can even call anything in Pakistan's political history by that name) want? Who are you planning on electing? This is the name Nawaz Sharif who ran the country into the ground in the 90's (with some help from Benazir).

There are people who would support Nawaz Sharif, majority of us do know he was corrupt. He was kicked out for corruption and what not. Today after 8 years of army rule we still have Nawaz Sharif back in political scene, care to elaborate on why? Is it because his cases couldn't be proved (was he innocent)? Or is it that another corrupt person didn't want to get the other corrupt indicted (you scratch my back I scratch yours)?

[quote]
The last time we had civilian rule, our foreign exchange reserves were about the same as Nepal's, Karachi was a war zone,
[/quote]
If you are talking about Operation Cleanup of 90s, yes it was brutal many innocent died but so did many criminals. But today country is in far worse situation, do you have count of suicide bombings for 2007?

[quote]
the Supreme Court had been stormed by Nawaz's supporters in an effort to force the CJ to resign, and we had no private TV media to speak of.
[/quote]
Supreme Court was still surrounded by army in name of Emergency, the CJ who didn't support Mush for 2nd tenure got kicked out. Score equaled with civilian rulers?

[ehtasab]

Re: Why do educated and intelligent Pakistanis support dictatorship over democracy?

And please do define feudalism and explain precisely which feudal problems you think Pakistan is facing today.

I don't want to derail thread, please feel free to open a separate thread.

[Mostar95]

Re: Why do educated and intelligent Pakistanis support dictatorship over democracy?

The leadership of the majority of the political parties is held by wealthy people of this country.

[Saad_UAE]

Re: Why do educated and intelligent Pakistanis support dictatorship over democracy?

Wrong. Many of us support status quo because the "democratic" parties in Pakistan are not remotely democratic at all. Case in point: The way PPP leadership was handed down as if its a piece of family property.

If I see a competent democratic leader, I will support them. Fact is, there is none.

So, of all the evils, the least evil at the moment is Musharraf. Who technically is no longer a military chief, and therefore, technically, the country is no longer a military dictatorship.

He gave up his power as COAS so that he could keep the country together. Most Pakistani leaders wouldn't have made that choice.

Most importantly, I'll support those who get &%#$ done. He opened up the TV channels and media, and despite his horrible mistake of shutting down GEO temporarily in Pakistan, the media is still way more open than what it used to be. People who say they were democratic leaders ran a state-run PTV, not even allowing Moin Akhtar and Anwar Maqsood to indulge too much in direct political jokes. That's democracy?

You can dress up a wolf in sheep's clothing, but it still stays a wolf. Democracy in Pakistan is nothing more than nationalized fuedalism.

Agree 100%

[Sa1eem]

Re: Why do educated and intelligent Pakistanis support dictatorship over democracy?

I have already seen discussion here about it. India had cut the roots of jaageerdari/sardaari by taking away big parts of lands from "waderas/jageerdaars", hence we don't see feudalism in India.

India managed to do that because Jageerdaars in India at the time of Partition were not strong enough to defend themselves. As for Pakistan, Jageerdaars and Sardars were too powerful that anything could be done against them.

Actually, there was land reform in Pakistan, but being powerful, Jageerdars made sure that there are ways to by pass the reform ... those who brought the reform, many were jageerdaars themselves (like Bhutto), and thus bringing land reform was only political drama.

As for Sardari Nizam, one can realize its deep root from the fact that until Musharraf came to power and decided to challenge Sardari Nizam in Balochistan, 95 percent of Balochistan had no Pakistani laws applicable and words of Sardar was Law there, such that if Sardar wanted to, he could have killed a person or make whole community leave the area confiscating everything they have, without fear of any laws.

[quote]
India wasn't a "democracy" back then, it was more of socialist-democracy. It turned more towards democracy later in the last century.
[/quote]

How come? Why you wrote that? What is difference between socialist democracy and democracy? If people vote for a party that has socialist manifesto then it is right of the people. As long as people are not forced to vote a person or a party but they vote using their free will, than that is democracy.

For instance, those who want democracy, they should know that if majority of people in Pakistan vote for a communist party than Pakistan would become communist country with communist policies, regardless of they like it or not. This party can decide that no one in country should keep beard and no women should wear hijab, then it would be their right.

[though I do not agree that government should have right over the personal life of individuals in the country, and that if agreed, has to be applicable for all, in all ways].

