Why can't you criticise

[ninja_hattori]

Re: Why can’t you criticise

IMO Founding father of any nation can be criticized for his actions.

In subcontinent we don’t know constructive criticism.when we criticize someone its only out of hatred for that personality.when we accept that person as human we can praise his good works and criticize his wrong actions.

[Anwer_Pasha]

Re: Why can’t you criticise

We are the people of a country who lived under the rule of military dictators/traitors for a long , our history is melt . Our minds are sick , our system was destroyed and we still like licking the boots

[Arleitter]

Re: Why can’t you criticise

Criticism can be done in a healthy way .But if criticism extends to taking up arms against the establishment,then establishment will also have the similar approach. Kill and dump policy. No need to whine about it. Who are you to disrupt a system that has been established on the sweat and blood of others?

If you are there to bleed us,we will bleed you a 1000 times fold.

Like happened in Punjab,Baluchistan,Sindh,South America or anywhere else in the world.

[muqawwee123]

Re: Why can’t you criticise

@Monk

ok. Why would you want to criticize ?? What did you find so wrong?

If you mean discussion, then yes when you go to read history as major you read very interesting thing about famous people.

Telling a 10 year old kid, jinnah did one thing wrong, and not telling he did 1000 things write is called "character assassination "

About urdu thing, did you find every one from bangal speaking against it, from day one ???
IF not then its your and my shame, the country decide one thing and could not fulfill it.
Jews coming from all over the east Europe decide Hebrew their language, they implemented it.
Pakistan decided urdu would be the language, could not implement it, that makes it Jinnah’s fault ???
how ???

Not every thing you read need to discussed. Some you could filter you self.

oh Bhai, character assassination is when someone criticise personality like a post about Mahatma Gandhi in this thread. I’m talking about action that affected nation as a whole. Its not about 10 years old student, its about adults as well. Why people talking in favor of their language were considered traitor? Why such imposition lead to separation movements? Have we learned a lesson from all this and changed our attitude towards others?

Quaid e Azam was a great great leader and there is no doubt to it. He deserves utmost respect for his struggle, but let me say that he didn’t know the sensitivity of language issue and attachment of people with their languages. The provinces / states that formed part of Pakistan did not join Pakistan that they will abandon their languages. If this is the case, bring such documents from history. Interesting fact is Sindhi Hindus now form joust 0.7% of India’s population, but Sindhi is one of national languages of India. Now, do the maths for Sindhi in Pakistan and go through the riots that happened when Sindhis demanded for making their language one of the national language of Pakistan.

When you say country decided it, you exclude majority Bengalis. If they were happy with this imposition, there wouldn’t have been language movement in Bengal. Why would they agitated against a country, for which movement started from their land?

The line ‘Not every thing you read need to discussed. Some you could filter you self’ reminds me censorship of some dictators imposed in Pakistan

[Arleitter]

Re: Why can’t you criticise

@ninja_hattori

IMO Founding father of any nation can be criticized for his actions.

In subcontinent we don’t know constructive criticism.when we criticize someone its only out of hatred for that personality.when we accept that person as human we can praise his good works and criticize his wrong actions.

Anmd we do not know how to criticize in a healthy way.

[muqawwee123]

Re: Why can’t you criticise

@Reha

Amen!

Doesn’t PTI leader Imran Khan have a child that he refuses to own in LA somewhere? Yet, that’s okay.

This will invite AP uncle here (who is already invited)

[P_G]

Re: Why can’t you criticise

@TLK

Aqeedat apni jagah, lekin haqeeqat ka bhi apna martabaa hai

aqeedat say zyada mera nazer’ya apnay mukhlis Quaideen ka apnay mulk ka Dif’faa hai … u know what app apne olaad ki terbiyat main is cheez ko zaroor daltay hon gay agar app ki ammi nay ghalat bat ker bhi to bhi app chup rahain un say behas na kerain..app apnay bachoon ko yeh bhi sikhain gay k baita gher ki bat ko bahir na kerain

quid-e-azam k bad humain un jaisa ik leader bhi naseeb na hoa…ajj hum apnay leaders ko daikh daikh ker rotay hain… yeh hamaray amaal hain… k hum inhe ko deserve kertay hain

agar app haqeeqat or tareekh ko ley ker in tanqeedat ko zair-ebehas laanay lagay to yaad rakhain
anay walee nasal main in shakhsiyat k ley raay e k danay k baraber bhi na izzat ho gee na un k qadar…

main or app ik line per aaa ker jo apnay app ko roktay hain is ki wajah hamray barooN or usaatiza ki woh terbiyat hay k uhoon nay humain in shakhsiyat say sirf muhabbat kerna sikhaya ..in k wohe pehloo ujaagar keye jo musbit thay jis per hum fakher kertay thay …

southie> app nay apnee nalaiqee per abhi tak chullo bher paani main Ghotay nahi lagayee ?