[Sa1eem]

Re: Why do educated and intelligent Pakistanis support dictatorship over democracy?

There are people who would support Nawaz Sharif, majority of us do know he was corrupt. He was kicked out for corruption and what not. Today after 8 years of army rule we still have Nawaz Sharif back in political scene, care to elaborate on why? Is it because his cases couldn't be proved (was he innocent)? Or is it that another corrupt person didn't want to get the other corrupt indicted (you scratch my back I scratch yours)?

No one in government do corruption in such obvious way that they can be caught easily. Only thing is that they become richer and resourceful without any explanation, plus one can see their living beyong their means.

On the other hand, Pakistani society is mentally so corrupt that they support corrupts without any shame. For instance, just look around and you will find many supporter of corrupt ex-CJ Iftikhar, whose corruption and nepotism is obvious, still you will find their supporters saying that its fine, these things is acceptable.

[quote]
If you are talking about Operation Cleanup of 90s, yes it was brutal many innocent died but so did many criminals. But today country is in far worse situation, do you have count of suicide bombings for 2007?
[/quote]

There is big difference:
Opertaion cleanup was against a political party, however good or bad. During cleanup, people were judged on the basis of their ethnicity.

Whereas, present action is against those who are fighting the state with arms and are criminals (aka AL-Qaida and Taliban). There is no ethnicity of Taliban or Al-qaida. Though most in Taliban are from NWFP, anyone from Pakistan could be Taliban, for instance Rasheed of Lal Masjid was from Multan.

[quote]
Supreme Court was still surrounded by army in name of Emergency, the CJ who didn't support Mush for 2nd tenure got kicked out. Score equaled with civilian rulers?
[/quote]

NS action against CJ Sajjad was not on any ground of corruption, nepotism, misuse of power or anything. It was only because NS pig-headed corrupt.

As for recent (Iftikhar) event, there was no victimization, but a reference was sent to SJC against Iftikhar, that Iftikhar is alleged of corruption, nepotism, misuse of power etc etc ... and now it was for Iftikhar to defend himself in front of SJC (something an honest person would have defended willingly), but he did not. Nevertheless he was never sacked, and court stopped SJC to investigate reference against him.

When new PCO came ex-corrupt CJ Iftikhar did not took oath and thus he lost his job because he declined to take oath, not for any victimization.

surprising is that, PCO for a corrupt person without any principle like Iftikhar should have been no big deal, as he was CJ in the first place because he took oath on past PCO and was President's man to start with. But since he made fool of many, he only wanted to show-off and thus got sacked.

[Ali_R]

Re: Why do educated and intelligent Pakistanis support dictatorship over democracy?

Brother, please do not misunderstand me, as I am not of those that hate someone for the sake of it (actually, I do not hate anyone, but respect according to what I believe they do or did). Rather, I think it is sin that one do not give credit where it belongs.

I do not think that Bhutto did nothing. Actually, I appreciate a lot what he did on social front, regardless of me not liking some of the things that he did, especially on economical and political front. Fact is that, amongst Pakistani politicians, I think that he did most and should be appreciated for that (that includes initiating Nuclear program for making Pakistan nuclear).

Actually, I think that Bhutto did a lot and could have done much more. Some of what he did is really appreciable and I always would respect him for that. His work in Pakistan for ordinary people and also in bringing changes in Pakistani culture was immense. I think I have mentioned many of what goods he did for Pakistan, in my past posts. Some of his work that I really appreciate are:

Introducing ID card and National dress (as that gave identity as well as feeling of importance and equality to those Pakistanis who could never have thought of their importance). His giving right of passport to every Pakistan and made it easy to get (in past, it was very difficult for most Pakistanis to even get Passport). His abolishing foreign exchange Bonus Voucher scheme and giving right to every Pakistani to get dollars from State Bank of Pakistan for traveling abroad. His start of 'NDVP' (I think that is what it was called) that gave guaranteed job and thus a bit of income to every graduate who wanted it, so that they can have some self respect and work for further their career.

I really believe that he was genuine in his desire to find ways to provide affordable roti, karpra aur makan for all Pakistanis, and give them free (or affordable) education. His appeal to Pakistanis to work for Pakistan and his desire (well, it seems that way) to try to do something for the poor of the country, did gave a lot for poor to remember him.

Well, there are many things that he started that is appreciatable. But than that does not absolve him from all his political victimisation of opponents and destroying ... rather restraining Pakistan economical development (intentionally or unintentionally).