[muqawwee123]

Re: Why can’t you criticise

@Jolie

Of course you can criticise “Mr Jinnah”. He was a burger, he was well off, he lived in a pretty house, he had servants, he wore custom made stylish suits from England while poor old Gandhi wore no clothes. He was arrogant, the Brits always complained about him never smiling and shaking hands. And above all, he had three dogs, now Western wannabe who had three dogs as pet and shared sofa with them, did not deserve to become the leader of Muslim country. Just ask Khawaja Saad Rafique of Nawaz League, he’s a very important person in Pakistan. It is unfair that I actually don’t see people moaning about all that - why does Jinnah get a special treatment in Pakistan?

Anyway. Back to serious point. I’m one of those people that believe that Urdu as a *national *language did not prove to be an entirely successful experiment. Now that’s not due to Jinnah, I don’t feel ‘right’ about criticising him when I put all the emotions aside. By the time, the debate on Urdu language became a separatist campaign, Pakistan was far from being the shadow of the country, Jinnah had envisioned. The language debate was just the tip of iceberg. The issue was an offshoot of deep economic inequalities and political power struggle that became the reason for communities falling apart and growing hostile.

But why should I criticise Jinnah? Urdu wasn’t his language. He could barely speak the language fluently himself. It wasn’t even the most popular language amongst the people who migrated from India. But Pakistan was a new country, it needed a binding medium to unit all these people together, and make them an inclusive group, and Urdu as a lingua franca provided that opportunity. It was a good decision at that time. It made sense in 1947 to have it as a *national *language, but perhaps in 2014, you can have an argument that should’ve been declared an official language where you only speak the language if you need to, and it did not define your national identity and patriotism. I say this because I do not appreciate the past practice that just to maintain the supremacy of Urdu other languages and dialects of Pakistan were dismissed and downgraded, and that was not done by Jinnah! I’m pretty sure had he lived longer, he would’ve promoted the sanctity of locals languages as well.

But having said, Pakistan’s real tragedy is that Jinnah died soon after the making of Pakistan. In that one year that he lived, he was becoming increasingly ill. Had he lived for another ten years, or even five years, I have no doubt in mind that he would’ve penned down a lot of reforms, and made a lot of changes to his original plans. Pakistan was a different country back then, and the founding fathers and the general population were a lot smarter, back in the day, constitution or any kind Magna Carta was not considered a final word of God and subject to no change and criticism, like it is today.

I agree with most of the part of your post.

About your first para, I’m not asking about personal traits, how they live, what they own, what they ate / drink. I was asking for discussion of the actions which afterwards proved wrong.

I do agree that what Mr Jinah did had a reason and he considered it best at that time. But he and other leaders were human beings and when their actions contributed to some bad results, why should not be such actions analysed from different perspectives (as you did in your post to a good extent)?

[muqawwee123]

Re: Why can’t you criticise

@diwana

On topic:

Founding fathers CAN be criticized but room for respect needs to be left open.

I agree. I repeat I’m not asking for character assassination (jaisa ke mere fazil dost Monk ne farmaya) and I’m not for bringing personal lives of those who died. What I’m asking is assessment of certain decisions / actions and their outcome.

[Ali_Syed]

Re: Why can’t you criticise

@Southie

But not founding brothers, sisters, mothers, aunts and uncles.

Yes the sister of Jinnah was literally bullied by ayub.

[Southie]

Re: Why can’t you criticise

@muqawwee123

I agree. I repeat I’m not asking for character assassination (jaisa ke mere fazil dost Monk ne farmaya) and I’m not for bringing personal lives of those who died. What I’m asking is assessment of certain decisions / actions and their outcome.

It didn’t go unnoticed that there was not a single “we” in your response.

[muqawwee123]

Re: Why can’t you criticise

@P_G

quid-e-azam per woh aytraaz keray jis nay muslmano ya pakistan k ley 1 % bhi koi qurbaani dee ho..ajj kal k pakistani to apna moun band rakhain ..jin k damaghoon per aghyaar say maro’ob honay ki cherhbee cherh chukee hai

ajj kal fashion hay k kisi bare shakhsiyat ko pakro or us per tanqeed ker k apnae zahanat k jhanday gaaroo

muhibeen-e-watan ko sirf ik bat samjhnay ki zaroorat hay jub app ka fareeqe mukhalif app k mulk mazhab her cheez per nazrain gaarhay baithay hain k kis kis terah in ko kamzorion ko highlight ker in ko kharab ter dikhaya jayee

aysay mahool main bajaye yeh k app apnay logoon ko defend kerain ..app khud garhay khod khod ker duniya ko bata rahay hain k hamara yeh ghalat hay woh ghalat hai..

baray faislay ya ijtmaai faislay hamesha waqt or mahool k munasib hotay hain .. na app us maahol main thay na app us waqt main thay app kis terah tanqeed ker saktay hain …

with all due respect P_G

aap ka Quran main baar baar aai hui uss aayat ke baare main kiya khayal hai, jb kuffar kehte the ‘hum falan kaam iss liye kar rahe hain kiyunke humne apne aabo ajdaad ko yehi karte dekha.. iss liye yehi sahi hai’.

If this was approved, we didn’t see the change that Islam brought. Khuda na khasta hum apne founders ko wo darja to nahin de rahe jo Arab ke mushrik Habl, Manaat aur Uzza ko dete the?

[muqawwee123]

Re: Why can’t you criticise

@Southie

It didn’t go unnoticed that there was not a single “we” in your response.

As advised earlier, I’m talking for myself only

[P_G]

Re: Why can’t you criticise

@muqawwee123

I agree with most of the part of your post.

About your first para, I’m not asking about personal traits, how they live, what they own, what they ate / drink. I was asking for discussion of the actions which afterwards proved wrong.

I do agree that what Mr Jinah did had a reason and** he considered it best at that time. But he and other leaders were human beings and when their actions contributed to some bad results, why should not be such actions analysed from different perspectives (as you did in your post to a good extent)?**

nahi ajj kal k koi pakistani yeh haq nahi rakhta k un k actions jin ka result us k nazar main ghalat nikla woh un per tanqeed keray …

awal to yeh k itna he haqeeqat pasand agar ban’na hay to yeh zahir hai k is tanqeed say ab koi faida nahi honay wala ,na hee anay walay leaders nay us say kuch seekhna hay na hee un ko follow kerna hai

agar ajj koi uth ker quid-e-azam jaysay leader k un chand actios per taqreerain kerta hay.. to woh sirf or sirf ik ghalat taas’sur ko phaylaa raha hai 1 % faida bhi is say hasil nahi ho saktaa..agar hoa hay to saabit kerain!

[P_G]

Re: Why can’t you criticise

@muqawwee123

with all due respect P_G

aap ka Quran main baar baar aai hui uss aayat ke baare main kiya khayal hai, jb kuffar kehte the ‘hum falan kaam iss liye kar rahe hain kiyunke humne apne aabo ajdaad ko yehi karte dekha.. iss liye yehi sahi hai’.

If this was approved, we didn’t see the change that Islam brought. Khuda na khasta hum apne founders ko wo darja to nahin de rahe jo Arab ke mushrik Habl, Manaat aur Uzza ko dete the?

bilkul bhi nahi … main bar bar is bat ko dohra rahee hoon is waqt app ka mulk or mazhab jin bayroone saazishoon ka shikaar ho raha hay is main behtreen hikmat -e- amli apnay logoon ka DiF’fa hay …

app mere post say yeh result nikalain k mai kahoon unhoon nay jo kia sahe kia ,hum bhi wohe karain gay …to yeh ghalat hai

woh log guzar chukay or jo hamray ley ker k gayee us mai un ka ikhlaas or sachaaye per koi question mark nahi…agar kaheen ghalate hoye hay to ab murda garhay ukhaar ker duniya main apnay muhsneen ka tamasha mat banaain …bohat topics hain tanqeed k ley ..is baab ko band ker dain