Reading all this how can you then argue he has done most mediocare, when investing in nuke r&d. You are contradicting yourself here, sir.

[ehtasab]

Re: Why do educated and intelligent Pakistanis support dictatorship over democracy?

India managed to do that because Jageerdaars in India at the time of Partition were not strong enough to defend themselves. As for Pakistan, Jageerdaars and Sardars were too powerful that anything could be done against them.

Actually, there was land reform in Pakistan, but being powerful, Jageerdars made sure that there are ways to by pass the reform ... those who brought the reform, many were jageerdaars themselves (like Bhutto), and thus bringing land reform was only political drama.

Thank you for supporting the point!

[quote]
As for Sardari Nizam, one can realize its deep root from the fact that until Musharraf came to power and decided to challenge Sardari Nizam in Balochistan, 95 percent of Balochistan had no Pakistani laws applicable and words of Sardar was Law there, such that if Sardar wanted to, he could have killed a person or make whole community leave the area confiscating everything they have, without fear of any laws.
[/quote]

Unfortunately that is true for many many parts of Pakistan, still, "might is right" is the law and not constitution of Pakistan. Pakistani laws are applicable only to those who are unable to bribe or who don't have strong connections.

[quote]
How come? Why you wrote that? What is difference between socialist democracy and democracy? If people vote for a party that has socialist manifesto then it is right of the people. As long as people are not forced to vote a person or a party but they vote using their free will, than that is democracy.
[/quote]

Do you agree that Iran has "Democracy" and not something else? :)

[ehtasab]

Re: Why do educated and intelligent Pakistanis support dictatorship over democracy?

No one in government do corruption in such obvious way that they can be caught easily. Only thing is that they become richer and resourceful without any explanation, plus one can see their living beyong their means.

Can we not then accuse Musharraf's govt doing the same since we cannot "prove" it in courts? :)

We all know Musharraf "pardoned" billions in loans to PML-Q to get them on-board, is that not corruption?

Crimes forgiven, (NRO, May 12) etc... not corruption? Anyway, I don't want to derail thread in listing the crimes and corruption of present govt versus previous governments (we alread had few threads here about those).

[quote]
On the other hand, Pakistani society is mentally so corrupt that they support corrupts without any shame. For instance, just look around and you will find many supporter of corrupt ex-CJ Iftikhar, whose corruption and nepotism is obvious, still you will find their supporters saying that its fine, these things is acceptable.
[/quote]

I agree, we really do have large mentally retarded group, I mean how can anyone support Musharraf, Nawaz Sharif, Benazir (late), Ch's etc?

[quote]
There is big difference:
Opertaion cleanup was against a political party, however good or bad. During cleanup, people were judged on the basis of their ethnicity.
[/quote]

It was, because the operation was against a particular political party based on ethnicity hence "gehoun ke saath ghun bhi pis gaya" (unfortunately).

[quote]
Whereas, present action is against those who are fighting the state with arms and are criminals (aka AL-Qaida and Taliban). There is no ethnicity of Taliban or Al-qaida. Though most in Taliban are from NWFP, anyone from Pakistan could be Taliban, for instance Rasheed of Lal Masjid was from Multan.
[/quote]

Yes, present govt has expanded the operation to whole nation :D, okay just kidding.

[quote]
NS action against CJ Sajjad was not on any ground of corruption, nepotism, misuse of power or anything. It was only because NS pig-headed corrupt.
[/quote]

And Musharraf did it because he was dog-headed corrupt? Come on, both were wrong and should be condemned.

[quote]
As for recent (Iftikhar) event, there was no victimization, but a reference was sent to SJC against Iftikhar, that Iftikhar is alleged of corruption, nepotism, misuse of power etc etc ...
[/quote]
The reference was sent when? As soon as crimes against him were found out? or when someone needed to pull some plugs?

[quote]
and now it was for Iftikhar to defend himself in front of SJC (something an honest person would have defended willingly), but he did not. Nevertheless he was never sacked, and court stopped SJC to investigate reference against him.
[/quote]
Was an SJC really formed and declared? I thought the case never went beyond SC.

[quote]
When new PCO came ex-corrupt CJ Iftikhar did not took oath and thus he lost his job because he declined to take oath, not for any victimization.

surprising is that, PCO for a corrupt person without any principle like Iftikhar should have been no big deal, as he was CJ in the first place because he took oath on past PCO and was President's man to start with. But since he made fool of many, he only wanted to show-off and thus got sacked.
[/quote]
The reason cases against the corrupt judiciary are not being followed is .........???