[muqawwee123]

Re: Why can’t you criticise

@P_G

nahi ajj kal k koi pakistani yeh haq nahi rakhta k un k actions jin ka result us k nazar main ghalat nikla woh un per tanqeed keray …

awal to yeh k itna he haqeeqat pasad agar ban’na hay to yeh zahir hai k is tanqeed say ab kooi faida nahi honay wala ,na hee anay walay leaders nay us say kuch seekhna hay na hee un ko follow kerna hai

agar ajj koi uth ker quid-e-azam jaysay leader k u chand actios per taqreerain kerta hay to woh sirf or sirf ik ghalat taas’sur ko phaylaa raha hai 1 % faida bhi is say hasil nahi ho saktaa..agar hoa hay to saabit kerain!

main khud tanqeed barae tanqeed ke haq main nahin hoon. Its a useless exercise. What I’m talking about is to assess impact of different decision we took in different periods of our history from different perspective and make our coming generations to decide what will be the better option if they have to make such decision in future. After all, history is bound to repeat itself, who don’t learn lessons from past happenings.

[muqawwee123]

Re: Why can’t you criticise

@P_G

bilkul bhi nahi … main bar bar is bat ko dohra rahee hoon is waqt app ka mulk or mazhad jin bayroone saazishoon ka shikaar ho raha hay is main behtreen hikmat -e- amli apnay logoon ka DiF’fa hay …

app mere post say yeh result nikalain k mai kahoon unhoon na jo kia sahe kia ,hum bhi wohe karain gay …to yeh ghalat hai

apne logon ka difaa karne aur apne logon ke her ghalat aur sahi ka difaa karne main koi farq nahin?

[P_G]

Re: Why can’t you criticise

@muqawwee123

main khud tanqeed barae tanqeed ke haq main nahin hoon. Its a useless exercise. What I’m talking about is to assess impact of different decision we took in different periods of our history from different perspective and make our coming generations to decide what will be the better option if they have to make such decision in future. After all, history is bound to repeat itself, who don’t learn lessons from past happenings.

what will be the better option … yeh bat kerna bohat asaan hai sub k ley …or is main sub zor o shor say hissa lain gay ..lakian at the end yeh sirf or sirf behas mubahisa sabit ho gaa…her banday ko app is has’saas topic per zaban kholnay ki ijazat dain gay to bohat taqleef deh raweye samnay aain gay

yeh sub cheezain jub history main mehfooz hain to waqt anay per jin ko yeh faislay haqeeqtan laynay hoon gay woh waheen say sabaq lay lain gay ..is bat per itna focus he kion kia jaye k app sub ko dawat dain k woh aain or apne raye dain

app apnay is topic ki misaal lain is mai n bohat se post ayse hain jin ko sirf moqa chaeye tha k woh criticise ker sakain unhoon nay phir un k uthnay baithnay bolnay libaas sub per tanqeed shuru ker dee

or akhir main app likh dain respect apne jagah ?

@muqawwee123

apne logon ka difaa karne aur apne logon ke her ghalat aur sahi ka difaa karne main koi farq nahin?

apnay muhseneen ki woh ghalatian** jin ki bunyad main kisi sher fasaad ki neyat na thee** …un ka Dif’fa kerna app ki zimm-e-dare hai… kion k app un ki respect muhabbat ko rakhtay hoyee yeh tajzia kerain gay ..lakin is tajzeye ka app ka dushman kaisay faida lay ga ..app jaantay hain or anay wale nasal tak yeh batain kis shakal main pohnchain ge woh dekhnay k ley to hum or app zinda he nahi hon gay

[hareem01]

Re: Why can’t you criticise

@muqawwee123

My question : Is it distorted history that lead to such attitude or it is the attitude which lead to distorted history?

Most people are dumb and wouldn’t even bother to search for truth so yeah it’s the attitude.

[Monk]

Re: Why can’t you criticise

@muqawwee123

The line ‘Not every thing you read need to discussed. Some you could filter you self’ reminds me censorship of some dictators imposed in Pakistan

no.
It just remind me when I was 16 years old, what ever I read, I wanted to put forth as argument with every one. Then I learn censor non sense my self first.
Simple.