[mAd_ScIeNtIsT]

Re: Why do educated and intelligent Pakistanis support dictatorship over democracy?

An expensive, English-language private education gives kids from rich families a huge edge in the job market. So clearly, there is no incentive for the well-placed to improve the state system.

Actually this raises a very interesting point. The job market for educated people prefers strong English skills. However, efforts to decrease the amount of urdu and provincial languages taught in state-funded schools in favour of more English always gets a lot of opposition in parliament.

[mAd_ScIeNtIsT]

Re: Why do educated and intelligent Pakistanis support dictatorship over democracy?

The reason so many millions of Pakistanis remember the first Bhutto era with nostalgia is that it saw many major projects launched. Nationalisation created many more jobs. While the sophisticated may argue that this was an economic disaster, the poor have a diametrically opposite view.

There is no doubt that nationalisation created many jobs. The problem is that under Bhutto's nationalisation program, companies took on so many employees that they were no longer profitable. State-owned companies had to be kept afloat with taxpayer money. Knowing that there would always be government bailouts, many of these companies then became poorly run (rendered worse by incompetent management being installed by the government as political payoffs).

Ultimately state owned companies become little more than a social welfare system, that stifle the environment for private competition that could provide better services for consumers.

Where private competition exists, state owned business lose consumers, and thus income, and thus become an even bigger burden on taxpayers.

[janab-e-ali]

Re: Why do educated and intelligent Pakistanis support dictatorship over democracy?

There are people who would support Nawaz Sharif, majority of us do know he was corrupt. He was kicked out for corruption and what not. Today after 8 years of army rule we still have Nawaz Sharif back in political scene, care to elaborate on why? Is it because his cases couldn't be proved (was he innocent)? Or is it that another corrupt person didn't want to get the other corrupt indicted (you scratch my back I scratch yours)?

So then that begs the question, what viable civilian ruler are we rooting for then? What is the vastly superior alternative to the Musharraf regime?

Or do we just let one of the admittedly corrupt civilian rulers take over again and run the country into the ground for the sake of principle?

If you are talking about Operation Cleanup of 90s, yes it was brutal many innocent died but so did many criminals. But today country is in far worse situation, do you have count of suicide bombings for 2007?

I'm not just talking about Operation Cleanup.

By all accounts, the law & order situation in Karachi was far worse in the early 1990's...back in the days when the city was rife with ethnic & sectarian violence, and was known to have the highest murder rate of any city in the world. As bad as this past year has been, the murder rate in Karachi is still lower today than it was 15 years ago...for comparison's sake, from the figures I can find online, there have been about 60 suicide attacks in all of Pakistan during 2007, with a total death toll of almost 800...whereas in 1995, according to official government figures (so you can probably double them to get an accurate picture of the actual situation), there were almost 2100 murders in Karachi alone. People who didn't see Karachi in those days don't have any idea how bad things really were...

[king_faisal]

Re: Why do educated and intelligent Pakistanis support dictatorship over democracy?

even whats more amazing is that educated pakistanis would take crap published in pak newspapers at face value.

[ehtasab]

Re: Why do educated and intelligent Pakistanis support dictatorship over democracy?

So then that begs the question, what viable civilian ruler are we rooting for then? What is the vastly superior alternative to the Musharraf regime?

Or do we just let one of the admittedly corrupt civilian rulers take over again and run the country into the ground for the sake of principle?

Musharraf regime is now almost over already, what did he prepare Pakistan for?

We should let the institutions develop, set up an accountability system where everyone is accountable someone, judiciary should be accountable to "Parliament" and not some "Ministry", same goes for army and other law enforcement institutions. We cannot sow a seed today and expect a fruit tomorrow morning. We will have to bear tough times as the democracy settles in and the corrupt elements are held accountable etc.

[quote]
I'm not just talking about Operation Cleanup.

By all accounts, the law & order situation in Karachi was far worse in the early 1990's...back in the days when the city was rife with ethnic & sectarian violence, and was known to have the highest murder rate of any city in the world. As bad as this past year has been, the murder rate in Karachi is still lower today than it was 15 years ago...for comparison's sake, from the figures I can find online, there have been about 60 suicide attacks in all of Pakistan during 2007, with a total death toll of almost 800...whereas in 1995, according to official government figures (so you can probably double them to get an accurate picture of the actual situation), there were almost 2100 murders in Karachi alone. People who didn't see Karachi in those days don't have any idea how bad things really were...
[/quote]
Source please? Thanks.

[ehtasab]

Re: Why do educated and intelligent Pakistanis support dictatorship over democracy?

even whats more amazing is that educated pakistanis would take crap published in pak newspapers at face value.

Why can't you inform us ignorants which papers should we take at "facevalue"? Any particular papers that you believe in? Thanks.

[janab-e-ali]

Re: Why do educated and intelligent Pakistanis support dictatorship over democracy?

Musharraf regime is now almost over already, what did he prepare Pakistan for?

Lets see...
He opened up the media and allowed for private TV stations for the first time in Pakistan's history

He created a system of representative local governance

He took over at a time when Pakistan's economy was on its knees, and heralded one of the most dramatic periods of economic growth the nation has seen...creating a significant middle class population

He brought foreign investment back to the country

He brought back some semblance of normalcy in Karachi after the city had albeit become another Caracas or Lagos...

We cannot sow a seed today and expect a fruit tomorrow morning. We will have to bear tough times as the democracy settles in and the corrupt elements are held accountable etc.

Youre skirting my question.

Who in Pakistan's current political landscape is the viable civilian candidate who wont squander whatever progress we've made since the dark ages of the 1990's?

Source please? Thanks.

"In the city of Karachi alone, snipers killed 1113 people in 1994. By 1995, Karachi had become the most dangerous city of Asia, with a murder rate that reached 2095."
**
Pakistan's Sindhi Ethnic Nationalism: Migration, Marginalization, and the Threat of "Indianization"
*By Adeel Khan
*Asian Survey, Volume 42, No. 2 (Mar. - Apr., 2002), pp. 213-229

[ehtasab]

Re: Why do educated and intelligent Pakistanis support dictatorship over democracy?

Lets see... He opened up the media and allowed for private TV stations for the first time in Pakistan's history

He created a system of representative local governance

He took over at a time when Pakistan's economy was on its knees, and heralded one of the most dramatic periods of economic growth the nation has seen...creating a significant middle class population

He brought foreign investment back to the country

He brought back some semblance of normalcy in Karachi after the city had albeit become another Caracas or Lagos...

And how does all that enhance, establish and support "Democratic" system? Or are you suggesting we spend another decade or two under him and then see if we are ready for anything like democracy at the time?

[quote]
Youre skirting my question.

Who in Pakistan's current political landscape is the viable civilian candidate who wont squander whatever progress we've made since the dark ages of the 1990's?
[/quote]

Currently there is no one, not even Musharraf. With crooks like Ch brothers do you think we have had good corruption free governance? The nation was taken hostage on many occasions, with energy crisis throwing nation in darkness more and more. As I said I don't want to derail the thread by listing goods and bads of Musharraf regime.

By supporting "Musharraf regime" people are actually supporting adhocism under which no institutions can prosper, there can be no long term solution for anything, all we'll get is a patch-fix.

[quote]
"In the city of Karachi alone, snipers killed 1113 people in 1994. By 1995, Karachi had become the most dangerous city of Asia, with a murder rate that reached 2095."
**
Pakistan's Sindhi Ethnic Nationalism: Migration, Marginalization, and the Threat of "Indianization"
*By Adeel Khan
*Asian Survey, Volume 42, No. 2 (Mar. - Apr., 2002), pp. 213-229
[/quote]

This is a heading for an article, what about the link for the article?

[king_faisal]

Re: Why do educated and intelligent Pakistanis support dictatorship over democracy?

Why can't you inform us ignorants which papers should we take at "facevalue"? Any particular papers that you believe in? Thanks.

from your posts, you seem to be a smart person. my suggestion is to rely on your own judgement rather relying on pak press for analysis and information.

[janab-e-ali]

Re: Why do educated and intelligent Pakistanis support dictatorship over democracy?

^
Musharraf has plenty of flaws no doubt. Unfortunately, I think he's also more capable than the buffoons any of the major political parties will run...for me its really just an issue of choosing the lesser of two evils. I don't want to see the country back to the way it was 15 years ago, all for the principle of supporting democracy...

As far as the article is concerned, its not available for free online...I have a pdf, but I don't see a way to attach it